submission results icg vs pcgs....

presleyh

invoice no. 3046194
all were pr69dcam in icg slabs
all kennedy proofs
74s pcgs..........................69 cam
71s '' 68 cam
79s '' t-1 69 dcam
81s '' t-1 69 dcam
76s '' silver 68 dcam

It seems like when you look these up in the coin price guide that the
best way to predict grade is to take the biggest price jump and
go back one grade.
Im ok with this submission though. I bought these in a group and the overall price for icg slabs is fairly low.

at least submitting in the slab doesnt cause hazing, i think.

BNE

Those sound like very nice results. The ICG to PCGS thing is really tough to predict, in my experience: ICG seems all over the map in terms of consistency. Your "formula" sounds as good as any.

Russ

You did EXTREMELY well. On the '71 and '74 Kennedys, getting a DCAM designation out of PCGS is close to impossible, so no surprise that those dropped to just CAM. You crossed one at the same grade and the other only a point lower. You crossed the '79 and '81 and only a point drop on the '76. This is a GREAT result.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

Great invoice, and better than average results.

MICHAELDIXON

I've sent several (15) Mercury dimes in to be graded by ICG which were cracked out of PCGS or NGC slabs. (This is because I want my set in ICG holders. I like their holder.) All but one came back the same grade originally assigned by either PCGS or NGC. One NGC MS67FB came back MS64! I can't say about ICG's grading of moderns, since I use only PCGS, but their Merc, Morgan and Peace grading is on an equal par with PCGS and NGC.

saynotoACG

Unless you get same or better grade, they are worth more in ICG holders.

gmarguli

Unless you get same or better grade, they are worth more in ICG holders

Doubtful. An ICG PR69DCAM is hard to sell and only will sell for a few dollars. The market for these is as dry as can be. People don't even submit these to ICG anymore since you can't get your slabb fees back - even for some PR70DCAMs.

flaminio

<< <i>Doubtful. An ICG PR69DCAM is hard to sell and only will sell for a few dollars. The market for these is as dry as can be. People don't even submit these to ICG anymore since you can't get your slabb fees back - even for some PR70DCAMs. >>



Greg, your opinion of ICG is well-known on these boards, but at least try to keep your venom factual. When submitting to ICG you can specify a minimum grade. The coin will only be slabbed if it meets or beats that grade -- if it doesn't, you get your grading fees back (less a $5 handling fee).

-Bob

wingedliberty

Greg is not the only one, I agree with him 100%, ICG is terrible in every series.
They are worth considerably more in PCGS and NGC holders. ICG has a great holder, but
the grading SUCKS!!!!


Brian.

gmarguli

flaminio, yes my opinion of ICG is that they suck. I think they are one step above ACG.

Here is what I wrote: "Doubtful. An ICG PR69DCAM is hard to sell and only will sell for a few dollars. The market for these is as dry as can be. People don't even submit these to ICG anymore since you can't get your slabb fees back - even for some PR70DCAMs. "

Here is what you wrote: "Greg, your opinion of ICG is well-known on these boards, but at least try to keep your venom factual.
When submitting to ICG you can specify a minimum grade. The coin will only be slabbed if it meets or
beats that grade -- if it doesn't, you get your grading fees back (less a $5 handling fee)."

What does one have to do with the other?

You submit to ICG with a minimum grade of PR69 or PR70 and they slab it. You still can't sell the coin for the cost of slabbing. I see ICG PR69s sell for $3-$5 all the time. PR70s sell for $10-$20 most of the time.

The fact that ICG will only charge you $5 if it doesn't meet the grade is great, but even if it does meet the grade or PR69 or PR70 you still lose because you still can't sell the coin for the cost of slabbing.

Buy ICG all you want. It's your money. Just don't cry when you can only get 20% of your money back and when PCGS/NGC refuse to cross the coins.

wingedliberty

Greg:
I totally agree. ICG coins bring 15-35% of PCGS/NGC. ANACS & PCI are now ahead of ICG in market
acceptance. ICG will slap a 70 on most modern coins. I can't believe Teletrade ever accepted them.

Brian.

wingedliberty

I had a group of ICG Mercs that were crossed to NGC, they came back 1.5 grades lower on average.
Which is fine, because the MS67 ICG Mercs that I bought, I paid 64 money for. ICG market acceptance
is very poor.

Brian.

grip

I agree with Greg and Brian.They suck .Al

jom

How exactly do they "suck"? It's probably true they are not accepted in the market. All that really says is that their standard is more liberal. So what? What should be important is whether they are consistant NOT how conservative they are. If you all can make an arguement as to their poor consistancy then you might have something. Otherwise they are no better or worse than PCGS or NGC.

jom

wingedliberty

Jom:
What you say makes perfect sense. ICG is very consistent. They consistently overgrade
coins and their market acceptance is terrible. If you don't believe me, Try this experiment:

Take a 1943D Mercury dime graded PCGS or NGC MS66FB and also take a 1943D Mercury dime
graded ICG-66FB to any show:

Here is the typical result from most dealers: (This is based on my personal experience).

Prices paid: 1943D 10c PCGS-66FB: $22
1943D 10c NGC-66FB $19
1943D 10c ICG-66FB $9
This is only my personal experience, If you love ICG coins, then that is what counts.
We all work hard for our money and the hobby is about having fun. Bottom line is, enjoy what you
collect!!!!

Brian.

gmarguli

How do they suck? Off the top of my head and in no particular order:

1) They use the results of an eBay survey to show they are #1. They selectively skewed the percentages of value for the categories so they would be #1.

2) They promoted themselves as tough as PCGS/NGC, but being collector oriented. A bunch of collectors bought this line and lost a ton of money.

3) They act like they are tough on grading, but I would estimate that 25%+ of their non-modern coins have problems. I basically don't look at ICG coins anymore. That's because I've seen too many AT, cleaned, PVC, & whizzed coins in their slabs.

4) Their grading is not just more liberal, it is inconsistent. They started being really strict and then loosened up to the point of being ACG and allowing problem coins in their slabs.

Who knows where they are now? Probably no one since no one is submitting to them. Does anyone still submit to ICG?

Their dealer network is dead. They won't even buy ICG coins. I can't give them away. Even the rare fairly graded ones sell at deep discounts.

5) Scam slabs. Those signed by people, etc. I know PCGS has done this also. They suck for doing it just as much - actually more considering what they have put in their slabs.

jom

1) They use the results of an eBay survey to show they are #1. They selectively skewed the percentages of value for the categories so they would be #1.

Oh no! They used PROMOTION? I'm outraged! Now, where did I put those PCGS slabs I had, with the flag on them? lol

2) They promoted themselves as tough as PCGS/NGC, but being collector oriented. A bunch of collectors bought this line and lost a ton of money.

Maybe the collectors should have learned to grade first....nah...that's too much ask.

3) They act like they are tough on grading, but I would estimate that 25%+ of their non-modern coins have problems. I basically don't look at ICG coins anymore. That's because I've seen too many AT, cleaned, PVC, & whizzed coins in their slabs.

Seen much of that stuff in PCGS slabs...except for a whizzed coin. Never seen one of those...yet. I can say that "being tough" on grading is irrelevant. Being consistant is far more important. Which leads to....

4) Their grading is not just more liberal, it is inconsistent. They started being really strict and then loosened up to the point of being ACG and allowing problem coins in their slabs.

Again, I can see they are liberal but inconsistant? I haven't seen that BUT....you seemed to have looked at far more of their coins than I. I can conceed that. But I'd like to point out that inconsistant seems to be the problem with all the services. OR...that is just the nature of grading so you'll never get away from it. Frankly, I believe the latter is the case which is why I don't pay big premuims for small jumps in grade.

5) Scam slabs. See #1

The whole deal that confounds me about ICG is that they are run by some pretty good people. Taylor and JP Martin being ones I know are pretty good guys. Why they have problems is a mystery to me.

jom

flaminio

<< <i>What does one have to do with the other? >>



Sorry Greg -- I misread the meaning of your post. Now that you've described it in other terms, I understand what you were trying to say.

I understand you, but I still don't agree with you. For example, look at this auction of mine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1374659662

Now, I'm not a big time dealer or anything; I wasn't even trying to get my slabbing fees back -- it was just an extra coin that I had lying around, and figured someone out there in eBayland had better use for it than I did. Maybe you should send all your ICG coins to me on consignment; since you can't even give them away you must be doing something wrong.

-Bob

Russ

flaminio,

The price you realized on that quarter was a fluke caused by bidder fever. They don't normally go for that much in anybody's slab.

Russ, NCNE

BNE

I agree with Greg on lack of consistency. Sometimes you can cross an ICG coin and only go down a point, which ain't bad if (as noted above) you are getting a considerable discount because it's in an ICG holder. Other times, however, you look at the coin and know you'd be lucky to only go down two points. That's why it's really a crap shoot.

I won't say ICG sucks. Just that it is important to recognize that cross-over results are going to be more unpredictable than the "standard" 1-1.5 point hit you get trying to cross NGC (which I am beginning to suspect is official PCGS "policy," but that's another story. . . . )

DHeath

Flaminio,

Try this auction in which I am the lone bidder. I fully expect this coin to be lousy, but I don't mind gambling a few bucks over the price of a 71 proof set to see what it looks like.

1971 Pr69 Cam

presleyh

The reason i bought these to begin with is that they were way below what pcgs kennedys in the same grades were going for on ebay. I thought this would be a way to "test" the theory that pcgs grades tougher than icg. I guess they do somewhat. It is still a toss up as to whether you can buy icg or pci or acg for bargain prices and submit to pcgs and come out ahead financially. After cost of coins, postage and grading fees, its about equal to buying them in pcgs slabs anyway.

Russ

Thanks, Don.

Russ, NCNE

Russ

PS: In case anybody's wondering, the coin Don linked would be $150 plus in a PCGS holder.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

Damn-it, I knew better.

presleyh

The coin Don linked to will probably drop one point at pcgs, which will take it from a list price of $90.00 down to $27.00. Thats what i meant when i said it looks like pcgs decides where the big price jump and drops back one grade. If you buy it for 10.00 at pr69cam and it stays that way at pcgs, it would be worthwhile to do it.

DHeath

Presley, your logic is flawless. I wouldn't even bother on a coin that didn't have such an upside potential. One of these days, a coin like that will dcam, and that'll be fun. The truth is, the 1971 proof sets are so bad that I don't really mind gambling a few buck more than the cost of a raw set to see if someone accidentally submitted a beauty. I figure this coin is what I'd expect to find after looking through 10-20 unopened 71 sets, and I don't have to relist the sets and pay a sellers fee to uninvolve my coin money. I have no great expectation for this coin, but if you're gonna find Cinderella, you gotta put the slipper on alot of potential princesses.

braddick

It'll probably loose its CAM rating too. The obverse lettering doesn't appear frosted enough to hold the CAM.

----------------------------------------------------
An ICG 1950-D Jefferson in MS67 I recently sold went for about $40.00. It's over $1,000.00 in PCGS.

I bought a SEGS and one ICG silver MS68 Roosevelt for less than $20.00 each (PCGS? Forget about it-). I overpaid on both (MS66 sheet is about $8. and that's all these really were).

ICG may get it right on circulated coins like Wheatbacks and Mercuries, but when it is time to make a stand on the tougher grades ICG folds like a cheap tent.

I have purged my collection of all ICG coins other than a rainbow American Silver Eagle (that PCGS won't cross!).

-I even have more respect, in some ways (better holder and insert) with SEGS than ICG.

DHeath

Pat, probably. If the coin were more than a movie ticket, I wouldn't buy it if the holder said PR69 Dcam.

Russ

<< <i>which will take it from a list price of $90.00 down to $27.00 >>



presleyh,

On this particular coin, you can throw the $90 CU list price out the window. It's one of the rare examples that, in reality, sells for far more then the price guide. You can't touch a 1971 in a PCGS PR69CAM holder for less then $150.



<< <i>It'll probably loose its CAM rating too. The obverse lettering doesn't appear frosted enough to hold the CAM. >>



Pat,

I think it would make CAM at PCGS. They're easier on the '71 thru '74 for the CAM designation in this series. I've seen plenty from these years that lacked frost in the lettering that made it, where the same thing in later years (or '64 thru '70 for that matter), would have killed it.

Russ, NCNE

HuliganRS

Keith Love had the right idea when he opened ICG with quality service and good grading -> That's why TeleTrade accepted them!

L8tely they went to crap.

That's the "Truth" <-- To quote TruthTeller.

Rusty.

gmarguli

Seen much of that stuff in PCGS slabs...except for a whizzed coin. Never seen one of those...yet. I can say that "being tough" on grading is irrelevant. Being consistant is far more important. Which leads to....

PCGS slabbed a proof shield nickel for me that had some corrossion whizzed off the rim.

I saw a clearly whizzed BTW or GWC (can't remember which one) in a PCGS slab. The owner wanted an upgrade and wouldn't listen to reason. He cracked it out and resubmitted it and was given a bodybag.

gmarguli

ICG may get it right on circulated coins

I've found them to be awful on circulated coins. I'd sooner buy an MScoin in their slab than a circulated coin.

jom

Greg: That's probably true. PCGS isn't all that good with circs either. I always though ANACS was best at circs....that my have changed recently however since it's been a long time since I collected circs.

jom

DCAMFranklin

When first approached about utilizing ICG for some of my certification, back in 2000, I took a group of certified Proof Franklins that I thought were worthy of the Cameo grade, though they were not in Cameo holders. The exception was a 1956 Franklin that was in an ANACS PR-67 Cameo holder with a very strong Cameo contrast I thought was worthy of the DCAM grade. I wanted a "fair", objective grade, so I cracked all of the coins out of their existing holders and sent them to ICG. The ANACS coin came back from ICG with the exact same grade, PR-67 Cameo. I had worried about the depth of the reverse mirrors and I guess ICG confirmed my doubts. 2 of the 3 Proof Franklins that came from a PCGS holder came back from ICG with LOWER numerical grades than had been assigned by PCGS. Both of these 1959 Franklins came from the very first, small, turqoise blue/green label PCGS holders. Neither coin received the Cameo grade, though I feel they certainly would have, had they been from a more common year. So much for the MYTH that the older PCGS holder coins were graded with a more strict guideline!! The 3rd PCGS Proof Franklin, a 1957 which I had purchased from Val Webb, came back with the same numerical grade, though received the Cameo grade. That 1957 PR-68 Cameo Franklin helped to pay for this little experiment! I had taken the final 10 coins from NGC holders. ALL 10 of the NGC coins came back from ICG with a numerical grade LESS than that assigned by NGC! All 10! Not even 1 tie. A 1961 NGC PF-68 Franklin came back from ICG in a PR-64 Cameo holder. FOUR grades lower than that assigned by NGC!! Seven of the NGC Proof Franklins came back from ICG with the Cameo grade. I'm not here to declare ICG a superior grading service. Neither am I here to make a ludicrous statement like, "they suck". This little objective "experiment" helped show me they grade Proof Franklins with a very strict guideline. I have always fround them to be very consistent with the Franklins. I have seen them make a number of bad mistakes in the Proof Kennedy series. A number of coins in the DCAM holder, usually more difficult early 70's coins, that should have been in a Cameo holder. I'm quite confident that ICG would hold up very well in the Morgan series, as well. Two years ago, the ICG holder Morgans were selling at a substantial discount to the PCGS coins and a pretty large discount to the NGC holder coins. No longer! Today, the ICG coins are selling at a price equal to, or slightly greater, than that of the NGC holder. The discount to the PCGS holder has narrowed substantially. Check it out. You'll see I'm right! It's very simple, and not very expensive, to crack coins out of their ICG holders and send them to PCGS for a new holder. I hear of very few collectors or dealers willing to do as I did-take coins from their beloved PCGS, NGC & ANACS holders to confirm grade accuracy. I challenge all of you take a 10 coin sample, send them to ICG and post the results here. AND DON'T USE THE MODERNS!

gmarguli

DCAMFranklin:

1) The ENTER key is our friend.

2) ICG started off grading really strict. I do not remember the exact dates when they first started up, but for the first few months they were really strict.

3) I purchased an ICG coin less than a month ago. A GWC commemorative. They said MS66. NGC said MS65. I used the crossover service and I told NGC that I would accept MS65 for the coin. Before anyone thinks about bias, NGC crossed at higher grades coins (PCGS, SEGS) that I was willing to take at lower grades.

4) I've examined thousands of ICG coin. Their grading standards are no where near those of PCGS or NGC. Not even close.

5) ICG Morgans are NOT trading at levels above those of NGC. That's a bad joke. ICG coins don't really trade period.

Simple random sample from TeleTrash (Using first sales that popped up in the last 60 days).

1880-S in MS66.
PCGS: $210
NGC: $200
ICG: $120

1921 in MS65
PCGS: $140
NGC: $75
ICG: $55

1904-O in MS65
PCGS: $90
NGC: $80
ICG: $55

Now those were the first prices that popped up for 3 dates/grades off the top of my head. What exactly were you saying about ICG coins selling for more than NGC?

If you wish to put your money where your mouth is then I will be happy to sell you ICG coins for the same price as NGC coins. If you are correct then I will be selling the to you at less than market. You can also cross them to PCGS for very little money and make a nice profit. Want to take me up on the offer? Only rule is the date/grade is my choice and there are no returns.

grip

Greg,
Good work...Im sure he's referring to $25.00 coin's only.Al

wingedliberty

I will settle this debate once and for all. This is a hypothetical.


1)If you are buying a 1945 10c in MS63FB. (SIGHTUNSEEN)
Would you rather it be in a PCGS/NGC holder or ICG. ? (Be honest).


2) If you are buying an 1874 1c in AU50.

Would you rather it be in a PCGS/NGC holder or ICG? (Be honest).

3) If you are buying a 1969s 50c in PR70DCAM , would you rather it be in a PCGS/NGC holder
or ICG? (be honest?)

This is a synopsis of superlatives(FB,FH, FBL, Full steps, etc, circ coins, and moderns)
This is an accurate cross section of the market.

MY ANSWER: PCGS/NGC IS EVERY CASE. Not rocket science.

Brian.

DCAMFranklin

Greg-
Gee.... it seems like just yesterday and you were saying that, "TeleTrash sucks!" Yet, now you are quoting THEM as an acceptable means of comparison. Are you kidding me? C'mon....... Seen any common date NGC's sell like this beauty?


Text1891 Morgan on Ebay

NGC goes 0 for 10 crossing to ICG and you just can't help but take it really personal. 0 for 10! I'll take all the DCAM Franklins you have to offer. I'll also take all the MS66 Morgans you want to offer. Oh, that's right, you wanted to make some really STUPID RULES that no one would accept. Funny, I always remember you telling all Members on this forum to never accept a sight unseen offer with no return privilege. Clearly, there is just no end to your HYPOCRISY!

wingedliberty

I agree with Greg. Also, why would anyone cross an ICG coin to NGC.
Its like sleeping with Roseanne instead of Cindy Crawford is offered a choice.
I dont follow your logic. NGC coins trade 300% better sight unseen than ICG. Thats a fact!!
THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Brian.

DCAMFranklin

Brian-
Are you buying a lot of coins sight unseen??? If so, then we have an understanding of your "facts"???? Whew! Let's change your idiotic assumption to having the opportunity to buy premium quality coins, up close and personal and at average trading prices of the coin, in that holder. I will take the premium quaility 1969 PR-70 DCAM Kennedy in the ICG holder and keep the additional $600 the PCGS coin would cost in my bank account to acquire MANY MORE coins.

wingedliberty

Dcam:
Your defense of ICG is now clear. I guess you are buried in ICG coins. I do not buy coins sightunseen, but alot of new comers to the hobby do. Are you saying that ICG offers them an
assurance??? I still have not heard your answer as to why NGC coins trade 300% better sightunseen.
Please dont tell me that PCGS/NGC are conspiring to dominate the market. I have heard similar
conspiracy theories before without foundation. Your use of such terms as "idiotic" proves that you
are on the defensive and cannot keep the discussion civilized. I recommend selling your ICG coins
as soon as possible or at least crossing them to a legitimate grading service.

Brian.

Russ

<< <i>I will take the premium quaility 1969 PR-70 DCAM Kennedy in the ICG holder and keep the additional $600 the PCGS coin would cost in my bank account >>



A. $600 might get you the chance to touch the coin in a PCGS holder.

B. Unless the guy who owns the only one dies, you couldn't buy it for any amount of money anyway.

ICG may be all that in Franklins, I don't know since I don't collect them. But, they flat-out suck in the proof Kennedy series.

Russ, NCNE

wingedliberty

I agree Russ, they are terrible with Kennedy cams/dcams. I have looked at thousands of them
at shows in ICG holders. My friends and I cringe at the horrific grading. I have not seen enough
Franklins in ICG holders to really make a judgement, but the Kennedies, Mercs, type, and seated
that I have seen, was horrid.


Brian.

gmarguli

Gee.... it seems like just yesterday and you were saying that, "TeleTrash sucks!" Yet, now you are quoting THEM as an acceptable means of comparison. Are you kidding me?

Yes. Because TT sells generic coins. That's the best comparison.

C'mon....... Seen any common date NGC's sell like this beauty?

1891 Morgan on Ebay

Maybe we are looking at different coins. I see a Morgan with a scuffy face and ugly toning. I also see enough flatness on the hair and breast feathers to question whether that coin should be in a MS holder at all. AU55 perhaps, but I will reserve judgement since I can't look at the coin in person.


NGC goes 0 for 10 crossing to ICG and you just can't help but take it really personal.

Take it personally? Why? I don't own NGC. I'm not an NGC dealer.


0 for 10! I'll take all the DCAM Franklins you have to offer. I'll also take all the MS66 Morgans you want to offer. Oh, that's right, you wanted to make some really STUPID RULES that no one would accept. Funny, I always remember you telling all Members on this forum to never accept a sight unseen offer with no return privilege. Clearly, there is just no end to your HYPOCRISY!

Who cares if it is sight unseen. ICG are just as good as PCGS/NGC so you'll still make a killing. You shouldn't care about seeing the coin. Don't you trust ICG??? I guess there is just no end to your HYPOCRISY!

gmarguli

I have not seen enough Franklins in ICG holders to really make a judgement

They must be excellent on Franklins. After all, many of the <cough> FINEST KNOWN <cough> Franklins reside in ICG slabs. These coins weren't slabbed by PCGS or NGC for over 15 years, but as soon as ICG started they were submitted and now rank as the highest graded Franklins in existance. Well, it was either that or ICG just overgrades them horribly like every other series.

Based on the prices they bring I'm guessing horribly overgraded (but DCAMFranklin will thell you they bring the same prices).

DCAMFranklin

Brian-
My use of terms such as "idiotic" have nothing to do with my being on the defensive or keeping the conversation civilized. I use "idiotic" as that is what I would consider the proposition of buying coins sight unseen. If you feel otherwise and want to build your collection in such a manner, then that is certainly your choice to make. Me, I think I will stick to looking my coins over, up close and personal. I don't care what company's holder the coin comes in. I just want to make sure my money is well spent. I only offered my "experiment" as a means to assess the ICG grading of the Proof Franklins. You say, "I have not see enough Franklins in ICG holders to really make a judgement..." and you are probably right. You should NOT make a judgement. I'm in no way "buried" in a bunch of ICG holder coins. I do own some. I AM extremely proud to have everyone of those coins in my collection and am quite certain of their quaility. I am extremely proud to have each PCGS and ANACS coins I have in my collection and I am quite certain of their quality, as well. I wish you continued succes with your purchases of sight unseen coins.