I have to admit to my ignorance....

its4real

I am going to try this and see if it
comes out right or not.....

A brief history of time:

I bought a few coins a few weeks ago on e-bay because they looked nice and
I thought it might be interesting. I have NEVER collected coins.

I bought a few more and then decided to go out and buy a book on
coins and their values. When I started receiving the coins,
I was shocked at how good they looked, being so old. I looked them
up in the book I had and the book said they were worth a lot more
that I had paid for them. I got a little excited - well not just a little - a lot!

I didn't know the first thing about grading. There was a small section
in the book I had just purchased on it - not too much. Then I found this forum/
board. I think I found it because I was looking for information on grading. I signed
up for the forum and forgot about it - it told me that I would get an e-mail in
a while.

A few days later, when I got the e-mail, I could hardly wait to put one
of these coins up for someones opinion. I did it and got RAVE reviews
on the 1885 Morgan. Everyone was nice and said a lot of nice things and
said it was this or that grade.

I went back and looked at the ads that I had bought the coins
from and they were basically bad ads. I had sold a few things before on e-bay
and knew that if you had a good ad, you would get more for your stuff.

I reasoned that if 1) the ad I had bought from was bad and 2) the coin was nice
and would grade high or get a favorable opinion from people, in this forum or any others, then I
could put it up on E-bay and turn a small profit.

I started looking for bad ads and buying raw coins (I know what RAW is now
and also know what slabbed is). I had purchased a 1968 mint set
and decided it was basically worthless and wanted to sell it back to someone.

I put it up with $5 shipping because I thought it weighed quite a bit.
It DID seem heavy....That was just bad judgement - I had no idea what it would cost to ship.
After a few days - there was no activity on the e-bay ad and I asked about it
in the forum. I was told that the problem was the shipping charge, which I
didn't believe (and still don't - look at the auction - all of 1 cent bid with shipping lowered to $2).
I asked the guy who said that
if he had ever shipped any mint sets - ignorant me - WRONG QUESTION.

It was this question and the subsequent responses that started all
this mess. I am sooo sorry I ever asked that question (I think I smarted off to Russ...sorry Russ) and sorry that I ever posted a single auction here. I have been in sales and marketing most of my life
and all I was doing was selling. Buying low and selling high. In my opinion, that is all I was doing.

I have had NO experience with the numismatic world - until my
contact with this forum (well actually, I had a penny collection as a kid -
even had a 1945 Steel penny - isn't that the right year?). I have,
believe it or not, learned a few things - not a lot - but a few.

After I got blasted for continuosly calling attention to my
auctions, I got ticked off because I had no idea that there were some
kind of set of rules. Also - the first time or two that I did it - no one complained.
So - it was okay the first time and the second, but now it wasn't okay?
Everything went downhill from there.

I tried to make amends by giving away that mint set. What happened?
I was told I was in the wrong forum and then constantly criticised.
After that, with the veiled threats about the auctions and such,
I just decided to leave it alone for a day. I cancelled any auctions,
changed the E-bay name (which, by the way was already planned - I had just purchased
the domain name: coinsandcards.com) and waited a bit.

The response here was strange to me. All of a sudden, you had
internet detectives acting like I was trying to hide or something -
It was REALLY beyond me what was going on. Why would anyone here
care? Why was I the topic of conversation 24 hours later? I really couldn't
figure that one out but it was at that point that I thought all of this had turned ridiculous.

Sure - I had reacted at first with a knee-jerk reaction to all of the criticism, sure
I would say that I acted like a jerk, sure my behaviour got a little out of hand - ever
had 72 people hurling insults at you so fast you didn't have time to read them all?

I cancelled auctions so that LEGITIMATE buyers wouldn't get shilled out
by the people here - that was all. I wasn't hiding for cryin out load. I'm already
hidden behind this user ID for goodnes sakes.
I was accused of all kinds of things other than just cancelling auctions.
You folks even thought cancelling them was WRONG.

Later I put auctions back up and was blasted for 1 of them( and JUST this one) - the 1900
Morgan auction. It had ALREADY been bid on when all of you decided that it was
the MOTHER OF ALL BAD AUCTIONS. Now I am in a quandry - should I cancel it and
then face the goon squad once again? Will I be berated because I, again, have
done something wrong?

The obverse on the coin looks pretty good,
and the reverse doesn't look nearly as bad as it does in the pic. I'm not SAYING it's an
MS anything! I have NO IDEA. I don't know the first thing about grading coins.
That's why I have to get an "expert" opinion. As far as buying the coin
on E-bay - of course I did! That's where ALL of the coins I have have come from.
Anything wrong with that? Some of you guys act like it's some
sort of crime to buy coins RAW on E-bay, show them to a few people,
get a few opinions on them, and then try and resell them.

Come on! What could possibly be wrong with that?

I would be glad to just end the auction and pull the coin and redo the ad.
Just don't act like a bunch of ninnies afterward. Once someone has bid,
you can't change or edit the ad - which I would be happy to do if I could.

Like I said - I have learned a lot just from hanging and reading stuff that has been posted.
The only things that have caused the "rubs" between myself
and some of you are pride and ignorance - and I will be the first
to admit my guilt of succombing to both of these.

I am writing to explain how everything "appears" from this side of the table,
and to apologize for my reactions to your comments and criticism. I am sure
that I have over-reacted several times. I am quite sure that it appears different from where you folks are sitting.

I sure hope that I don't come
back Sunday evening and find that I am still the number one topic of
conversation in this forum. While I do like attention, this has gone way too
far for even me.

One other thing - I want to say thank you for those of you who have
continually PM'ed me with words of encouragement throughout all of this.
I'm sorry I couldn't just ignore everything as you have recommended.

Now - can't we just get along? I admit my ignorance of this hobby and my
ignorance of it's unwritten rules. I am just trying to learn. Please give me a break.

Sincerely,
Mike

cladking

Sure wish I could help. That was a 1943 steel cent. And, no, the '68 mint set wasn't junk.

jtryka

you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot please all of the people all of the time. I was merely an observer on all the other threads, and to be honest I couldn't figure out what all the fuss was about, but then again I'm sure a lot of people just scratch their heads when I get all fired up.

mrdq

That sounds like an apology to the forum for "trollish" behavior and I'll accept it as it's given and happily bury the hatchet.

Welcome to the US coin forum, feel free to ask questions and offer advice where you see fit

kranky

I'll try to provide some perspective from my side (not picking on you, please understand).



<< <i>I didn't know the first thing about grading. There was a small section in the book I had just purchased on it - not too much. [snip] I could hardly wait to put one of these coins up for someones opinion. I did it and got RAVE reviews on the 1885 Morgan. Everyone was nice and said a lot of nice things and said it was this or that grade.

I went back and looked at the ads that I had bought the coins from and they were basically bad ads. I had sold a few things before on e-bay and knew that if you had a good ad, you would get more for your stuff.

I reasoned that if 1) the ad I had bought from was bad and 2) the coin was nice and would grade high or get a favorable opinion from people, in this forum or any others, then I could put it up on E-bay and turn a small profit. [snip] I have been in sales and marketing most of my life and all I was doing was selling. Buying low and selling high. In my opinion, that is all I was doing. >>



Here's how I saw it: you wanted to buy low and sell high, with no knowledge of grading, and use the forum members as the authorities you could quote in order to profit. I think we are saying the same thing, but notice how my phrasing sounds so much worse? It came across like we were being used. Coins aren't solely about making money (although it may seem like it sometimes), and you had that aura of "I don't know what I'm doing, but if I can find people who know even less, I might make a buck." We get very defensive when it looks like people are trying to exploit the uneducated collector. We like coins, and don't want to see people get taken.

I think many people here did understand that you just wanted to buy low and sell high. We didn't like the fact that you wanted to leech off our knowledge to do it.

Imagine if you ran the Smallville Antique shop. A person comes in with an item and asks if you know what it is and for your opinion. You comment favorably and the person leaves. You see them again at the weekend flea market selling the item at the table next to yours, with a sign that says "Smallville Antiques says this is a very high quality item!"



<< <i>After I got blasted for continuosly calling attention to my auctions, I got ticked off because I had no idea that there were some kind of set of rules. Also - the first time or two that I did it - no one complained.So - it was okay the first time and the second, but now it wasn't okay? >>



It's a community here. You got too defensive at the criticism for pushing your auctions in this forum. Most people will generally accept the fact that those things have their own forum when they realize no one else is doing it. You got upset and defensive instead of trying to fit in better.



<< <i>I tried to make amends by giving away that mint set. What happened? I was told I was in the wrong forum and then constantly criticised. After that, with the veiled threats about the auctions and such, I just decided to leave it alone for a day. I cancelled any auctions, changed the E-bay name (which, by the way was already planned - I had just purchased the domain name: coinsandcards.com) and waited a bit.

The response here was strange to me. All of a sudden, you had internet detectives acting like I was trying to hide or something - It was REALLY beyond me what was going on. Why would anyone here care? Why was I the topic of conversation 24 hours later? I really couldn't figure that one out but it was at that point that I thought all of this had turned ridiculous. >>



We see many, many shady operators use ebay to cheat people. They use the tactics of changing IDs, shill bidding, etc. They buy coins for $5, clean/polish/alter them, then put them back on ebay for $100 without mentioning what they did to the coin. So people who use ebay tend to get closely scrutinized. Your changing your ebay ID during the commotion just brought more suspicion. A lousy coincidence, I guess.

If you stick around you'll see that it's not unusual for ebay sellers to be scrutinized. Search some old threads for "Deb" and you'll see.



<< <i>The obverse on the coin looks pretty good, and the reverse doesn't look nearly as bad as it does in the pic. I'm not SAYING it's an MS anything! I have NO IDEA. I don't know the first thing about grading coins. That's why I have to get an "expert" opinion. As far as buying the coin on E-bay - of course I did! That's where ALL of the coins I have have come from. Anything wrong with that? Some of you guys act like it's some sort of crime to buy coins RAW on E-bay, show them to a few people, get a few opinions on them, and then try and resell them.

Come on! What could possibly be wrong with that? >>



If you buy a raw coin on ebay described as XF, then turn around and advertise it as MS, when we all know you don't know what you're doing, it looks like you're trying to cheat people. That's what it looks like. I'm not saying you WANTED to cheat people - just that it created the appearance.



<< <i>Like I said - I have learned a lot just from hanging and reading stuff that has been posted. The only things that have caused the "rubs" between myself and some of you are pride and ignorance - and I will be the first to admit my guilt of succombing to both of these.

I am writing to explain how everything "appears" from this side of the table, and to apologize for my reactions to your comments and criticism. I am sure that I have over-reacted several times. I am quite sure that it appears different from where you folks are sitting. >>



Yes, the combination of pride and ignorance made it very tough for you. When you don't even know what you don't know, being prideful doesn't give you a lot of credibility.

Personally, I'm glad you are learning. That's one of the big reasons I post here - to educate other collectors. Please try to understand most people don't take kindly to someone coming in here, making it obvious they are uneducated about coins, and then trying to sell coins on ebay using other people's comments to pump up the price. I will wager that if you hang around here for a few months learning, you will look back on this rocky period and see things the same way we did.

That's why I suggested you submit your Columbian half for grading - so you could learn.

I realize some of my comments may appear harsh, but believe me I hold no grudge against you. I'd like nothing more than for you to develop an enjoyment of the hobby and become a contributor to the boards! I believe your post shows a greater understanding of our point of view and I'm sure you'll no longer be the lightning rod for criticism. This long post is only to help you understand why you got the reactions you did. You already said you recognize things looked different from our side, so that's why I wrote all this.

Rotts

Be at war with your vices, at peace with your neighbors, and let every new year find you a better man.
-- Benjamin Franklin
Welcome to the forum.....Learning here is sometimes a challenge,you pick out the good stuff and throw out the rest.It becomes easier to see the bad in people rather than look for the good..Because no matter what or how hard they try there is good in everyone..Hang in there or here...Rotts

Bear

TTT

keets

it might be helpful for you to understand that your actions are exactly the reason why WE responded the way we did and do. been there already!! most of us at one time have experienced a con artist at work and tend to get a bit excited when we recognize another one.

i'm not ready myself to welcome you into the fold after the things that have taken place in the last week or two. i forgive but i don't forget. perhaps you're just trying to gain our confidence back again, i don't know. the nature of the web absolutely demands a level of confidence and trust that doesn't take place in every day person-to-person interaction. i can't go see someone 1000 miles away about a $100 transaction that goes bad as i could the merchant in the shopping plaza down the road.

i appreciate your attempt at trying to start fresh. most people tend to view pride as a character asset when the truth is that it's a character defect that needs to be constantly policed. your admission of that much is a good start. settle in like most of us do. crawl before you walk, walk before you run and you'll soar high eventually.

al h.

dakra

I've kept low key on this issue but that doesn't mean I wasn't intriqued by what was going on. What I'm going to post is just my opinion of the subject and I hope you do not feel as though I am bashing you.

Forum members began to get aggravated by two things.
1. The "What Would You Grade This?" Questions. Why, because it appeared as though you used the highest grade mentioned here to sell the coin on ebay and then attributed it to the forum, perhaps not directly but indirectly. At that point, you had some forum members feeling as though they helped you fleece people on Ebay.

2. Posting in the wrong forum. In a previous message you mentioned you posted on Google. On the Usenet you pick the appropriate topic for your message right?... but then when others explained to you that coins for sale don't belong in this forum, that they go in the B/S/T board, you got pretty irate. I believe one of your justifications was since more people are on this board, this would be more appropriate.

Random Thoughts... I'm pretty new at coin grading. Although I have learned a great deal and sometimes I come pretty close, I would not be comfortable with putting a Raw coin up and suggesting what grade it could be. You might think a coin is beautiful, you may think it's flawless but as you are inexperienced in grading, you may not know what to look for.... What makes a coin an AU58/MS60... When you post pictures here, the flash could hide damage to the coin, when people give you their opinion, the opinion is what they see in the picture. Your picture could look like an (ie) MS64, but when someone looks at it with the naked eye, it could be (ie) AU58. In your ad, the person believes that it is an MS64, they turn around and show a dealer friend who tells them they just got ripped off, they contact you and you say???

"Gee, I don't know how to grade, I just went with the opinion of the collectors universe message board"
..."Here's the link......."

I have learned a great deal from this message board and not just about coins but sleezy ebay sellers, I have seen some great advice, have become a better grader, picked up some good books on the advice of others and although I cannot give too much back yet, eventually I hope I can. This is a great place to pick up information. I feel as though I have stepped on some toes as well here but everyone forgot about my little tap on their toes when you stomped on them!

Relax, Listen, Learn!
-David

goyankeez

I've been following this story since last weekend, and am glad it has started to clear up. Hopefully all is forgiven and forgotten.

Mike- if you're still interested in the hobby, this forum is a great learning experience. Reading some beginner books will help, and you can search the archives of this forum for newbie questions. There is plenty of information out there. I'm relatively new, but grading is tough. A nice shiny old coin may appear mint state, but may actually be XF. It depends on a lot of factors inluding strike detail, luster, areas of rub, etc. A picture may hide a lot of these characteristics. Looking at books, submitting coins to PCGS, asking questions about how to grade a specific series, looking at graded coins,etc. can teach you a lot about grading.

I'm not a dealer, just a beginning collector, but as far as I know, there's no easy way (ethically) to make money in this hobby, especially on ebay. It takes a lot of time and experience to be able get to that point. Maybe some dealers on this board can point you in the right direction. Good luck in those pursuits.

I'm glad you came clean and posted this email, and hopefully you will enjoy your stay on this forum.

goose3

IMO,
it says alot for you to post this.

stick around and soak up some of the knowledge floating around here. (and some of the b.s.)

IrishMike

A wise man once told me "attitudes beget attitudes". I have only been here a short time and during that time you by far have taken the most criticsm of any new person I have seen arrive. You brought it on yourself by your trollish behavior. Having said that if you truly want to learn about the hobby, welcome aboard.

dakra

Mike,
"Photograde" by James F. Ruddy. I actually wasn't thrilled with the book at first but looked at some of the more popular coins in the book. It gives a pretty good examples of what to look for. It gives explainations of the grades up to AU-50. I figured it would explain higher grades but it only gives subjective details on that.

One of the best ways I learned to grade (and I'm still learning) was by going to ebay and looking at all the graded coins. Generally I have been looking at PCGS coins as I believe them to be the strictist in the business. Although I still see some and say "Why did this get an MS68 while this one received an MS69..etc..." unfortunately sometimes it's better to have the coin in your hand rather than going by a picture.

-David

TomB

I hope that you enjoy numismatics, that you enjoy the Boards and that you can contribute positively to both. Last week was ugly and I read this in the posts of more than one member, not just you. If you are sincere, and I don't have any real reason to doubt that you are not, then this should all work itself out quite quickly. Welcome aboard.

coindaughter

Mike,

From one "non-collector but person who wants to learn" to another:

Thank you for your explanation and apologies. I was one who was watching, rather amazed, on the sidelines.

If you stick around, you will learn a lot. These folks are extremely knowledgable and helpful, and they LOVE coins. They are also defensive of coins, each other, and the hobby in general. If you respect them and their knowledge, they will respect you and yearn to help you.

Watch and absorb, and you will become part of an amazing world. One much more interesting than making a quick buck.

Thanks again,
CD