PCGS Saga Continues....

dakra

I figured this was pertinant to the group as some people have made mention of PCGS Quality control in recent months. I just got word back that Charlie and Rick Montgomery have reviewed my coins and have come back with a decision:

"The flaws that you pointed out are very common to these types of coins. We have seen hundreds of coins straight form the mint that have these exact same type flaws on them. We feel that all of the marks that are on these coins were there before the coins were received at PCGS."

I really have to say that Charlie was very helpful and he kept me updated on what was going on. I very much appreciate that, Charlie.

Unfortunately, I very much disagree with the decision as my coins were returned to me with several issues: a Hair going from the obverse to the reverse, more than one droplet, finger print and/or other orange substance, a rectangular foreign object, dust inside the case, scratched case, cracked case, fingerprints on the outside of the case, what appeared to be a scratch on my brand new gold eagle coin and a coin that was mislabeled.

I actually hoped that I could come back and report how happy I was that PCGS took responsibility for this issue but they did not. I'm still hopeful as I contacted a few people higher up but after having two go arounds with this, I'm not very hopeful.

What's next? If PCGS does not take care of this...
1> Switch to one of their competitors.
2> In the process of Faxing paperwork to my Lawyers office.
(I'm pretty sure I have legal recourse but need to know my rights and how to proceed)

and maybe an Ebay auction one of these days to get rid of some of these now worthless slabs. Sorry but out of all the coins I sent in, the one coin that I spend the most on, a brand new, just arrived in the mail, never touched with my hands 2002 Gold American Eagle. It didn't have a flaw on it (at 8x).

I wasn't going to do this but.... The whole situation has me pretty numb inside. Some of the coins where slated to go in my/my son's collection and other coins were slated to go on the market to bring in some additional money to the household. With that in mind, I took great care of these coins, I took great care to send them to PCGS. I trusted PCGS as they are suppose to be the number 1 grading company in the business. When I think of everything, I really blame myself for not keeping my coins as they were, in the original Mint Boxes and Holders and presenting them to my son when he was 18...20...25...30

Buy the coin, not the slab...huh? Good advice to whoever dispensed it. I like it as much as my wife's reaction when I told her about this...
Sue: I Love You
Dave: But PCGS Doesn't
Sue: Well PCGS CAN KISS YOUR A**

I will most likely go with a competitor but I'm not so sure I can trust *anyone* with my coins anymore. The one thing I do know, I'd like to stick around the message board as I have learned a great deal from you guys and learning is the name of the game. Unfortunate for me, I had to learn like this :-)

-David

dakra

Who was the guy who received his coins back with a brown tone to them?

-David

darktone

David, I don't think you can really go any higher up than Rick Montgomery. I am sorry about your coins. mike

presleyh

Im not sure i have read the rules you accept when you submit to pcgs, but there is probably something in there about legal matters. The general coin public is the real court of appeals. As long as there is a large enough group of people willing to send in their money, nothing is likely to change. It is kind of like Tennessee football. Even in a losing season the stadium sells out 108,000 seats.

Fulmer will never be replaced as long as it sells out. (not that he should be!) bottom line, money talks

dakra

After getting a note from Rick.... I've had it. I gave Rick my lawyers name and number, I'm dropping this in my lawyers lap on Monday.

I know many of you have submitted to PCGS for ages and some people have never had any problems. How do you think it feels when your just starting out and get slammed with something like this? I have about 80 other coins to prove, not one of my coins is in the condition they sent my coins back in.

ARGH!!!!!!!!!!

TTT
That's it from me. I don't want to bother you guys with this and I don't want to even think about this situation anymore.

BTW... What does TTT mean? :-)

-Davd

cointagious

i good some good advice recently from a major submitting dealer...when it comes to hi grade coins, clean them and scan them before submitting. he thinks there may be some coin swapping going on and is positive there is some sloppy handling going on.

psxchelly

I must totally agree that PCGS is careless with coins.
Why else would my PCGS gold proofs AND gold biz strikes purchased from DIFFERENT dealers develope an ORANGE discoloration?
I will provide pics if no one else has seen this.

I have also yet to send MY fingerprinted IKE to Charlie, because I dont want to send it in without other coins... save on postage.

I really feel for you. Sorry about your coins.

dbldie55

This seems like the normal outcome, no surprise here.

pontiacinf

I hope to see a some kind of compensation or resolution to this case. This is not what I signed on for
an additonal 2 years. Things never go my way with the higher up, I just had a beauty anacs ms61bn(55/55 DDO) come
up a DNC, as well as Ive noticed ANYTHING done by PCGS for free is SUBSTANDARD (gradewise) and will
never become anything different regardless the coin.


HERES ONE GUY GLAD PNG SERVEY IS FLOATING.

pontiacinf

and also I will not be adding any additional money to their coffers.


ALTHOUGH I GREATLY APPREACIATE CAROL J

she is probably the only reason we even hang out here anymore.
(besides our friends that is)

pontiacinf

ummmmm

how does one know if its even THIER coin comming back?

if coins got that beat up, how can you say they are yours>?

just asking

BNE

Dakra -- Lawyers are expensive. (I know, I am one). You may want to think about whether the "game is worth the candle". . . . It may be more cost-effective just to buy replacements. (But I understand the desire to make a point, and try to get some satisfaction, too.)

In any event, if you go the legal route, make sure your lawyer sees the reverse of the submission form, which contains provisions he/she will want to know about.

I'm sorry about your disapppointment, and can understand your anger.

jtryka

If your lawyer doesn't get anywhere, then:

Step 1: Switch to NGC, probably similar problems occur occasionally, but at least from what I've seen they care about their customers.

Step 2: Exercise yourFirst Amendment rights by putting them up on eBay with a detailed description of what happened, and a warning to unsuspecting collectors on the dangers of PCGS, and make sure you feature it with a high reserve, so that it can be relisted for as long as you feel like venting.

littlewicher

Well, I guess we know why the ANA chooses NGC as their number one grading service. Rick Montgometry could care less about customer service, in my opinioin. I hope you're reading these, Rick. PCGS has a lot of cleaning up to do. The stupid fingerprints is another "sticky" (pun intended) situation. I honestly wouldn't expect PCGS to own up to their mistakes. I honestly think that there may be a crook working for PCGS right now. They really need to find out who's doing this to our precious coins. The past couple months I've been seriously thinking about doing all NGC submissions. NGC has excellent customer service, PCGS' customer service SUCKS!!!!!!!! Just my very honest and humble opinion. Maybe some of the PCGS workers are reading this right now and will at least make an effort to make the company better or PCGS will become another ACG. Obviously we don't want that happening, so I hope PCGS makes a sincere effort to clean up their act. That's all for now.

BSqr

TTT = To The Top

wondercoin

"ALTHOUGH I GREATLY APPREACIATE CAROL J

she is probably the only reason we even hang out here anymore.
(besides our friends that is):

HEY BILL: I GOT TO SPEND THE ENTIRE DAY WITH CAROL YESTERDAY!! TALK ABOUT AWESOME!!

Anyway, not to digress, I suspect Rick M. does not respond well to attorneys threats. First, he obviously BELIEVES he as done nothing wrong. Second, he has his own team of attorneys "chomping at the bit" to bill some legal time to the "big publicly traded company" he works for. A better approach might well be to take a deep breathe, grab your favorite libation (no alcohol for the minors) and write Rick a polite, yet direct email (rickm@collectors.com) expressing your point of view. Hey, once you are done trying to work it out with him amicably, you can always "sic" your attorneys on him thereafter - right? Wondercoin.

TWQG

I find it better for my sanity to just buy properly graded coins already in holders from reputable dealers and wondercoin (Thanks WC, that last shipment had monster eye appeal!!)

dakra

Thanks everyone for your input. My wife and I took a nice long walk tonight and I was pretty worked up about this whole situation.

Wondercoin... I would have wrote Rick a nice note but Rick made the decision that it was not their fault. After getting swept under the rug by the first CS rep and Charlie took charge, I wrote a letter and enclosed it with the coins outlining the issues with the coins, Rick's decision was that the issue did not originate at PCGS... although Charlie and Rick did apologize for the Dust inside the slab and the condition the slabs were in (but did not mention the hair inside the slab). They just layed the blame on either the US Mint or myself...

and in regards to having my lawyer contact them... For all intents and purposes, my coins lost value due to PCGS handing and they do not wish to take responsibility for their actions. At this point, it is the principle of the matter. I should not have to go back and forth with PCGS about who's at fault. I reported the problem to them, I wrote a letter outlining the issues, they admitted to part of the problem...which coincidentally was the easiest to "repair".... I mean... They can admit to the dust and obviously the hair but they can't admit to a droplet or any other foreign material inside the slab? The fact of the matter, they are going to try to get away with as little as they can... who am I? a tiny little customer... But I think I have a better chance of getting the resolution I am looking for If my Lawyer gives them a call. I would more than welcome the chance to settle this with Rick and although I have already asked him for his lawyers number, I will email him again when I have cooled off a bit more. (Ready for another walk with the wife!)

Thanks again Guys! I think I feel somewhat better knowing that others have had similar issues.
-David

gsaguy

These stories continue to amaze me and I do wonder sometimes if there's not something underhanded going on.

I think the idea mentioned by cointageous is an excellent on. Make a high quality scan of each coin before sending them. Since I'm assuming that none of these are MS 70 (flawless), make the scan such that the visible flaws show in the scan. Once the coins come back, if they have additional flaws such as scratches or fingerprints, it'd be easy to show the additional marks on another scan. Make sure the original flaw also shows that it can be compared to the original scan. While not a perfect method, I'd think that would be pretty powerful evidence to PCGS.

Just my thoughts.

GSAGUY

wondercoin

"reputable dealers and wondercoin (Thanks WC, that last shipment had monster eye appeal!!) "

Geez, I sure hope they are not mutually exclusive terms.


Any, that follow up letter (and second walk with the Ms.) sound like a perfect idea. And PCGS should be careful to inspect every slab before it ships to ensure foreign contaminants did not invade the slab. They could literally hire someone at $7/hr. to perform this task - I bet they could get 100 applications for this job if they offered it to a young numismatist interested in the hobby.

Wondercoin

IrishMike

I can't comment on the submission, because I have never submitted a coin for slabbing. However, I have had numerous experiences in dealing with letters from lawyers and phone calls. Only one time in 30 plus years did one make sense, we paid a nice settlement to a client because we were wrong and the employee involved was nuts. It would have taken a judge or jury about 30 seconds to figure that out. By the way she was hired against my wishes to begin with. PCGS has protected themselves, as they should with the documents used for submission. You have no way of proving that they caused the problems. It's a shouting match and without proof, I wouldn't put money into an attorney's coffers to make my self feel better. (hard lesson to accept). Except for that one time we never took a lawyer call seriously or a letter. It cost megabucks to bring a lawsuit and for the amount of money you are out, it isn't worth it. They have attorneys on retainer and can outspend you till the cows come home. Now before someone bashes me for not having sympathy you are wrong or bashes me for my comments on lawyers, let me say that only 99% of them make the others look bad.

TomB

I don't know diddly about the law so perhaps someone could let me know how likely it is that the plaintiff would win this case. I mean, as a scientist, I think there is simply no way, in this set of circumstances, that one could prove that the coins were damaged at PCGS. Just my thinking.

jamesfsm

As a lawyer, I would not be as concerned as the others about the disclaimers on the back of the PCGS form. If PCGS did something bad to the coins, it's a pretty clear case of liability. The problem, as Tom says, is one of proof. You cannot prove what the coins looked like when they were mailed to PCGS. If you came to me with a case like this (and without proof of the condition of the coins when they were sent to PCGS), I wouldn't take the case. I don't think many lawyers would.

I do think that PCGS should be more honorable about the way they handle these types of problems.

Sadly, I still think you (my opinion only) are stuck out of luck here though on the legal front.

dakra

I sat down and composed what I believe, is a nice letter to Rick...and if they open up a location in New York, I would be glad to work the weekends at $7 :-) just seeing all the coins, seeing how and why they graded a certain way... I don't think slabbing could ever get boring!

Good Night Everyone! Thanks for your feedback and thoughts!

...an overtired Dave

FrattLaw

As a lawyer also, I agree with some of Mike's comments, though some do dishearten me. And as James notes, the submissions forms are not problematic. However, one little guy - Dakra against UC is not going to make them sweat. However, a whole bunch of little guys joined together in a class action, does begin to make most companies pour sweat. I know that because that is actually what my firm does. Consumer Protection Class Action. And trust me a single letter stating that a potential class action exists makes most companies stand up and notice. In class cases, not only does the damages include those to the plaintiffs, they also include attorney's fees and you all know how expensive attorneys can be. And usually those types of cases costs 6-7 figures for defendants. And they usually start out as a dispute by a consumer for $10-$50. While, Dakra's situation may not be a typical class action, it may have some merit, depending on how many others have suffered similar problems and whether a class can be formed, depends on the factual basis surrounding the damages. I can't really say nor would I give legal advice in a forum. But it is food for thought.

Michael

------------------------------------------

MW Fattorosi Collection

Eisenhower Proofs
SBAs Proofs
Sac Proofs

DesertLizard

I have a $3 PCGS MS64 with a cookie crumb inside the holder! I did not get it slabbed myself but bought it that way, nice coin but the crumb is annoying. Will reholder it one of these days.

As for the lawsuit? Don't waste your time [and money], move on, life is short. Take your businesss elsewhere.

pontiacinf

Mitch if you see Carol again, give her a big kiss for me


you are surely one lucky dude

IrishMike

Frattlaw, my comment about lawyers was an attempt at humor. The law has always fascinated me and I admire those who practice it well as I do people in other professions that go about their trade in a professional and ethical manner. I fear any further comments about class action might get this thread deep sixed real quick.

wondercoin

"Mitch if you see Carol again, give her a big kiss for me"

Bill: Listen, PCGS may be in enough trouble with the "class" of scorned hobbyists suffering from being exposed to unsightly hair in their coin's holder. I don't want them to also risk the chance of a sexual harrassment suit after I grab Carol

Wondercoin.

tradedollarnut

that's the way the cookie crumbles!

EVillageProwler

Folks,

I was just thinking the same thing as FrattLaw: a class action suit is the way to go. A bunch of aggrieved plaintiffs all saying that the problem is with PCGS can't all be wrong?!? PCGS can't turn around and simply blame the Mint. It is not too likely that a judge or jury will believe PCGS when there is corroboration (in the form of multiple complainants).

In this case, I think the plaintiffs probably can muster a preponderance of the evidence, and I doubt that PCGS will want a judgement entered against them.

Finally, if PCGS deep six this thread, we can always take it to rec.collecting.coins or even the NGC message board.

My opinion for the next course of action is for the aggrieved to PM or otherwise contact Dakra. Hopefully this will result in a more consumer-oriented organization!

EVP

coindaughter

This begs for some sort of expose a la "20-20." Once they did a piece on diamond switching. They micro-etched an identifier on a diamond and gave it to various jewelers for re-setting or appraisal. When they looked at the diamond returned to them, they found that the jeweler often switched the diamond.

It would be great to have someone take some very very high quality photographs and send some coins in as a test and report the results. Anyone with in-roads to a journalist??

dakra

I just saved the thread just in case they deep six it :-) I also searched the message board for similar problems and saved those threads as well.

To be totally honest, I just want a happy ending to my situation. Rick did state "And in fact, PCGS will be happy to remove the mint made print and discoloration that you noted in your letter" but since I have already been told that those items effected the grade of the coin, I asked Rick if these coins would be regraded (waiting on a reply)

There is still the issues with the scratches that I am waiting for a reply. I brought up my lawyer, sent Rick my Lawyers number at a time when I was totally venting, I still plan to speak to my lawyer about my rights, especially since I feel I have been wronged. Will it go further than that... I hope not. Heck, if there was a Class Action against them and my issue was not resolved, I'd certainly put in my two cents but I doubt it will lead up to that... but 'ya never know'. The bad publicity would probably hurt them.

Again, I'm a peaceful man :-) I'd rather have all of this settled amicably. And as for seeing the amount of complains over the past few months on the message board, I would even settle for them handling this internally. I guess that's why I'm here... PCGS quality is going south and I want to wake them up to that fact.

Peace!
-David

wallstreetman

The homework has to be done before the coin is sent, statements, photos etc.... The coin would then need a signature by PCGS that the coins arrived undamaged!

FrattLaw

I am not advocating a class action suit against CU/PCGS. However, Dakra's attorney will get absolutely no where in regards to this issue. PCGS knows that one person alone will not be able to bring a viable suit. I was merely trying to point out alternatives to him.

Personally, I would suggest that Dakra try to shed as much light on this issue publically. Perhaps, editorial letters to Coin World, Coins, and other periodicals will let others know outside these forums what is actually happening at CU/PCGS. For one, it is a lot more cost effective and may cause the same results.

Unfortunately, I will continue to send coins to PCGS for certification. They still command the highest prices for resale. However, I will also look to NGC and ANACS for other coins and for other reasons. PCGS should have a place in everyone's collection, but it shouldn't be only service one uses.

As for the PNG survey, that will do little to change PCGS. Customer Service, Turn-Around Time and Quality of Holders only account for 10% of the survey grading. Even if PCGS fails in those three categories, they will still probably finish #1.

I really do believe that PCGS does take notice of these threads, their presence is not seen here, but I know for sure that BJ and others actually read these threads. I have even forwarded a couple to her in the past and she has given them to Charlie and Rick. Still, when all is said and done, PCGS is still the best grading service for value. The reason why is the real problem with CU/PCGS.

The real problem with PCGS isn't fingerprints, hair, sneeze spots, changing policies, scratches, ect, it is the inherient conflict of a grading company owning retail outlets for their service. This is what sets the price points for PCGS slabbed coins. However, it also cause a host of potential conflicts and problems for us as well as other dealers who are not a "CU" company. Just think about that for a moment and what conflict/monopoly issues it raises. We will see real change in PCGS when CU is forced to spin off PCGS as an independent company with its own Board of Directors and Officiers. Look to CU's prospectus and see who sits on the Board, if it is the same people Dakra is writing to, well there's your answer. Furthermore, do some CU dealers of PCGS coins sit on the Board? Think about that as well.

Again, food for thought. Remember the Lemming!

Michael

-----------------------------------------

MW Fattorosi Collection

Eisenhower Proofs
SBA Proofs
Sac Proofs

Gilbert

What the sam hill is "UC".

I don't mean any harm but hasn't this whole topic been blown out of proportion?

Look, if you aren't satisfied with their service, then file your consumer complaint, lodge a BBB complaint and take your business elsewhere. I really can't see how you have grounds for legal action, and as for a class action suit, well, I am not going to even try to address that. I will say that there is nothing, absolutely nothing that compels anyone to become a member of the PCGS collectors club, OR submit coins to PCGS for whatever reasons. When you do, you accept certain responsibilities, and even without a law degree, I think I can safely say that if you didn't personally hand your merchandise directly to a PCGS representative and get a signed receipt saying so, then how can you prove anything that occured happened at PCGS and not with whomever or whatever method you used to get it to PCGS. I don't think any of us has a contract for specific services that addresses recourse and/or arbitration should a disagreement arise, and I really don't see how even the lawyers can say don't worry about any disclaimers or such on the PCGS submission form, the very same one that essentially says you are doing this at your own risk. Somebody is going to have to come up with some hardcore proof to accomplish anything beyond a recommendation to take your business somewhere else.

I am not a PCGS advocate. I guess I'm just a little perturbed about how many people just jump into bed with PCGS with the ultimate intent of profitting from their services, but don't seem to really know how to, or just outright don't want to comply with the recommendations and requirements of the membership and submission privileges. THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK on the author of this thread - it is an expression of my opinion after a culmination of complaints, many or which APPEAR to be a direct result of unrealistic expectations.

I expect to take some heat for mouthing off, but, before you start flaming, at least make sure you fall in the category I've described. Thanks.

BlueCole

I will not flame anyone for there opinions--but if i send in an MS70 coin to PCGS, i expect to get an MS70 coin back. And that happens most of the time. But over the last 4-5 months, I have seen more and more complaints about fingerprints, a few less about scratches, hairs, and only one about a cookie crumb--WTF??????

The only answer, to me, is scans before you submitt. I do believe there is some viability to a class action, (all those peolpe can't be wrong!) Will i submitt to PCGS in the future. . .well. . . . .No, not at this time. Not only is their service being done incorrectly, they also refuse to see/believe it's their fault. Why would i trust my coins to someone like that?

B.

PS, i must admit i love the message boards--

BNE

It's not a class action. Class definition would pose a difficult problem ("all individuals who submitted clean and unblemished coins that came back with fingerprints/cookie crumbs/hairs/scratches/haze on them"?), and membership would be not objectively ascertainable: mini-trials would be required to establish each potential class-member's membership in the group; numerosity -- maybe, but you still have the definitional problem; commonality: a lot of problems here -- each slabbing is an independent activity subject to a host of variables; typicality: presents similar problems as commonality -- is there an "archetypical" plaintiff?; adequacy of representation: probably o.k., if other 23(a) hurdles were met. Then there are the (b) factors, and if this were an action for money damages, the requisite predominance would be even harder to establish than commonality. If we were in state court in California, as provided by the venue provisions on the reverse of the submission form, which we expressly agree to abide by when we sign the front of the form, predominance would be part of the basic test. This is a tough factor.

What this is, is a lot of unhappy people, and an issue that calls out for a little more customer service attention by PCGS. PCGS has a lot of loyal fans. I continue to have a hard time understanding why PCGS doesn't extend itseld just a little bit to cultivate and develop that goodwill. Why don't the higher-up visit the boards now and then, to cement a relationship with its clientele? Why doesn't PCGS respond sympathetically to complaints? There is so much value-added stuff PCGS could be doing that would increase its take: photo services, retail supplies, etc. There is such opportunity here, it baffles me why CU doesn't have the imagination to exploit its niche more thoroughly.