Many pro-NGC members such as GMarguli have mentioned complaints about PCGS, and often repeat these problems in other posts, and will not seem to get off PCGS's case even if the issue is resolved. Other members, such as Russ, have complained of fingerprints for example, but apparently got his problems fixed (and still seemed to mention it several times past that), so I can't say he is very pro - PCGS necessarily, he just likes the PCGS Registry maybe!
I am not anti-PCGS or pro-NGC. I submit to both. In fact I've probably submitted over 10X as many to PCGS than NGC over the years. Yes, I complain loudly and until I get heard. Without exaggeration, I have probably spent over $100,000 in submission fees with PCGS. I remember one month my fees ran over $10,000. My complaints with PCGS need to get repeated. The issue is frequently NOT resolved. With the fingerprint issue, yes PCGS has offered to take care of the problem by dipping the fingerprints off. Is this a resolution? Hell no! Other people still complain about fingerprints. When they stop fingerprinting the coins then there will be a resolution. It's great that my coins don't have any more fingerprints, but I'm sure Russ isn't happy with his fingerprinted coins. I'm sure TomB wasn't happy when he got a potato chip flake stuck to his coin. The list goes on and on.
Complaints that I have that get resolved I never mention again. I had a billing issue. Charlie saw my post, contacted me, and took care of it. I haven't mentioned it since.
There is no question that some PCGS coins may not cross to NGC, but clearly more go one way then the other, or you would have people making a bunch of money buying NGC coins, getting their easy cross, and selling them in PCGS holders.
Actually, the crossover rates for PCGS to NGC and NGC to PCGS are about the same. Both sides play the political game.
I can't find a PCGS Peace $ in MS66 under about $500, but I often see NGC ones quite a bit cheaper.
Maybe you're cheap. They Bluesheet bid around $450. If you're looking for one under $500 all you will see is the worst coins. Probably people who bought the PCGS marketing bought these cheaper coins and think they are great.
Isn't there easy money to be made there if the NGC ones are MS66?
No. Check the sheet. They trade around the same price.
Also, from personal experience, I have an NGC MS66RD Lincoln that I bought before I knew much about what I was doing. It is an awful looking coin with many spots, etc. I can't see how it could have got a 66 grade (I would like to think PCGS would give it about 64, but I can't be sure).
If you're not sure then how can you say NGC got the grade wrong? Maybe the coin got spots after it was slabbed? I've had PR69 coins with fingerprints and haze. I guess PCGS can't be trusted now?
I haven't been disappointed with really any of the 50-100 PCGS coins I have bought, and the only NGC I have I was disappointed with (once I knew what I was doing). I am certainly not saying NGC is that bad all the time of course, just my experience.
Your experience consists of ONE NGC coin and you are basing your opinion on that!
If I am going to spend $600 for an MS66 Peace $ (which is a fair amount of money for me), you better believe it will be a PCGS graded coin.
I'd hope it was a nice coin. You shouldn't care who graded it.
Back to the other thing, it seems that if someone gets a fingerprint, or a mislabel or something, some people on this board (some may be Pro-PCGS in general) don't seem to get over it and keep bringing it up, but I get the feeling the Pro-NGC guys never mention the problems they may have with NGC, no matter how small to make NGC look better. Maybe there have been a few posts of the kind, but I never seem to run into them!
Probably because the things keep happening over and over again here. You seem to think I am pro-NGC. When they are wrong I've ripped them apart just as bad as PCGS. So much so that they commented on it when I went to their table at a show.
There is a major difference between PCGS and NGC complaints. If I post/email/call a complaint about PCGS nothing will be done. I'll admit that Charlie appears to be working hard to improve the overall customer service and I, as well as others, appreciate it. However, in the past they didn't respond to complaints. With NGC I post a complaint and I am contacted by someone who will work to fix my problem.
About a year ago I complained in these forums that PCGS wasn't sending blank submission forms back with completed submissions. I contacted customer service and was told that they would send them out. Nothing. They never arrived. I contacted them again and I was told by someone that they personally would send them out to me. I never got them. A little while later while talking to Carol I mentioned this and she said she would take care of it. I guess she kicked some ass and had someone email me about this. That person from customer service told me that they had sent them out to me that day. I never got them.
I made a comment on their forums about NGC not sending blank submission forms and I get contacted by them telling me they will send me some. They arrive a few days later.
THIS IS A TRUE STORY!
NGC has proved that they will respond to complaints. In fact I would say that they will bend over backwards for you to make you happy. This was not true of them a few years ago. They have changed for the better.
PCGS has proven that they don't care. I honestly believe that Charlie is working on the customer service issue, but the management doesn't care. They really don't even like dealing with the public. I know. I was told that to my face by one of them.
<< <i>I want ... the slabbing company to stand behind the coin 100% ... I think PCGS is the best at this overall. >>
this is one of the BIGGEST fallacies in all of plastic-dom. PCGS DOES NOT STAND BEHIND THEIR GRADES 100%. they stand behind their grades 50%. they will guarantee your coin that if you resubmit it and it is found to be a lower grade, you get money back. HOWEVER, if the coin is found to be in a higher grade, the person who lost money selling it at the lower grade DOES NOT get money back. ie there is a penalty if they overgrade a coin, NO penalty if they undergraded it.
i have updated my list of 5 points from earlier in the thread:
1 allow net-grading, like ANACS does 2 mention ALL alterations to a coin, including dipping, retoning, etc, even if they don't warrant a net grade 3 can the crap. no more stupid "flags" and "signatures" and stars, and "pq's" and little "w's", etc. give you what you pay for, which is an OPINION on a grade 4 offer an "authentication-only" option, like ANACS does 5 for chrissake, get attributions correct. and at a minimum, get dates and denominations correct 6 guarantee resubmissions that come back at a higher grade, in addition to those that come back at a lower grade 7 STOP the extremely stupid business of slabbing five and ten dollar coins. i gotta puke every time i see a 1943 mercury dime slabbed ms-63 by ANYONE. one way to do this, RAISE the slabbing fees to $100 or so per coin.
one last thing to the acg-bashers/pcgs-bashers/ngc-bashers/icg-bashers, etc. all the services have equal value , which is to say that they offer an opinion for your hard-earned money. that opinion is equally worthless if you learn to value your own opinion even higher. LEARN TO GRADE FOR YOURSELF, then you can use all the time you wasted arguing about which plastic is best, for grading your own coins.
probably shouldn't keep repeating myself, but i added yet another point:
1 allow net-grading, like ANACS does 2 mention ALL alterations to a coin, including dipping, retoning, etc, even if they don't warrant a net grade 3 can the crap. no more stupid "flags" and "signatures" and stars, and "pq's" and little "w's", etc. give you what you pay for, which is an OPINION on a grade 4 offer an "authentication-only" option, like ANACS does 5 for chrissake, get attributions correct. and at a minimum, get dates and denominations correct 6 guarantee resubmissions that come back at a higher grade, in addition to those that come back at a lower grade 7 STOP the extremely stupid business of slabbing five and ten dollar coins. i gotta puke every time i see a 1943 mercury dime slabbed ms-63 by ANYONE. one way to do this, RAISE the slabbing fees to $100 or so per coin. 8 disallow company employees/owners from buying and selling coins , like what icg does.
What ever the "sheet" says, on any given day I can find multiple white Peace $s in NGC MS66 for about $500 BIN prices. For PCGS ones, it is usually at least $600 on up. I don't know what you mean by maybe I am cheap. I want the higher quality True MS66 one, so I am looking to buy PCGS, even for $600 or more. I don't want one that may actually be only an MS65. Usually on no reserve type auctions, the NGC ones also go considerably lower then their PCGS counterparts.
I am only basing it on one coin - Are you saying I need to buy 100 NGC coins before I realize they are all overgraded? One coin should be enough. What if it had cost me alot of money? Actually I also had a Franklin in NGC MS65 that was almost hard to give away, until I finally traded it for what I could get as part of a purchase. You had one time when you wanted form sent and they didn't do it; you didn't wait for 100 times to complain, did you? PCGS protects the buyer more then they do the submitter. There is no question that submitting coins to PCGS and seeing the grades can sometimes be frustrating. That is the way it should be; as you know most people and dealers tend to overrate their own coins.
I'd hope it was a nice coin. You shouldn't care who graded it.
Exactly, but with ebay, etc, you can't be 100% sure, and I don't have the time or energy to be returning coins I buy. If I buy a nice looking (from the scan) PCGS coin, I can feel pretty good about what it will look like.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
Comments
I am not anti-PCGS or pro-NGC. I submit to both. In fact I've probably submitted over 10X as many to PCGS than NGC over the years. Yes, I complain loudly and until I get heard. Without exaggeration, I have probably spent over $100,000 in submission fees with PCGS. I remember one month my fees ran over $10,000. My complaints with PCGS need to get repeated. The issue is frequently NOT resolved. With the fingerprint issue, yes PCGS has offered to take care of the problem by dipping the fingerprints off. Is this a resolution? Hell no! Other people still complain about fingerprints. When they stop fingerprinting the coins then there will be a resolution. It's great that my coins don't have any more fingerprints, but I'm sure Russ isn't happy with his fingerprinted coins. I'm sure TomB wasn't happy when he got a potato chip flake stuck to his coin. The list goes on and on.
Complaints that I have that get resolved I never mention again. I had a billing issue. Charlie saw my post, contacted me, and took care of it. I haven't mentioned it since.
There is no question that some PCGS coins may not cross to NGC, but clearly more go one way then the other, or you would have people making a bunch of money buying NGC coins, getting their easy cross, and selling them in PCGS holders.
Actually, the crossover rates for PCGS to NGC and NGC to PCGS are about the same. Both sides play the political game.
I can't find a PCGS Peace $ in MS66 under about $500, but I often see NGC ones quite a bit cheaper.
Maybe you're cheap. They Bluesheet bid around $450. If you're looking for one under $500 all you will see is the worst coins. Probably people who bought the PCGS marketing bought these cheaper coins and think they are great.
Isn't there easy money to be made there if the NGC ones are MS66?
No. Check the sheet. They trade around the same price.
Also, from personal experience, I have an NGC MS66RD Lincoln that I bought before I knew much about what I was doing. It is an awful looking coin with many spots, etc. I can't see how it could have got a 66 grade (I would like to think PCGS would give it about 64, but I can't be sure).
If you're not sure then how can you say NGC got the grade wrong? Maybe the coin got spots after it was slabbed? I've had PR69 coins with fingerprints and haze. I guess PCGS can't be trusted now?
I haven't been disappointed with really any of the 50-100 PCGS coins I have bought, and the only NGC I have I was disappointed with (once I knew what I was doing). I am certainly not saying NGC is that bad all the time of course, just my experience.
Your experience consists of ONE NGC coin and you are basing your opinion on that!
If I am going to spend $600 for an MS66 Peace $ (which is a fair amount of money for me), you better believe it will be a PCGS graded coin.
I'd hope it was a nice coin. You shouldn't care who graded it.
Back to the other thing, it seems that if someone gets a fingerprint, or a mislabel or something, some people on this board (some may be Pro-PCGS in general) don't seem to get over it and keep bringing it up, but I get the feeling the Pro-NGC guys never mention the problems they may have with NGC, no matter how small to make NGC look better. Maybe there have been a few posts of the kind, but I never seem to run into them!
Probably because the things keep happening over and over again here. You seem to think I am pro-NGC. When they are wrong I've ripped them apart just as bad as PCGS. So much so that they commented on it when I went to their table at a show.
There is a major difference between PCGS and NGC complaints. If I post/email/call a complaint about PCGS nothing will be done. I'll admit that Charlie appears to be working hard to improve the overall customer service and I, as well as others, appreciate it. However, in the past they didn't respond to complaints. With NGC I post a complaint and I am contacted by someone who will work to fix my problem.
About a year ago I complained in these forums that PCGS wasn't sending blank submission forms back with completed submissions. I contacted customer service and was told that they would send them out. Nothing. They never arrived. I contacted them again and I was told by someone that they personally would send them out to me. I never got them. A little while later while talking to Carol I mentioned this and she said she would take care of it. I guess she kicked some ass and had someone email me about this. That person from customer service told me that they had sent them out to me that day. I never got them.
I made a comment on their forums about NGC not sending blank submission forms and I get contacted by them telling me they will send me some. They arrive a few days later.
THIS IS A TRUE STORY!
NGC has proved that they will respond to complaints. In fact I would say that they will bend over backwards for you to make you happy. This was not true of them a few years ago. They have changed for the better.
PCGS has proven that they don't care. I honestly believe that Charlie is working on the customer service issue, but the management doesn't care. They really don't even like dealing with the public. I know. I was told that to my face by one of them.
and it is worth more out of the holder than in the holder
and it has monster exceptional fantastic qualities
then the holder that this specific coin is in
this becomes my favorite service for this particiular coin
sincerely michael
<< <i>I want ... the slabbing company to stand behind the coin 100% ... I think PCGS is the best at this overall. >>
this is one of the BIGGEST fallacies in all of plastic-dom. PCGS DOES NOT STAND BEHIND THEIR GRADES 100%. they stand behind their grades 50%. they will guarantee your coin that if you resubmit it and it is found to be a lower grade, you get money back. HOWEVER, if the coin is found to be in a higher grade, the person who lost money selling it at the lower grade DOES NOT get money back. ie there is a penalty if they overgrade a coin, NO penalty if they undergraded it.
i have updated my list of 5 points from earlier in the thread:
1 allow net-grading, like ANACS does
2 mention ALL alterations to a coin, including dipping, retoning, etc, even if they don't warrant a net grade
3 can the crap. no more stupid "flags" and "signatures" and stars, and "pq's" and little "w's", etc. give you what you pay for, which is an OPINION on a grade
4 offer an "authentication-only" option, like ANACS does
5 for chrissake, get attributions correct. and at a minimum, get dates and denominations correct
6 guarantee resubmissions that come back at a higher grade, in addition to those that come back at a lower grade
7 STOP the extremely stupid business of slabbing five and ten dollar coins. i gotta puke every time i see a 1943 mercury dime slabbed ms-63 by ANYONE. one way to do this, RAISE the slabbing fees to $100 or so per coin.
one last thing to the acg-bashers/pcgs-bashers/ngc-bashers/icg-bashers, etc. all the services have equal value , which is to say that they offer an opinion for your hard-earned money. that opinion is equally worthless if you learn to value your own opinion even higher. LEARN TO GRADE FOR YOURSELF, then you can use all the time you wasted arguing about which plastic is best, for grading your own coins.
K S
<< <i>airplanenut, they only have a minimum on the cheap services (modern, economy). There is no minimum on the other services. >>
That's the problem... I can't afford the higher services
1 allow net-grading, like ANACS does
2 mention ALL alterations to a coin, including dipping, retoning, etc, even if they don't warrant a net grade
3 can the crap. no more stupid "flags" and "signatures" and stars, and "pq's" and little "w's", etc. give you what you pay for, which is an OPINION on a grade
4 offer an "authentication-only" option, like ANACS does
5 for chrissake, get attributions correct. and at a minimum, get dates and denominations correct
6 guarantee resubmissions that come back at a higher grade, in addition to those that come back at a lower grade
7 STOP the extremely stupid business of slabbing five and ten dollar coins. i gotta puke every time i see a 1943 mercury dime slabbed ms-63 by ANYONE. one way to do this, RAISE the slabbing fees to $100 or so per coin.
8 disallow company employees/owners from buying and selling coins , like what icg does.
K S
Greg,
What ever the "sheet" says, on any given day I can find multiple white Peace $s in NGC MS66 for about $500 BIN prices. For PCGS ones, it is usually at least $600 on up. I don't know what you mean by maybe I am cheap. I want the higher quality True MS66 one, so I am looking to buy PCGS, even for $600 or more. I don't want one that may actually be only an MS65. Usually on no reserve type auctions, the NGC ones also go considerably lower then their PCGS counterparts.
I am only basing it on one coin - Are you saying I need to buy 100 NGC coins before I realize they are all overgraded? One coin should be enough. What if it had cost me alot of money? Actually I also had a Franklin in NGC MS65 that was almost hard to give away, until I finally traded it for what I could get as part of a purchase. You had one time when you wanted form sent and they didn't do it; you didn't wait for 100 times to complain, did you? PCGS protects the buyer more then they do the submitter. There is no question that submitting coins to PCGS and seeing the grades can sometimes be frustrating. That is the way it should be; as you know most people and dealers tend to overrate their own coins.
I'd hope it was a nice coin. You shouldn't care who graded it.
Exactly, but with ebay, etc, you can't be 100% sure, and I don't have the time or energy to be returning coins I buy. If I buy a nice looking (from the scan) PCGS coin, I can feel pretty good about what it will look like.
JJacks