Do David Hall and Bowers and Merena Sell at Full List

Typetone

I notice that the list prices at David Hall Rare Coins and Bowers and Merena are usually much higher than at other lesser known competitors. From those who deal with them, do they actually sell at these prices, or do they typically offer large discounts to customers.

Let's see if PCGS lets this thread remain

Greg

DAM

I saw the thread and thought I better reply before it's deleted.

For years I've been aware of the, in some cases, dramatic price difference they charge. I'm glad to know it's not just me that's noticed it.

If these dealers are not willing to deal on a coin I'm interested in, getting the price down to a more reasonable level, my policy has been to wait until the coin gets into the hands of another dealer and then I buy it. Unless it's a coin I just can't live without.

One more thing:

I recently contacted DHRC about a Proof Ike. When I asked what they could sell the piece for the response was "no discount". I was quoted "their" buy price. This was about what I purchased the coin for from another dealer. Was DHRC's Ike far superior to the one I bought? You'd have a tough time convincing me of that.

littlewicher

I've always thought that their prices were higher then what you can normally obtain them at. Of course, I realize that they have some of the finest known coins and deserve a premium, but not that much of a premium!

keithdagen

My favorite is DHRC's listing of modern commems. Look at any gold $5 piece, and then compare the prices to E-Bay. DHRC lists the same coins on E-Bay, with BIN prices anywhere from $25 to $100 lower than the prices on their website.

I gave up on Bowers when they started doing the imaging on request only bull. Why can't dealers image all (or most of) their inventory before posting it?

Russ

<< <i>DHRC lists the same coins on E-Bay, with BIN prices anywhere from $25 to $100 lower than the prices on their website. >>



Same thing in the proof Kennedy series. I've purchased several from him on eBay, but none from his site.

Russ, NCNE

keithdagen

I went so far as to e-mail them and ask why they had that policy, and how you could get those lower prices without having to call them direct or go through E-Bay. Want to guess if I ever got a response?

RELLA

I have recently been buying regularly from DHRC...I don't even bother to ask about a coin unless I already like the coin at the listed price. Some of their coins have great prices in my opinion while others have adsurdly high prices. Coins that are new to their inventory are always quoted to me at their list price; with coins that have been there a long time (months) I am usually quoted a price 5-10% below their listed price but never lower. I don't buy coins from B&M for reasons that I won't get into here.

RELLA

littlewicher

Plus we all know about the insider grading going on with David Hall.

Keyrock

I like to call and ask for a photo, just like asking for a POR. Maybe if enough people request pictures they will just post them.

Regarding purchases, they generally are higher and I have picked up a few here and there but they must be PQ if I pay the higher price and IMO they are. I will ususally look to them if you can't find them elsewhere. I have watched a few drop in price and enter back into retail world too but they are pricey

HuliganRS

I agree...

They do charge too much...

WalkerGuy

As a pretty new guy here, would you (littlewicher) mind being specific about "the insider trading that everyone knows about with David Hall"? Do you know specifically, or just at the gossip level?
Dick

toothpuller

Walker Guy Reread what Littlewicher wrote - it says insider grading, not insider trading. Both David Hall Rare Coins and PCGS [the grading service] are owned by Collectors Universe, the kindly sponsor of this message forum. Littlewicher is implying that by this relationship that DHRC has access to a higher level of grading for their coins from PCGS. A discounted price for grading can be taken for granted. This is especially an advantage when selling generic moderns ie commemoratives etc. As for rare coins they may be a little high in asking price, but more often than not the coins are pq and worth more because their buyers seem to find some of the better coins and probably pay stronger money for them.

dbldie55

Walkerguy, welcome to the boards. Most people here just ignore comments by littlewicher, you will probably learn to do the same.

WalkerGuy

Amazing what a single keystroke can do! I indeed meant to type grading instead of trading, thank you for pointing out my error. All of that aside, the question still stands.
A bit more on the original thread concerning pricing. My experience over the years, is that every dealer has more than one price. The more business I do with a dealer, the more he will negotiate a price. The same goes if I am trying to sell him a coin - better customer, better deal.
IMHO, it only stands to reason, that premium coins go to premium buyers, and slow movers, will go to a secondary market and sell possibly at a reduced price. Pretty much standard practice - look at all of the outlet malls and stores like Pick and Save.

Typetone

Walker Guy:

As said, Collectors Universe owns PCGS, DHRC, and Bowers and Merena. David Hall is the largest shareholder in Collectors Universe (CLCT). The question is whether DHRC and Bowers get better grades from PCGS. While I haven't bought alot from DHRC and Bowers, what I have bought has seemed fair to conservatively graded. So, I have no evidence to support the allegation.

From my experience, neither dealer is willing to negotiate price unless they have had the piece for some time. I have bought less from either than I could have, for that reason. I started the thread to see whether others have had more success than I negotiating with the CLCT group.

Greg

IrishMike

I just lost out on a thousand dollar quarter in the Long Beach auction. The coin sold for $1125 with the vig. R&I sold one same grade and holder for $1500 two weeks ago. DHRC has the coin on sale on his site for $1095, David Lawrence has one for sale for for $1035. Based on this one coin I would say DHRC has a fair price, less the the Long Beach sale, way less than R&I and slightly more than DLRC.

JJacks

I just wanted to say something here. It doesn't bother me when a dealer is asking "Book" or more for a real PQ type coin, or something that is harder to find. What I do find annoying is some places like these mentioned when they sell fairly common stuff way over what the current "Real (ebay)" market is. For example, I just did a search on a coin I need, completed auctions. 1978P Ike in PCGS MS65. Three samples have gone from $30-$40 approx. I wouldn't mind seeing a dealer asking $50 or $60, or maybe even $70, but check out what some of these dealers want for those coins. And they aren't claiming the coins are real high end or anything. This is what annoys me and quite honestly costs them my business.

JJacks

grip

jjack,
I went thru a simular scenerio a few weeks ago.This is how it went in short..I bought a coin from a well known dealer who does post here at times,a 1886-O MD as high end 64 and had a dealer(well known) intrested in the coin .He had the coin looked at by anX pcgs grader and another dealer and sent the coin back to me...Than i had another dealer whom I have bought quite a few coins from and have been verey happy with have intrest in the coin,I did the same and he sent it to three dealers to view.The outcome=
If i broke it out and resubmitted it would come back 63 MAX.I lost $2000 on the coin and never will I darken there doorstep again.I will tell you the dealer but only by PM.Al

Bear

Just a few thought to some of the replies to this thread.
As for David Hall getting more favorable grading, I would not make such a comment or charge without proof. . Such proof would be DH coins being wildly overgraded which they are not. At least not any better or worse
then any other collector or dealer seems to get from PCGS.

As for the same type coin in the same grade holder , selling for different prices, I would like to compare both coins side by side before saying they are comparable. We have talked before as to the range in quality of coins within the same gradeholder. Bear, and apparently a rather grumpy bear this morning.

grip

Bear,
You said a paw full.The quality of the coin will dictate the price .=Low,Med,High end,or one that just made it.That's four different prices without taking in the rarity of the coin.Al

DeepCoin

Interestingly B&M is presently selling a 1916-P Merc in 67 for 895 that was for sale on DHRC for 750 six weeks ago. It is a 66 that upgraded (pop 1 in No Bands). A 67FB recently sold for about 820 on eBay, so go figure.

Both dealers have nice coins, and sometimes they are bargains and sometimes not.

You just have to know your series. The one thing I will say is that I have never been disappointed with the quality of a coin I have purchased from either of them (not extensive buying, but some). I am a satisfied customer, but I look for value. Some of their coins are too much for me for the coin, but that is true for lots of dealers as they are in business to make money.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Does David Hall Rare Coins and Bowers and Merena Sell At Full Retail ?

I can say as I know firsthand that David Hall pays very good money to buy coins.He is not at all afraid to step up to the plate.As so he has wonderful coins from time to time.There is NO RETAIL FOR WONDERFUL COINS. It is called an opportunity.
I recently bought a 1978 s cent graded Pr 69 D Cam for $29 from him.I bought the same date and grade from another dealer for $75 a week earlier.

My experience with Bowers and Merena is that they like to buy as cheaply as possible and sell for as much as they can get.
Their auctions are a different story.

Stewart

Typetone

Stewart:

I bought one of the 78S Lincolns in PCGS 69DCAM as well for $29. Seemed like a wonderful deal. The coin was phenomenal. Also bought one of the 82s which was also great.

Greg

roadrunner

I've seen both of their ads over many years and it's hard to come to any conclusion except of course they sell at full retail and then some. Never have bought a coin from DHRC. I bought one coin from a B&M via fixed price list only once in 30 years and that was a $20 better date seated half in VG.

roadrunner

cointime

Greg,
Good topic. I have not bought any coins from DHRC, but did lately buy a coin on e-bay. It is a 1941-s Merc. in a soft slab (if you will) graded by them as ms65FB. Now we all know most coins traded are 3rd party graded, so I wanted to find out anything they could tell me about when they coin sold, if the still use the same method of soft slabbing raw coins, and/or do they still do this? I use outlook express and have it set to request a (ya they read it) reply. Two people read this and neither replied. Its been about 2 weeks now. Its no big deal, but I sure will think twice about buying coins from them most certanly now.
Oh, and yes I read their listings in Coin World and do beleive they are quit higher than most. I attribute this to supply and demand..as far as them knowing the registrys' popularity and they may even feel most will end up coming back because of availability of the coin. As Stewert put it... "It's an opportunity"

Ken
edited to correct spelling

Cocoinut

After B & M' s predecessor, Bowers and Ruddy, was sold by General Mills, I recall reading that they were required to sell their coins at a 100% profit. That means they'd buy a coin at $50 and sell at $100. It wasn't hard to believe, seeing what their selling prices were, and most of B & M's prices today seem to follow a similar pattern. Half of their selling price might be reasonable if you were selling to them, but their retail prices are consistently on the high end of retail.

There are a number of large dealers that sell at substantial premiums. This allows them to turn their inventory less frequently than others, but also allows them to maintain a stock of better coins. If they have a scarce, PQ coin, I'll sometimes splurge and buy it. If it doesn't live up to my expectations, it's returned.

Jim

wondercoin

I've bought some great buys this year from these guys. For example, a nickel in PCGS-PR68 they sold me recently is the nicest coin imaginable. Superb rainbow coin!! You get what you pay for Wondercoin.

DAM

wondercoin,

I would assume you bought at wholesale?

As for good coins, I agree they have good quality coins. As much as most seasoned dealers do. Just pricey.

wondercoin

DAM: When one is buying PR68 material from 1936-1942, I'm not sure the lines between "wholesale" and "retail" even exist. I saw a coin off their site and struck a deal on the coin like I would with any other "retail" seller.

Often times, when I am buying a coin for a customer, I am fine to work on a markup of 10% (15% for lower value coins). If I can get a seller to reduce the price by 10%, it really makes the purchase that much easier. But, I know for a fact that an outfit like DHRC works with collectors as well on price where appropriate. I often get calls from collectors I work with asking me if a certain (reduced) price sounds like a reasonable buy on a coin. The collector usually knows he has a super winner when I ask him to split the coin with me - hey that reduces the amount of calls too!! Wondercoin.

northcoin

It was rather eye opening to learn from another thread by another dealer that there is a two tier system when it comes to coin pricing. Dealers sell to dealers for one price and to the general public for another. Unless you establish a relationship sufficient to be looked at as a fellow dealer there are a number of dealers who will simply refuse to sell the same coin to you for the reduced price they will allow it to go to if being purchased by a fellow dealer. I guess their assumption is if they need to just move the coin they will do it between themselves.

Bellportman

I have always been satisfied with the few coins (mostly Washers) I've purchased from DH. I bought a 32D Washer in 64 from him for $4250, I sold the same coin for $8625 or so, at the Heritage Auction this spring. (Had the coin for 4 months).

I've picked up some others which have been shown to be correctly graded and downright awesome coins for strong money. There is the fact that they were stong coins...

Big coins, big money.....

fcloud

Bowers and Merena is now owned by NATC. Maybe they will change some of their ways. I was able to get a deal from NACT with about three days (six phone calls) of negotiation. The old Bowers and Merena just laughed when I asked for a lower price on a coin. I hope the change is for the better!

Toningintheblood

Tony (fcloud) is correct. B & M auctions and B &M Retail are now operated under the Spectrum Numismatics International organization. NACT is also a member of the Spectrum group. There are new and different faces now serving both companies, along with a few handpicked veterans remaining from the old B & M group. Old stories and past dealings should be filed away. The new parties involved are changing and revamping many of the old ideas that needed changing, but keeping the great reputation and service of the old Bowers and Merena name.

As far as DHRC, I agree with Mr. Blay, David Hall's group always seeks out the very best coins available in PCGS holders. They do not buy run of the mill coins, but only eye appealing, attractive examples for which you pay the added premium for the caliber and quality product you are purchasing. I also believe the policy of DHRC was the fact that they do not submit or upgrade coins themselves with PCGS. They buy their inventory only from other dealers or collectors, this also includes the "modern" era PCGS material too. So, if that is the case, DHRC does not get favorable treatment or grading from PCGS. They are no longer a part of Collectors Universe, and operate as a separate entity. Negotiation of pricing is probably the function of supply and demand. Most any sales situation involves some give and take. The overall scenario of coincollecting is to buy the nicest coin at the right price, dictated by current market conditions and availability.

BNE

I've notices that DHRC has seemed to have largely backed out of the modern biz, at least in Jefferson nickels.