5 to 10 seconds to grade a coin?

LucyBop

Hmmmmm..... Send in a Franklin and hope for a FBL in 5 to 10 seconds? Maybe 2 1/2 seconds on the obverse and then another 2 1/2 to 5 seconds to determine if its Full Bell? geez, and to think that I study these trying to learn everything I can about the bell lines and areas of the coin that determines if its a well struck coin. Pick up any of your raw coins and count to ten as you are looking at it, can you really grade it this fast? I know that PCGs has professional graders but.........

gmarguli

It depends on the coin. 10 seconds for a MS Morgan is too much time. Modern commemoratives shouldn't take nearly 10 seconds.

LucyBop

So in under 10 seconds they can determine if a modern commem. is PR69dcam or PR70dcam? Those cats are good then.

braddick

No- ten seconds to determine it is NOT a PR70DCAM. If, within that time frame the grader is not seeing a problem I'm sure he continues then to look (now under magnification) until he does see a problem that would preclude the 70 grade or he doesn't.

These guys look at hundreds of coins weekly (if not thousands). If they can't spot a hairline or a speck within ten seconds they would be in the wrong business.

gmarguli

PR70 takes more time because they will use a glass for that. Probably 5 seconds max to tell PR68 from PR69.

stujoe

PR69CDAM or PR70DCAM? I can do that in under 10 seconds easy. I just timed myself and it only took me 4 seconds to flip a coin. It came up tails, PR69DCAM it is.

braddick

<< <i>PR69CDAM or PR70DCAM? I can do that in under 10 seconds easy. I just timed myself and it only took me 4 seconds to flip a coin. It came up tails, PR69DCAM it is. >>


Of course after flipping it, it is now a PR66CAM.

dan1ecu

That’s incredibly fast! They probably see hundreds and hundreds of examples of each series in each grade that they can almost instantaneously recognize what the grade is. I wonder if grading is so second nature to them that they can’t help but grade any change that comes their way. I would worry at that point...

Dan

RotatedRainbows

Your forgetting that they also carefully examine the coin to be sure it is genuine so they not only grade both sides in that time but they also authenticate it as well.

gmarguli

Most coins they see they don't have to authenticate. When was the last time you saw a counterfeit state quarter.

LucyBop

I have a Turbo Charged 2110cc VW drag car that runs mid 11's in a quater mile, and those cats can grade and authenticate 2 coins before I hit end of a quarter mile. Its amazing baby! This is not meant to be a PCGs bashing thread, it just blows me away how quick this really is. I only buy PCGs and still will and when I send my 53s Franklin I hope I get more time, like maybe 15 seconds?

braddick

Hey, with that horsepower you should be in the ten's. What's wrong with you?!

Seriously, look at your watch. Check as ten seconds go by. It really is a fair amount of time for the typical coin.

I can't do it, but come see any of us after we've graded thousands of coins, eight hour shifts...

stujoe

<< <i> Of course after flipping it, it is now a PR66CAM. >>



No way! I wear gloves when I flip... errr... I mean... grade them!

In all seriousness. 10 seconds is probably an average and seems like a realistic average to me. Some coins might take a little longer (as in 20 seconds and I am sure an even smaller amount require a little consultation or something else) but if you job is to grade coins and you do it hour after hour, day after day with thousands of coins, 10 seconds should be a pretty realistic timeframe. From the way I have always thought of it...It is factory work/assembly line type work and speed comes with repetition.

LucyBop

If only Lucy's Rockin' Radio Franklin Half collection could move this fast up the ranks of the registry sets! That would be really boss Daddy-o!

JJacks

Lucy, please realize also that this is not only PCGS that grades in this manner (as far as I know!). I think the other major grading services probably grade MS63-65 Morgans in 5-10 seconds as well, with other coins obviously taking more time because of attribution, or if they are coins they don't see as often. Also, remember that 3 graders view the coin, so if they all look for say 10 seconds and say '64', '64', '64', it is probably a 64, and staring at the coin for a while probably won't change that! I do agree that it seems like coins with FBL, Full Steps, etc to check would take longer.

JJacks

LucyBop

Judging some of the ACG coins I have seen, they must grade blindfolded and at a second a coin. Tops!

TheNumish

Those guys are slow.

I can grade that coin in 4.2 seconds!!!!

Seriously, those guys have graded so many coins they are like machines. They don't even have to think about it. It's just second nature.

wingedliberty

Numish:
I am at 5 seconds with you. Professional graders look at hundeds of coins each day. We all would
be that good if we did. Many large dealers are as well. This is common sense. Any profession is
the same, whether you are a brain surgeon or putting together widgets. Human beings adapt to
repetitive stimuli.

Brian.

truthteller

Frankly, 10 seconds to grade a MS Morgan is utter nonsense. The coin must be picked up, using a magnifying glass, then making sure to differentiate for the date and mintmark, since each year and each mint has different grading characteristics, a jugdement must be determined. Yes, each grader has expertise and a background, but to give a grade for differing coins of a series takes time. Why not experiment on your own? Take 10 different Morgans, all different dates, mixed with commons and better dates and see. I could grade 100 1881s in that speed, but you mix in 1884cc's and 1889cc's as well as a few 1891o's and it's a different ballgame, especially when an 89cc and 91o can jump from thousands to tens of thousands. Then, you add in color to the mix, which requires eye appeal, you're adding on time. 30 seconds minimum to ACCURATELY grade. Unless you grade on the SAFE SIDE and conservatively, then grading a MS66 Morgan as a MS64 is no problem. Now, the graders have no vested interest in the coin, so why take time. I GUARANTEE, if the PCGS graders were BUYING the coins, they would take MUCH, MUCH more time that 30 seconds per coin. Frankly, I could give my opinion that a cherry '57 chevy is excellent condition by kicking the tires, but if I look under the hood and see no engine, the car is a no grade. If I were buying something, you bet I would take my time. MY 3 cents.

TRUTH

LucyBop

<< <i>I am at 5 seconds with you. Professional graders look at hundeds of coins each day. We all would be that good if we did. Many large dealers are as well. This is common sense. Any profession is the same, whether you are a brain surgeon or putting together widgets. Human beings adapt to
repetitive stimuli. >>



Well, maybe the Hepkitty doesn't have 'common sense' but when I think about this I get dizzy baby......Lets see at 5seconds a pop, thats 12 coins a minute which turns into 720 an hour which then in a 8 hour shift turns into 5760 and figure a five day week and you get 28,800 and in a month.........Oh shoot, where is my margarita, it needs more tequila!!!! I hope those cats are listening to Doo Wop and 1950s Rockabilly while they are grading!


_____________________________
Lucille's Rockin' Radio

wingedliberty

Thanks for your input , in all due respect, the average PCGS grader has seen 250,000+ coins, when
you reach that figure, you will be able to grade a coin in 5 seconds. Most graders don't even use a
glass. Remeber that the big three use two graders minimum and a finalizer. Magnification is used
rarely, and mostly for die varieties and authentication purposes. This is a fact.


Brian.

truthteller

Brian,

what you say is probably true. Now, would you BUY a $1000 coin without using a magnifying glass. If graders DO NOT use magnifying glasses, it just adds to the credibility problems with grading services as a whole. Collectors must be able to use tools correctly, why not the grading services?

TRUTH

wingedliberty

Yes, I have done it, I bought , sightunseen an NGC 1916D merc in Fine12.

Brian.

truthteller

Brian,

I meant 'unholdered' coin. Anyone can buy a $1000 sight unseen IN a holder.

TRUTH

IrishMike

Well dagnabit I tried to stay away from this post, but I couldn't, these graders don't use magnification, why because they are grading it not buying it. The reason so many coins get upgraded or downgraded is because they only take 5-10 seconds to grade a coin. One grade point can be the difference of several hundred or several thousands of dollars on a coin. Personally I would rather have Bingham, shylock or Stewart grade my coins. Just remember these graders aren't playing the game with their money, it's ours.

darktone

truthteller- I have bought several $1,000+ coins without using a glass. I find many new collectors use high magnafication and overlook the obvious problems while counting contact marks on a coin that has no original surface left. mike

Gilbert

Truthteller,

I'm with you.

IrishMike

I also agree that the time factor may definitely be why those who complaining about a variety of grading problems, and the lack of consistency in grading, are experiencing those particular problems. You guys aren't the same defending this 5 - 10 second grading issue, are you?

Personally, I think it leads to complacency.

JJacks

I don't think anyone is implying they should be "staring" at the coins. You only focus on one spot by staring, and that goes out of focus after a while.

TheNumish

I agree with most of what wingedliberty said. Except I do think the graders do use magnification. It probably depends on the coin.

The best graders out there don't use magnification when grading coins. When I've gone to shows to buy and sell coins I rarely use a glass. I've done whole shows without using it once.

This brings up a point I've always wanted to make. When grading a coin you shouldn't have to use anything stronger than a 5x glass. Everything you need to see can be seen. To look for varieties or authenticity a stronger magnification is neccessary. I think when you use something stronger than a 5X glass it tends to make one focus on minor flaws and lose the overall grade of the coin.

roadrunner

You go Truthteller! Regardless of what the grading services may do, where the real grading occurs (at least for classic coins worth several hundred dollars or more) is at the auction viewing. Money is on the line. Splitting grade differences down to single tenths of a point is critical. I've never personally timed any of the top buying dealers in the viewing but I'd bet their times fall far closer to what Truthteller says (30 sec/coin). It may be that the time the services save on State Quarters they can allow a little more time on other coins

Would be interesting if a member who is out at Fall Long Beach does a little survey for a few minutes ing some of the top graders/buyers who are viewing coins and present that after the show.

roadrunner

LucyBop

Lucy is a big fan of PCGs and has never doubted that they are professionals that have a very high skill level when it comes to grading coins. When I compare my MS65 Franklin with any of my MS64's there is a noticable difference. The 65 is a true Gem witn maybe one tiny nic that is hidden on Frankies shoulder. Yet it still amazes me that within 5 seconds one can make a determination that may be thousands of dollars in value. A FBL Frankie jumps dramaticly in value between MS64-MS66. And I hear and understand some of the points being made that they see thousands of coins and can very quickly rule out a MS66 or MS65 but I still wish they would slow it down a little. PCGs whats the hurry? I guess time is money, but whatever grade you give me on a coin I have submitted is money to me as well.




_____________________
the HepKitty

BNE

Boy, this sure makes me feel silly for staring at my submissions under a 5x glass for several minutes internally debating what the coin will "go." I'd probably get a more accurate impression waving the slab around in front of my face!

This is an astonishingly quick amount of time. To me, it indicates that PCGS may not have internalized how significant its activities are to the collector community, and that PCGS is currently understaffed. I think the grading time may very well be a function of having to keep up with heavy volume (while keeping down personnel costs) more than extraordinarily swift and precise grading abilities.

It also emphasizes that "first impressions count." Eye appeal and "gestalt" evidently play more of a role in PCGS grading than I thought previously.

JJacks

A few replies here:

1. Please don't compare a dealer grading for possible purchase to PCGS grading. The dealer is certainly thinking about How much they need the coin, if they like the look of the coin in their inventory, etc. A PCGS grader looks at the coin, assigns a grade and knows they have the backing that at least 2 others will look at it. If they make an obvious mistake, it won't go out as such unless the others all make the same mistake! I really doubt it is common that the three grades given (for a Morgan for example) are '65', '62', '67' very often! They are usally right on in agreement with each other or off by 1 point, and then the finalizer decides on the final number

2. PCGS I don't beleive is the only grading company that does it with this speed. I bet NGC uses about the same amount of time, so I don't think it is fair to criticize PCGS only. Maybe we need to get info from NGC about the amount of time they spend.

3. Ok, fine forget Staring - Looking at the coin for longer usually won't change the grade!

4. If PCGS started taking 30 seconds on common Morgan $s, submission times could go through the roof, and people would complain.

5. If PCGS started taking 30 seconds on common Morgan $s, and hired more graders so that they could still be quick, submission prices could go through the roof, and people would complain. Also, they may have to higher less skilled graders then.

6. Remember that you are always free to resubmit coins if you feel there was an error. Yes, it does cost money, but if you really beleive they were wrong, you do have that option. I think PCGS is a bit on the conservative side so that the Franklins they grade MS65, like Lucy says are nicer then the 64 counterparts. I also have a few 65s, with a bunch of 64s, and the 65s are the nicest of them all.

7. Other low ball grading companies for all I know may spend 5 minutes grading coins (they probably could use the study!), and they still overgrade 95% of what they are sent. There appears to be no correlation between taking alot of time to grade a coin and getting it right.

JJacks

Blade

We can do some easy math here and verify this.

In a recent month, PCGS certified 130,000 coins. Another month was close to 100,000. Let's use the 100K figure as a ballpark average.

Number of working days in the usual month is 22. That means 4,545 coins through per day.

Each coin goes through 3 graders and a finalizer. This means 4 grades per coin or 18,180 individual gradings per day.

Let's assume that a productive day is 7 hours long for a grader (bathroom breaks, staff meetings, etc - probably generous). That means 2,597 gradings per hour.

There are 6 PCGS graders per Rick Montgomery's Q&A answer. That means 432 gradings per hour per grader.

432 gradings / 3,600 seconds per hour = 8.3 seconds per coin per grader.

Wow. Think about that. This includes time to get it from the tray, grade it, put it back, and type the rating in the computer. No more than 5 seconds spent on the coin itself. And this goes on continously - all day, every day.

I know some of you think this would be a dream job. To me, it would be a monotonous nightmare.

roadrunner

I disagree about the concept of how badly a dealer wants the coin for inventory or for a client, plays in the auction PR's. While this is true a lot of times, the top graders that can split grading hairs fairly consistently, primarily go after coins that fall near the upper end of the spectrum (in their opinion). And usually it is irrelevant as to what type of coin it is. Gold, silver, copper, etc. They seize the opportunity to get a grade bump no matter where it falls. Just guessing I'd say 30% or more of the dollar value of the auction lots at major sales go to someone looking for a grade bump that most others didn't see. Whether they get it or not is a different story. I see this trend at sales much more than dealers looking for coins for clients. It's tough to buy nice coins for clients at auction because you have to compete against the graders who always see another tenth of a point or two that you didn't. There are very few top retail dealers who do their buying right out of the auctions. Most wait for the coins to come to them, often downgraded


roadrunner

swissmiss45

How much do they charge for the 10 seconds of work and what would that work out to an hour?
swissmiss45

swissmiss45

Sorry to intrude but I would think the eyesight of the grader would have a lot to do with whether they us a glass or not. Kind of like umpires-blindness isn't a benefit to a grader I'd bet.
swissmiss45

Gilbert

JJacks,

I agree that looking at a coin longer doesn't change the grade, and for that matter, not looking at it at all isn't going to change the grade, but, a careful study/look/examination (however you want to describe this process) CAN make you reconsider your first impression, and to my mind, in 5 to 10 seconds, that is about all you are really going to get.

I am not paying for an impression OR rather, if an impression is the extent of what I am supposed to expect for my money, then that is how it should be advertised.

I guess as long as one can fall back on assigning grades based on its marketability and the subjectivity of "eye appeal," which I don't really believe is GENERALLY so far apart amongst like-minded persons, the debate is essentially moot.

As long as people continue to receive coins with debris (however minor) in the slab, scratched up BRAND NEW slabs, typographically incorrect labels, and the other little missteps that come with lack of attention to detail, why would anybody accept the 5 - 10 second argument - particularly when so many as unsatisfied with the grade(s) they get for their expenditure. The graders on the payroll are NOT the only competent graders in the world.

Surely, at some time during your career, you have been REQUIRED cut a corner or to to meet a deadline, quota, maybe some overall goal beyond your control. It happens everywhere else, why not PCGS?

Pushkin

5 to 10 seconds? Ridiculous! Waste of precious time. Some grading services (in yonder land of oranges and flamingos, and the Fountain of Youth) have advanced beyond visual inspection, they just have a personal computer randomly assign a grade. Saves time and money, all for as little as $5 a pop! Other similar services charge a little more, but they have nicer plastic, their owners go to higher class hair stylists, and their alphabet soup business names come later in the alphabet.