I know this has been beaten like a dead horse, but...

mnmcoin

How do you define artificial toning? Is it toning a coin on purpose through a normal way that coins tone, ie albums or envelopes or mint set holders or is it using a chemical, like a liquid or something that when applied directly to the coin it starts to tone. I guess that is sort of leading, and if you read between the lines, you can probably tell how I define artificial. I understand that artificial toning does take on a particular look, but aren't we talking about the method, as in artificial method of toning. I have taken coin out of old bankwrapped rolls myself as well as old 47-58 mint sets and some of the coins have that at look to them.

SO anyway, really when were are talking artificial we are talking about the actual method that the coin attains its color...right?

Also the second part to this, would be I sure would love to know, PCGS and NGC criteria for deciding at or no at, at least a generic answer would be nice.

morris <><

Russ

Something I've always wondered about. Why would anybody beat a dead horse?

Russ, NCNE

Placid

Sounds like a good post for the q&a section .

DHeath

Does Rick keep horses?

coolcoinz

good question.

uncool responses.

DHeath

Morris, I thought for a while about your question, and joking aside, I couldn't think of a single good definition. If you say it's intentional toning, how about folks who today are storing their coins in high sulphur content paper? If you say assisted toning, it's not exactly true either. How about faster than normal toning? According to the services, that might not be detectable (i.e. storing on a window sill). How about, this doesn't look right for this coin? Maybe it should just mean adding chemicals or heat.

braddick

Specific intent vs no intent.

coynclecter

So if I store my coins in high sulfur paper envelopes it would only be AT if I "intended" them to tone. So let's rename it IT for "Intentional Toned"

Frankly its either "attractive toning" or "ugly toning", how it got that way is really not important since no one can consistantly determine it anyway. The big deal that makes AT so taboo is that it scares the heck out of all those who paid 10X market for a coin to think that someone can duplicate thier "monster" in the kitchen sink. In the future, when the time comes that the processes are perfected anyone can purchase a coin and have it "toned" to order before shipping.

Coyn

dorkkarl

why do you care so much about pcgs & ngc criteria? ALL crazy colors are artful toning. the only issue is whether it happened yesterday and took ten seconds to apply in the easy-bake oven, or if it took ten years to apply.

i guess if your looking for a criteria, that would be it. but to think that plastic companies are consistent in what they reject for AT, is ludicrous

K S

Conder101

<< <i>Something I've always wondered about. Why would anybody beat a dead horse? >>



Tenderizing.

Russ

At last! An answer!

Russ, NCNE

RLinn

I'm calling the ASPCA. Even if this thing is dead, I still think its cruelty.

For me, natural toning occurs as a by-product of expected occurences (intended or otherwise) of routine circulating and storing of coins. This includes bags, folders (even high sulpher content), windowsills, etc. I see AT as blatant attempt to accelerate or imitate these otherwise natural processes. For example my hair has turned gray by the natural process of marriage and parenting. Now I could AT it, but I just don't care.

jom

I still maintain that if a coin is pretty buy it if you like it. Who cares if it's AT? I know people are going to argue the "well, if it's AT it isn't original" card but collectors buy whizzed and tooled early classic coins all the time. Can that be any worse than AT? I'd say it was. If you desire a particular coin buy it, otherwise forget it and go on to the next coin.

jom

coynclecter

My goodness Rlinn

My hair doesn't have that "natural grey" anymore, I've tampered with. Does that mean If I visit PCGS they'll send me home in a body bag!!!

dorkkarl

these are MY guidelines, as worthless as the rest of my opinions:

a coin with "original" tone acquired it from it's intended purpose, ie. circulation. (as someone pointed out elsewhere, early proofs that were intended to be stored in tissue paper would be original if the toning is consistent).

artificial tone happens when the tone is acquired outside the intended purpose, ie. a high-grade coin pulled from circulation and stored in a album might get artificial tone , though it may be highly desirable.

note that artificial tone can be "good" or "bad", depending on whether YOU like it or not, regardless of where it came from.

K S

MikeSettles

I am new to collecting and don't know what I am talking about, but would like to comment so that I may learn and understand.

It seems to me that cerifying a coin should be for the purpose of having an indepenant third party evaluate the quality and authenticity of a coin so the buyer can be confident of what he or she is buying.

To alter a coin's appearance by artificial toning, whizzing or cleaning should have no bearing on whether the coin is certified. If the coin is genuine and has been cometically altered, why not just state the alteration as part of the grade.

This way the buyer knows what he or she is getting and if they like what has been done they will buy the coin otherwise they won't.

If natually toned coins are more desirable than AT coins with the same look, then they will command a higher price.

Criticism please...

coinnerd

ANACS does this. They're a great place to send coins with slight problems to get a net grade.

DHeath

Conder, that's sick. Hysterical, but sick.

RLinn

<< <i>My hair doesn't have that "natural grey" anymore >>



Coynclecter, I guess that makes you AT and I'm going for Blast White...both have been slammed on the boards in prior posts.

dorkkarl

MikeSettles is 100% right on.

K S

mnmcoin

Thanks for all the posts...even the stupid ones. I love a good laugh.

MikeSettles- For a new collector you sure have a good take on this. I tend to like your opinion and really wish PCGS and NGC could adopt some variation if not verbatim your idea. Basically just grade the coin and state an opinion...I have bought many coins in holders that I didn't agree with the grade either way, why should it differ with toning?

morris <><

wingedliberty

Yes, you are beating a dead horse. Its the same horse that was beaten with the three prior posts by
you where you presented us with the Lincolns and Franklins that had the horrible orange with black
spots. This is the definition of AT.

Brian.

swissmiss45

Probably believe it's just resting and if they beat it it will get up and work some more. Some people are not to bright that way.
swissmiss45

wallstreetman

dorkkarl, Original Tone? Original Tone would be Blast White etc....The way it came from the Mint!

wallstreetman

PCGS would not want to get into how much whizzing, toning etc....equals a certain point drop, so they just bodybag.

EVillageProwler

Original Tone would be Blast White etc....

Ahhh... The mind of a superlative thinker at work. Can anyone here say ``oxymoron?''

``Original toning'' is a phraseology used in this industry to indicate toning that's been acquired over a very long period of time and as such have a certain feel or look of depth to it.

EVP

DHeath

Hey Mike,

Your name sure is familiar to me. Have we done any business? BTW - my real take on the toning/dipping thing is more a matter of personal taste. I don't buy blast white coins that aren't moderns, and I don't care if a 1950 forward coin has been dipped if I can't tell. I have come to appreciate color alot, but I prefer impressionists to cartoonists, and I don't like excessive, wild, or dark toning. To each his own.

cladking

The top ten reasons to beat a dead horse;

10. It's good exercise.

09. You're still ticked off.

08. As a lesson to the other horses.

07. Keeps the flies off.

06. You think it might not be dead enough yet.

05. You're still not happy with it's performance.

04. It's good practice for the next one that ticks you off.

03. How do you know it's really dead unless you beat it.

02. Sheer boredom.

and the number 1 reason to beat a dead horse?

01. To make sure it stays dead.

pmh1nic

cladking

Do you write for Dave Letterman .

As for artificial toning is concerned I think intent plays a part. I also thing certainty of outcome plays a part. If someone has developed a process that can consistently produced a desired set of results that plays into MY definition of artificial toning.


One of the things I find fascinating about rainbow, monster toned coins is how the colors and patterns through no intentional manipulation came into being. The fact that by random happenstance a few select coins acquired some absolutely marvelous toning adds value IMHO to those coins. I don't assign that same value to a coin that has been intentional subjected to a process that duplicates (some more successfully than others) that appearance.

Can I tell 100% of the time if a coin has been doctored? No, but the fact that I can be fooled at times doesn't diminish my appreciation for coins that to the best of my knowledge (and PCGS, NGC, etc.) have acquired their toning without intentional munipulation.

I really don't have a probably with the grading services slabbing ATed or dipped or whizzed coins and labeling them as such. As a matter of fact I believe that anyone selling a coin that has been ATed or dipped or conserved in any way should disclose that information when selling the coin and let the buyer decide how that affects his assessment of the coins value. For the people that don't mind ATed or dipped coins it wouldn't have any affect on their value assessment. Since so many have expressed the notion that it really shouldn't matter if a coin is ATed as long as it's pretty it would be interesting to see how the market for coins openly sold as ATed would fare.

leothelyon

To Beat a Dead Horse.
Do something futile; belabor an issue that is no longer of interest. A horseman occasionally applies some form of forceful persuasion to a live horse to get it moving; he might do the same to a dead horse, that is, beat it or flog it in frustration, or perhaps in the belief that it is still alive. Related expressions date at least to the 17th century. In 1887 John Morley, biographer of the English political figure Richard Cobden, wrote: “In parliament he [Cobden] again pressed the necessity of reducing expenditure. Friends warned him that he was flogging a dead horse.”

Leo

cladking

In this specific case it may be to see if underneath the hair it may be
a horse of another color or perhaps he is merely trying to impart some
artificial tanning.