NGC Crossover Question
airplanenut
Posts: 22,148 ✭✭✭✭✭
NGC says they won't take the coin out of its holder unless it ties/meets the current grade- can I tell them to not reholder unless the grade is above the current grade?
Jeremy
Jeremy
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I dont see why you would not be able to do this, Although I have never done it. NGC is my favorite
service, followed by PCGS and ANACS. I do not use anyone else and will not use anyone else other
than the big three. Please let us know the result.
(Hypothetically, If you were to deliver a 2000lb laser guided bomb to Saddam Hussein's bunker,would
you prefer to be flying an F16,F117, or an A10, I would pick the A10, my favorite aircraft)
Brian.
The following quote is from John Maben, an NGC grading finalizer, on NGC's website answering the same question you are asking now:
"No. You must be willing to accept the same grade without stipulation for a higher grade, however we will grade it higher if the coin(s) meets our standards for the higher grade. We do not believe it is prudent to guarantee a higher grade (which is essentially what we would be doing if we were to do what you are asking) without being able to view the coin out of its holder first."
In any case, I've seen your scans of that pretty ASE or yours. Crack it out of the PCGS holder and send it in raw. Crossing over to NGC is as difficult as crossing to PCGS, meaning, it isn't done that often. I speak from experience. You have a much better chance of getting the coin graded correctly without introducing "holder bias".
Good Luck!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Brian.
Jeremy
Is there any reason that you think it would get body-bagged? There is always the possibility that any grading service will think it is AT. I believe that the services in general are usually pretty good detecting true AT'd coins. If you are convinced it is not, then everything should be cool. You also must consider that NGC could NOT cross it even at the same grade because they feel it is AT'd EVEN THOUGH it is in a PCGS holder. Any way you look at it you take a chance. Your best bet is to trust your grading skills, crack it out and send it in raw.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>don't I then face the risk? >>
The "game" is ALWAYS a risk Jeremy, but it IS fun! You win some, you lose some....
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Jeremy
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Jeremy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>In that case, the risk of re-submitting it would be worth the reward!
I like that feeling/thought
1- CRACKOUT
2- UPGRADE
3- BRAG
I got it down pat
To sleep so I can make it to the train station tomorrow alive
Don't crack the coin out - you always run a risk of downgrade, no matter how nice the coin looks to you or others.
Send it for crossover in the holder.
If NGC feels it is undergraded, they will grade it higher, evn though, as John Maben has said, you cannot send it in with that stipulation.
Based on my experiences I would submit airplanenut's coin with others like it but either just above or below in quality. To get the most for your submission fees you have to wait for some other coins to go with it. Since this grading thing is a game, why not put in every possible bias in your favor? The only bias you can't normally determine is who will be grading the coins that day. Though I am aware of some dealers who do track the graders and submit accordingly.
roadrunner
I'm leaving for L.A. right now to view the Bowers sale. I will be back later today and promise to answer your questions when I return.
Do the graders look at the holder and say, "hmmm, how did PCGS give such a low grade? There must be something wrong with the coin that we can't see- let's not upgrade it"
Or do they really say that there's nothing wrong, PCGS just a *tad* bit off?
If you are going to a larger show, you might bring the coin to the NGC booth and see if David Lange or John Maben will look at it and give you an opinion on the best course of action.
I agree with TDN about getting some top notch opinions on the color/quality first. If you get a consensus at that point then you can consider resubmitting it whether raw or holdered. But I firmly believe that you limit the upgrade potential by sending it back holdered. NGC's own x-over rate proves that.
roadrunner
I just got back from a new dealer today... according to him, the white patch on the back wasn't just covered, but covered with a label, possibly leaving some glue residue on the coin, thus dropping the grade... he said to get it off would mean to dip, but that would remove the toning, too. I don't know if there are any shows around anytime soon when I could get it to a grading company... maybe I could send it to someone going to Long Beach?
Jeremy
You asked:
<< <i> Mark, as an NGC grader did you always look at the coins in the order submitted? Or nearly always? I'm a firm believer in submitting coins in either an ascending or descending order of quality. I realize many forum members, dealers, and graders do not believe in this theory but IMO it helps. I know that NGC coins always comes back serialized in the order I submitted them. But that's no guarantee that the grader viewed them in that order. There may be one key coin in the grouping that if it makes the next higher grade it will more than pay for the costs of the submission. An example might be sending in two nicely toned 65-66 coins followed by a nicely toned borderline 63/64 coin. I will do this when the key coin of the group is the lowest grade of the group. Of course the coins have to be raw to eliminate holder bias, and either all toned or all white, preferably of similar types or designs so the graders can make comparisons. If I had say 4 killer toned Washingtons in the solid 66 range and one liner 67, I'd submit the liner 67 behind the killer 66's.
Based on my experiences I would submit airplanenut's coin with others like it but either just above or below in quality. To get the most for your submission fees you have to wait for some other coins to go with it. Since this grading thing is a game, why not put in every possible bias in your favor? The only bias you can't normally determine is who will be grading the coins that day. Though I am aware of some dealers who do track the graders and submit accordingly.
roadrunner
Text >>
As a grader at NGC (where I worked from 1991-1998), I did NOT necessarily look at the coins in the order in which they were submitted and I believe the same was true for the other graders. Not "nearly always" and probably not even most of the time. Sometimes, I'd start with the first coin or the last or one in between somewhere.
Knowing that causes me to chuckle to myself when I see or hear about dealers spending a lot of time planning and worrying about what order to place the coins in, in order to "get the best grades".
As a submitter, I think it is much more important to worry about grouping nice coins together, so that the submission builds upon itself and makes a good impression on the graders. If I have a coin with funny color or surfaces, I'd probably submit it seperately, so that it did no potentially affect the unquestionably nice coins in a negative way.
Yes, there is some bias in crossovers, but better safe than sorry, especially for non experts and where there is a lot of $ to be lost if the coin is cracked out and downgrades or no grades. If a coin crosses, but not at a higher grade and you firmly believe the grade should be higher, you can always resort to a regrade, in the new holder.
<< <i>
Just one quick question if I may (before I leave):
Do the graders look at the holder and say, "hmmm, how did PCGS give such a low grade? There must be something wrong with the coin that we can't see- let's not upgrade it"
Or do they really say that there's nothing wrong, PCGS just a *tad* bit off?
>>
I think the more likely scenario is the second one.
Jeremy
are you dropping cookies from this site?
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I appreciate your comments on "grading order." Anytime you have similar insights we'd appreciate your insights. How about the question of grading classic type coins. Given a standard grouping of say a dozen MS or PF 63-65 coins how long would you look at each one on average.....this is just a diff. way to ask the 10 second question??
roadrunner
<< <i>As a submitter, I think it is much more important to worry about grouping nice coins together, so that the submission builds upon itself and makes a good impression on the graders. >>
Thanks for the information Mark. I had no idea at all that how I "present" my submission could affect the grades my coins receive. I don't agree that it should. I'm putting together a submission (NGC is my plastic of choice) and will take what you've mentioned into consideration.
On the lighter side of this discussion, do you think sending my submission in a velvet lined box with a tape of some soothing sexy music that MUST be listened to when grading my submission would help my grades any? Maybe send a fruit basket and bottle of nice wine?
Cheers, and thanks again!
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
<< <i>do you think sending my submission in a velvet lined box with a tape of some soothing sexy music that MUST be listened to when grading my submission would help my grades any? Maybe send a fruit basket and bottle of nice wine?
No sexy music, Andy... try a sexy lady
Jeremy
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=127266&highlight_key=y
You asked:
<< <i>
Mark,
I appreciate your comments on "grading order." Anytime you have similar insights we'd appreciate your insights. How about the question of grading classic type coins. Given a standard grouping of say a dozen MS or PF 63-65 coins how long would you look at each one on average.....this is just a diff. way to ask the 10 second question??
roadrunner
Text >>
In regards to the 10 second question - I think most coins can be and are graded in less than 10 seconds by expert graders. Of course, there are some coins that take longer, for reasons such as :
1) being extremely small, like a Three Cent Silver or Gold Dollar, which might require use of a magnifier. I usually DON'T use a magnifier when grading, but do in those cases. And, before anyone jumps all over me for that - I can guarantee you that expert graders, because of their knowledge and training, often see things with the naked eye, that others wont see with a magnifier.
2) an especially important/valuable coin
3) a coin that has a particular characteristic requiring further examination to clarify what it is - for instance, is it a die crack or flaw or some man-made, post-striking flaw?
4) a coin might have a questionable added mint mark or altered date, etc.
There are other numerous other reasons that a coin can take longer than 5 to 10 seconds to grade, but many do not. and, I think some people forget that there is typically more than just one group of 3 graders at PCGS and NGC. You might have two groups working simultaneously or partially so.
I hope that helps.
<< <i>
<< As a submitter, I think it is much more important to worry about grouping nice coins together, so that the submission builds upon itself and makes a good impression on the graders. >>
Thanks for the information Mark. I had no idea at all that how I "present" my submission could affect the grades my coins receive. I don't agree that it should. I'm putting together a submission (NGC is my plastic of choice) and will take what you've mentioned into consideration.
On the lighter side of this discussion, do you think sending my submission in a velvet lined box with a tape of some soothing sexy music that MUST be listened to when grading my submission would help my grades any? Maybe send a fruit basket and bottle of nice wine?
Cheers, and thanks again!
Andy
Text >>
I wouldn't bother with the velvet lined box, the music or the wine - those only work on a few days each year and, unfortunately, I can't remember which ones
Regarding the presentation of the submission - I believe it can make a difference. It certainly doesn't have to.
<< <i> I usually DON'T use a magnifier when grading, but do in those cases. And, before anyone jumps all over me for that - I can guarantee you that expert graders, because of their knowledge and training, often see things with the naked eye, that others wont see with a magnifier. >>
I have noticed that most of the coin dealers I do business with DON'T use magnification when looking at most coins.
My question is this: How is it possible to assign a grade above MS65 without using magnification? Especially when such miniscule differences between 65,66,67,68,69,70 can translate into literally tens of thousands of dollars? Are you saying that over-all eye appeal outweighs the technical merits of a coin when grading at the professional level? Is grading SO subjective that buying very high mint state coins, for outrageous prices, is in reality a fool's errand because no one will ever agree? Is there REALLY such a beast as an MS70?
Thanks,
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
I promise to get back to you later today.
<< <i>My question is this: How is it possible to assign a grade above MS65 without using magnification? Especially when such miniscule differences between 65,66,67,68,69,70 can translate into literally tens of thousands of dollars? Are you saying that over-all eye appeal outweighs the technical merits of a coin when grading at the professional level? Is grading SO subjective that buying very high mint state coins, for outrageous prices, is in reality a fool's errand because no one will ever agree? Is there REALLY such a beast as an MS70?
Thanks,
Andy
Text >>
The vast majority of the "miniscule differences between 65,66,67,68,69.70" as you put it, can be and are detected by expert graders without the use of a magnifier. I'm speaking of things such as abrasions, hairlines, wiping or cleaning, wear, spotting, discoloration, unattractive toning, stains, environmental damage, PVC or PVC damage, striking weakness, luster, etc.
I do feel that if a coin is being considered for a grade of 69 or 70, a glass should be used, as we are speaking literally, about virtual or actual perfection at that point. Fortunately for me, when I graded at NGC I graded very few modern coins and didn't have to worry about that. I do believe there are coins which are correctly graded as MS or PF70, but they are modern enough and struck in large enough quantities so that I don't get excited about them. I'd much prefer an MS or PF65 coin from an earlier century, any day!
<< <i> I'd much prefer an MS or PF65 coin from an earlier century, any day! >>
I couldn't agree more! Thanks so much for all of your input Mark! It's helping me "de-mystify" what goes on in the world of professional grading. Perhaps there are a few more questions you could answer?
In your opinion:
Is there REALLY a fundamental difference between the grading standards of NGC and PCGS? Or ANACS for that matter.
Is there truth in the idea that third party grading services loosen or tighten these standards as a result of competition or market conditions?
Do standards intentionally change for dealers or others who make continuous large submissions?
I know that these are pretty sensitive questions, and I'll understand if you choose not to answer them. If you do, it will certainly help end a good deal of speculation that I have as a collector. It may also silence some of the raging arguments that go on in this forum. OR start new ones! Who knows?
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
You asked :
<< <i> your opinion:
Is there REALLY a fundamental difference between the grading standards of NGC and PCGS? Or ANACS for that matter.
Is there truth in the idea that third party grading services loosen or tighten these standards as a result of competition or market conditions?
Do standards intentionally change for dealers or others who make continuous large submissions?
I know that these are pretty sensitive questions, and I'll understand if you choose not to answer them. If you do, it will certainly help end a good deal of speculation that I have as a collector. It may also silence some of the raging arguments that go on in this forum. OR start new ones! Who knows?
>>
Tough questions which I can't possibly answer quite correctly, but here goes. I wont speak about ANACS because I don't look at and haven't seen enough of their coins to have a clue.
I don't feel (and please remember, this post is just my personal opinion and I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me) that there is a fundamental difference in the grading standards between PCGS and NGC. That is not to say, however, that each service isn't more strict in grading in certain areas. That is also not to say that each doesn't grade plenty of coins too conservatively or too liberally. They are both really good grading services but they are not perfectly/wonderfully consistent, because grading is too subjective for that to occur.
I do believe that PCGS and NGC have changed their standards from time to time, possibly due to competitive pressures. One example is the grading of the Eliasberg coins which was very liberal, as both PCGS and NGC wanted Eliasberg coins in their holders.And, it's a shame, because, between the two of them, they own a huge share of the coin grading market and there is plenty of business for each, without having to change the standards, however briefly or minimally .
Regarding large submitters - I'm sure that PCGS and NGC want to keep their largest customers happy. It would shock me if the largest customers didn't get better customer service or more sympathetic ears lsitening to their complaints about grading, at the very least.
I don't intend or expect to silence any arguments on this board, only to answer questions informatively and truthfully, when I feel I am qualified to answer them at all. And hopefully, I wont start too many arguments either.
it came from an honest guy. Well said. Bear
Camelot