Remember my $3 gold coin?

coindaughter

Here is the original discussion.

I'm sorry to say that you guys were right. The coin is counterfeit. I got the coin back today, and here is ANACS's reply (see attachment).

Questions: what does "struck copy" mean, exactly? Is there any gold in it? Is there a market for couterfeit coins?

I'm thinking about writing a letter to the dealer, but I know there is nothing we can do. The transaction was 20 years ago.

My family and I are grateful for your help. I'm amazed that you pegged it so quickly. It would've been much worse if we had tried to sell it as genuine. Now I'm worried about some of his other coins!

Any sympathy will be accepted.

(edited to fix attachment)

itsnotjustme

My sympathy.

If you know the dealer he bought it from, you can try... if it's counterfeit now, it was then and the sale was illegal.

Placid

Thats really too bad. It probably is gold and worth the gold value at least.
Someone might buy it anyway as some people collect fakes or can't afford the real thing.
Put it on eBay as a fake with a reserve of the gold value and see what happens.

As for going back to the original seller. I guess it is worth a try but it has been several years and the seller would have no way of knowing for sure the coin you show is the coin that matches the receipt.

Here is another thread you might have missed.

Link

coindaughter

Dang! Dad had a few $2 1/2 and a bunch of $5. The coins are not in my possession...they are 1000 miles away, or I would put them up for you guys to see. I have a bad feeling.....

gmarguli

I doubt you can get anything from the dealer. Just try and prove it is the coin he sold. Sorry.

truthteller

A struck copy means that the dies used to strike the fake were made from actual counterfeit dies. The dies were made outside the mint, the gold used is usually 75-85% pure instead of 90%, giving the appearance of US mint coin product with luster and nice detail, but not good enough to pass those who know. The gold in itself was not the only valuable part, it was the ability to pass the coin off as a US coin. It was probably a contemporary counterfeit and traded as such in commerce. The US dollar value was over the gold value, so even though the gold was intrinsic, the dollar value made it profitable to counterfeit.

TRUTH

KlectorKid

sorry to hear that i would put it on ebay as fake and try to get some money back if u cant prove the dealer sold it to u.

robertpr

I'm really sorry to hear about this and hope his other coins turn out to be genuine. At least ANACS noted that your order was well prepared.

abuell

Put the coin up for sale as a fake and rest assured that whomever buys it will quickly have it back up on eBay with no reference to its being counterfeit.

Pushkin

Coindaughter,

Sorry to hear about the results from ANACS. I agree that putting it on eBay as a fake might get you something back. As was noted here (Placid's post, others), if it was a contemporary fake, you night do quite a bit better than just the gold content if you can make contact with some of the collectors that like these counterfeits. I don't know how you would get information about this "subculture" of collectors, but they are out there.

There is always the option of trying an Internet search for collectors of counterfeit coins. I would take some time to research the value of fakes so if you do put it up for sale on the Internet, you get a fair price. Don't give up on your other gold coins yet.

I've heard that a lot of fake $3s exist; your other coins may be OK.

jtryka

Sorry to hear that, and I suppose you can try to go back to that dealer, but it would be difficult. As for the other coins (half and quarter eagles you mentioned), I wouldn't be quite as worried about those, as it seems $1 and $3 gold are teh most frequently faked. Although there are fakes of half and quarter eagles, I wouldn't necessarily assume that all your father's coins are counterfeit.

cointagious

contrary to what has written in this thread, it is illegal to sell/trade in a counterfeit coin, in and of itself. there are a couple exceptions for it to legally change hands.

Pushkin

Cointagious is correct about the legality - but it doesn't seem to stop the trading form going on. What are the laws/limitations? When can you expect the Secret Service to haul you away; legally, aren't you supposed to turn in all counterfeit coins/currency?

Might make for an interesting thread?

gmarguli

These are not counterfeits that are trading hands. These are "collector reproductions" that were made before the Hobby Protection Act of the 1970's.

Gilbert

Coindaughter

Too bad your coin isn't genuine. I would, however, like to commend you on your approach to the whole issue; inquiring in the forum, following up with ANACS, and coming back to inform the forum of the results.

Too many times, similar situations turn out that the individual either already knew or suspected the coin was a fake and was simply trying to see if it would pass, or didn't attempt to authenticate the coin, or went ahead and tried to sell on ebay or some other forum. As a matter of fact, I can't recall any other instances where someone who inquired about a coin, came back to the forum with a positive result (I sent it to ..., I won't sell it, or what you've done).

Kudos to you; you're a "trooper" in my book.

coindaughter

Thanks, Gilbert, and all of the forum members, for their comments and help. It is nice to receive the kudos from you, Gilbert! Thanks for the message!

I have a very clear mission: to learn as much as I can so that I can guide my family in the disposition of my dad's coins, honestly and fairly for us and the buyers.

I have found this forum to be invaluable. You all have given me very good advice, especially in this case. I hang around here maybe more than I should. (The kids haven't eaten for two days....kidding! I know my mom and siblings are lurking here....) But it is fun and informative, and I plan to ask you tons more questions along the way!

Thanks!!

lathmach

<< <i>Put the coin up for sale as a fake and rest assured that whomever buys it will quickly have it back up on eBay with no reference to its being counterfeit. >>


...................................................


That is only your OPINION.
I collect counterfeits, and have never sold one to anyone; even to another counterfeit collector.
Something you may find interesting is that I've paid more for contemporary counterfeits of coins in the seated series, than genuine examples of the same, would sell for.
I really doubt that this $3 Gold piece is a contemporary counterfeit. These were heavily counterfeited for sale to unsuspecting collectors because of their collector value.
Because of it being modern, it is probably made of gold though, where if it were contemporary it would be base metal and gold washed.

Ray

coindaughter

How will I be able to tell if it is modern or contemporary, and how much gold is in it?

wallstreetman

WEIGH IT!

coindaughter

<< <i>WEIGH IT! >>



Then what? What would it weigh being contemporary, and what being modern? Does anyone know where I can go to get an accurate weight?

Thank you for your help.

Gilbert

Since "contemporary" counterfeits are collectible, I would have thought ANACS would have apprised you of that when they examined it. The ANAAB was the place for such an inspection, but, I don't know if they have already discontinued service as of yet.

Karen, I suppose you could PM Lathmach or start a thread asking about evaluating collectible counterfeits.

nwcs

It's very unlikely that it is a contemporary fake. Most likely it was done for two reasons: numismatic value of the coin (a semi-key) or to make a way for people to own non-bullion gold before owning bullion gold was illegal (a period of 1933-1976 if memory serves). I bet it is the former.


There are several ways of producing a die. The best method I'm aware of is a transfer die which makes a new hub based on an existing coin and then makes dies from that to strike. Another common die struck method is spark erosion.

Weighing is a very important part of proper diagnostics for these. But not weight alone. You need to do a specific gravity test. The weight part can be done with a scale that measures to the hundredths or thousandths (preferred) of a gram. Check out this video for information on counterfeits. It's very good. https://ssl.boulder.net/ana/webstore/index.cgi?product=Videos&&cart_id=4029676_32731

RLinn

Coindaughter, sorry to hear of your disappointing discovery. I am, however, encouraged by the approach you have taken to your dad's collection. It speaks volumes about your respect for your dad. Please don't let a counterfeit coin in any way alter your perception of you dad's collecting abilities. Many top dealers have learned about particular counterfeits the hard way, like you, but all have not been as forthright after making the discovery. I just hope my daughter takes the honorable approach you have taken when she faces the same circumstances.

coinnerd

Don't give up on contacting the original dealer. There is no time limit on returning counterfeits. It can't hurt to contact them. You have the receipt and a letter from ANACS stating it is not real. If you have the original holder the coin came in that would be a bonus. I am not impressed with this dealer but you never know they may do the right thing and refund the sale price.

gmarguli

From the original thread: " Dad bought it in February, 1982 from Paul Sims Rare Coins and Precious Metals Broker, Richmond Virginia."

Paul Sims. Does anyone not know about the quality of coins this scumbag sells? Perhaps some forum members could post their experiences with him.

Also: "This coin was purchased 20 years ago. I don't know what was paid"

If it was from Paul Sims it was probably too much.

Now for the good news and the bad new.

The good news: He is an ANA/PNG member and as such he should have to make good on this transaction. If not file a complaint with both organizations. I'll admit that both organizations are basically useless and pathetic, but they might get off their fat self-serving asses long enough to actually help someone.

The bad news: All you might get back is the original purchase price. It is quite possibly that the melt value of this "coin" would be much higher than that.

I'd ask for replacement of the coin or what would be fair market value should it have been real. At the very least you should get the original purchase price + the 20 years of inflation.

dorkkarl

hey contagious, i'd be interested to get some reference on what you're saying. i have always understood that a counterfeit sold as such is a legal transaction. i own a couple of counterfeits myself, that i bought as such. of course i realize that striking coutnerfeits to pass as legal tender is bogus though.

agreed w/ the idea of selling it on ebay. a better way to describe it might be "imitation" of a 3$ gold. i'd be interested myself, but the price would probably skyrocket. it's worth your while to find out if it was struck on a gold plan, or a gilt slug.

K S

Conder101

They use the term "struck copy" to indicate that it was struck from dies rather than being cast.

Weight is important in determining whether or not it was contemporary because when these coins were circulating, their value was dependant on them containing nearly the full face values worth of metal in the coin. So in order for the conterfeiter to make any money he had to short the amount of gold in the coin. This resulted in the coin either being light in weight or deficient in the gold fineness from more alloy being added to bring the weight back up to standard. (If the weight is right and the fineness is low the coin will be larger in size, usually thicker, and the specfic gravity will be low.) On modern fakes the countereiter made his money on the difference between the gold value and the collector value. Since an off weight counterfeit would be very easy to spot and the collector value was much higher than the gold value it wasn't worth the detection risk for the counterfeiter to short the amount of gold in the coin. So modern fakes are usually correct in weight and fineness.

dorkkarl

oops, wrong thread - sorry
K S