Stung by a "No Return" Seller - Buyer Beware, Again !

Pushkin

I recently purchased an 1878 Indian Cent on eBay from a seller that appeared to be reputable. The coin was listed as XF and the seller stated that it would probably grade AU except for some slight discoloration on the reverse. The seller also posted an excellent photo of the coin that showed a problem free, very nice IHC. The only thing that I felt uncomfortable about was the no return policy, based on the seller's contention that the photos were of such good detail that the buyer should know what he/she was getting.

The coin arrived:

1. Micro-porosity over entire coin on obverse and reverse.
2. Coin had been harshly cleaned (scrubbed) of severe obverse and reverse verdigris - Dremel tool?
3. Fairly good doctoring job on the patina - making it impossible to see the porosity and remaining verdigris by examining the posted photos.

Response from the seller to my request for a refund: "sorry you were disappointed with the coin, see my return policy (no returns)".

The seller's "almost an AU" comment helped sucker me - P.T. Barnum would be proud.


I have a good knowledge of IHCs, but really got my pocket picked by this seller - I will NEVER, EVER buy a coin from a "no return seller again".

Nothing new in this post - just another warning of "buyer beware", especially of "no return" sellers.

Thank you for your attention.

Russ

I can relate to this. Mine was not an exceedingly costly lesson, hope yours was also not too bad.

Russ, NCNE

gemtone65

I hope you gave a negative feedback. Also wouldn't it be helpful to board members for you to name the dealer or at least identify the E-bay item number? Indeed, in a situation like this, I wonder if there is some way to put pressure on such a dealer to accept a return, e.g., letting him know that the PCGS forum will be informed of your experience?

gmarguli

File fraud charges thru eBay. Maybe it will scare the seller into allowing a return.

If you paid by PayPal file fraud thru them. They will sometimes lock the PayPal and he will be out of business until it gets resolved.

Pushkin

I'd be happy to send a PM with the seller's name and link. I'm always a little hesitant to post this kind of information in open forum, not out of fear of the seller; but is it really ethical to do so based on one experience?

The main point I was trying to make was the problem of "no return policy" sellers and how they can use misrepresentation to fool you, and then leave you with no recourse. I consider myself an experienced eBay buyer, I took precautions, and still got taken; the newbies need to be really careful.

tjkillian

Pushkin,

Sorry to hear about your loss. Please send me the link as I'd like to know about the seller too.

Thanks,
Tom

Petescorner

Pushkin, I can appreciate you not wanting to expose a seller just because he has a no return policy, but in this case, the seller also failed to disclose a major defect in the coin (corrosion). Then hid behind the no return policy. I think you could warn others about him specifically and not cross any ethical lines. But either way, it's your call to make.

gmarguli

Yes it is ethical to post it here. This isn't the case of someone selling a slabbed coin and you not liking it and getting stuck with a no return policy. This is the case of a seller intentionally misrepresenting the coin, altering the photo, lying in the description, and then refusing to take the coin back. It is a scam.

Tade

Please don't hesitate to name the seller. It's better to be wary of a seller and we can make our own decision.
I don't think you want someone else go through what you did.

Tonekiller

Pushkin,

I have read many a post from you about never buying from a seller without a return policy. While I am sorry to hear you where taken on the IHC, the seller did post a "no return" policy that you knew about.

When playing craps you hope the seven never shows up on a good roll. Sounds like you shot the dice and a seven came up. Not really fair to cry foul. Yes I understand the coin is corroded, but what if it was fine……..you would not have said a word.

Return policies protect the buyer and the seller. You will be better to neg the seller for lying about the condition of the coin than getting upset about the posted policies.

TBT

danglen

Just to give the flip side of the seller "no return" policy, I sell a lot of topical crowns that I buy directly from various mints. Before I started a "no return" policy, I would get coins back that had been improperly handled, fingerprinted, smudged, and basically non-saleable as BU merchandise. I even got a crown back that had been put in a bezel (not very well, I might add), because the crown was "too heavy to wear". I now state in my terms that "I do not offer a return policy, unless I misgrade a coin, or fail to mention any major defects in the coin, in which case I will gladly refund the full amount INCLUDING any shipping charges incurred". What this policy does is allow me the discretionary power to handle each case on an individual basis, and if you check out my feedback record, I think you'll see its a success. In your case, I think you got ripped off, but don't blame the policy, blame the seller for hiding behind it. And yes, I feel it's in everyone's best interest to know the sellers that we should avoid. Remember, most eBay sellers are also eBay buyers.

dan1ecu

Tade, am I seeing your icon right? Is that a flag burning?

Dan

IndianHeadMan

<< <i>Tade, am I seeing your icon right? Is that a flag burning?

Dan >>




I think you are right Dan. It's his right to do that, if he's american, but it doesn't change the fact that it's pathetic.

Pushkin

Tonekiller and Danglen,

Perhaps you are partially correct about my blaming the policy. I would have no problem with the policy if the coin were fairly represented. It the seller had said XF and it was really VF, but it looked XF to me in the pictures, then I would not complain. If the seller said XF details with corrosion and cleaning, I would not have bid. A seller certainly has a right to send a coin in a sealed transparent envelope or other device where the policy clearly states that if opened, no return. I completely agree that a seller has a right to protect themselves against fingerprints or any other damage that may occur in a return. But in this case the coin was offered for sale as an XF with no problems other than some "off-color" on the reverse, which the picture does show and which I accepted.

The porosity, severe cleaning, and verdigris remnants do not show in the photo, nor does the AT - yes, it is AT, not a natural patina. I would never try to sell this coin without stating that it was porous on obverse and reverse, cleaned and retoned, with significant verdigris under magnification. Perhaps I did not state the situation well in my post. This is not a case of disagreement in grade, it is a case of gross misreprsetentation by a fraudulent seller. The coin looks good in the enlarged photo; its crap when you see it in person. I don't buy the 7 comming up in craps analogy unless trusting a seller is the equivalent of rolling a seven. If your position is that "a no return policy" always trumps fraud, lying, deception; then OK, its my mistake. More power to the seller for catching another fool. But I will definitely follow a "no deals with no return sellers policy" (excluding the see it but don't touch it - sealed envelope example I mentioned).

Tonekiller

The reference is to buying a coin without some type of return policy is like a craps game. You are almost guaranteed to lose at some point. Again I am always sorry to hear about dishonest eBay sellers as it makes the job harder for the rest of us.

TBT

Pushkin

OK,

Thanks for the clarification.

I've never had any problem rolling sevens when playing craps, except when I was a "don't come" better - then the numbers just rolled.

Tonekiller

LOL! Been there many times.

TBT

danglen

Pushkin, as stated in my earlier post, I think in this case you got ripped off. I don't blame you for feeling the way you do, because the coin was obviously described in a manner meant to deceive the buyer, which it accomplished. I just feel there is a reasonable use for a "No Return" policy as long as the buyer is protected from any form of misrepresentation. But the seller should also be protected from "buyer's remorse", especially in an auction format. When a buyer changes his/her mind and returns an item, the seller is going to incur a monetary penalty, regardless of whether eBay returns the seller's "final value fee". eBay will not refund the listing fee, so that goes by the wayside. The simple fact is that if you bid on an item, and the item is delivered "as described", with no hidden defects, the item is yours and should be.

Pushkin

Danglen

We are not totally in disagreement. I have sold a good number of coins on eBay and never had one returned - however that doesn't mean that buyers don't do the things you mention - some do. My personal return policy is 5 days (notification upon receipt - not to actually get the coin back). If a seller posts a no return policy and acurately represents the merchandise fine - but if it is used as a method of selling misrepresented merchandise - then I believe it is fraud. However, after this experience, I will not buy another coin from a "no return" dealer - period. This post is to warn others - I know too well from experience that eBay "safe harbor", PayPal guarantees, etc, usually don't work, and retaliatory NEGs are the order of the day for these fraudulent sellers. I'm sorry if honest sellers get tainted by the dishonest "no return" scam artists, but I personally believe that honest dealers can have a return policy and still protect themselves. Remember, the coin is returned to the seller first, then the seller returns the money - if a coin comes back damaged - send it back to the buyer. If you are worried about the loss of eBay fees and shipping costs, state that they are not refundable, or even invoke the dreaded and hated "restocking fee". There are alternatives to "you bought it - you keep it, sucker!" which is how, correctly or incorrectly, more and more no return sellers are being viewed by buyers - including this one.

4bits

Just as bad as charging state sales tax but not stating it in your auction description.

coindaughter

Your policy makes sense, Danglen. May I use your idea and use similar wording in my future auctions?

(BTW, welcome! Great to have another coin brain to pick!)

coynclecter

This has nothing to do with a "no return policy" nor is it "buyer beware" nor is it a crap shoot and your luck ran out. This is misrepresentation , otherwise known as "FRAUD" a polite work for "stealing"

If someone plans to rip you off they can do it with or without a return policy. I can claim "money back guarantee" and tell you to "shove it" when you ask. This guy sent a coin other than the one he represented. That's fraud, period. If goods or money was exchanged by mail then it's "Mail Fraud." That's a federal crime and the Post Office has departments thats look into those complaints.

If I sold you a gold coin and sent you a copper penny could I hide behind a "no return" policy???

If you think you can prove your point I would lay out you entire case with detail, in writing with pictures and price guide references just like you were presenting a court case. address the letter to the USPS fraud division with a CC to ebay. Do not send it off yet, send a copy to the seller and give him 7 days to return your money.

Coyn

Pushkin

Coynclecter,

It is fraud! But form my past experience; there is really nothing anyone can do about it. I had a similar experience about six months ago. I filed formal complaints with eBay and PayPal and sent an official complaint to the USPS Postal Inspector's office. All of this after trying to work it out with the seller. In that case the obverse was fine (only a picture of the obverse was shown in the ad), but the reverse was badly corroded and pitted- what was depicted as about a $100 coin was actually a $10 coin. The seller called me a "clown" for wanting a refund. I went through unbelievable nonsense with both eBay and PayPal, after submitting pictures, evidence, including emails, everything that Safe Harbor and PayPal demanded. I followed all the rules and the bottom line - retaliatory Neg, PayPal suspended my purchasing privileges for two weeks (one day after I filed my complaint - apparently filing a complaint is a good way to be punished for taking up their time), and eBay gave me a lot of BS about how grading is subjective. Absolutely NOTHING happened to the seller, except my Neg - and for negging him, I got a nice one in return - his reason for the Neg; "This clown wanted his money back, including S&H". eBay's response to the retaliatory Neg was "we can't do anything about it - members have disagreements"! So, I paid promptly for a coin that was fraudulently represented, followed all the rules and ended up losing about 8 hours of my time, out $100, and a Neg on eBay, not able to use PayPal for two weeks!

So, I agree that fraud is the main issue, but from this experience and the other one, I can only say "BUYER BEWARE", because the so-called protections don't seem to work. Not buying from "no return" sellers won't remove all the risk, but it will reduce it. So "buyer beware" is also the issue.

I appreciate your advice, and I sincerely hope it works for others; but from my experience, the system is a joke and a complete waste of time. Using the "protections" only added to my frustration and anger. This is anecdotal, but I've been told by one major dealer that unless the dollar amounts involved are about $10,000 or greater, the USPS won't do anything. They never acknowledged my complaint.

Thank you for your attention.

DesertLizard

Pushkin,
Your experience is right on with the real fraud going on....Paypal and Ebay, now combined to rip off together. I am waiting patiently for the day a class action lawsuit is filed.

The safe harbor crap is a joke, there is NO protection. Ebay is a license to steal. No different than the fellow selling coins out of the trunk of his car in the Walmart parking lot!

fcloud

I think everyone on this board has made a mistake and trusted others. Chalk it up as a learning experience.

Tony