A question for dealers and anyone else who would care to chip in...

FC57Coins

Every once in a while I see a very good date coin housed in an ACG slab and have to wonder to myself, is the seller just trying to put one over on collectors or is there a problem with the piece? Please look at the page below and give me your opinion - I think us newer guys would appreciate your input.

Frank

1895-S Morgan in an ACG slab - WHY????

Tonelover

Can not tell from a scan, but I would just assume that something is terribly rotten in the state of Denmark. Wouldn't give that coin a second look myself. A pretty general statement that isn't backed up by a lot of reasoning , just backed up by common sense.

Sealyp

Looks like a good scan, but I have gotten burned once by an AGC slab. Cracked it out, sent it to PCGS only to get it back in a body bag for AT. Myself, I wouldn't by any of the high ticket coins in an AGC unless I could put and eyeball on it first.

prooflike

I bought a ACG MS65 21-D Morgan(that looked really good in the scan too) for less than 63 money, thought I was getting a good deal. Had to return it, lightly cleaned and PVC damage. There is a reason the coin is in an ACG slab, it couldn't be slabbed elsewhere. My guess, it is cleaned.

Like they say, "Friends don't let friends buy ACG slabs."

dragon

FC57,

I will tell you this, if you took 100 random ACG slabs and looked at the coins, I think you'd find at least 98 of them overgraded by any other standards (some severly), a problem coin that nobody else would touch, or an otherwise undesirable coin for some reason.

There is a DEFINATE reason that a few shady dealers choose to submit to ACG and offer them on Ebay at discounted prices, and I think most people already know what that reason is....BECAUSE THEY'RE CRAP!

This Ebay seller is a PRIME example of what I'm talking about and there are also a few others on Ebay that do the same. It is these lowlifes and con men that keep ACG in business IMO.

DO NOT think that you will be able to snag a bargain on an ACG graded coin from any of these individuals, they are not fools, and they KNOW what they have, and they KNOW what it's worth. Whenever you see an ACG coin that APPEARS to be correctly graded and problem free AND going too cheap, there's a reason for it.

Dragon

FC57Coins

Agreed:

I guess my confusion is this... At even MS60, this coin would probably fetch around $1,000. Now, why not get it graded by PCGS or NGC and be done with it, as opposed to having it in a very questionable slab. I can understand leaving common date coins in whatever slab they happen to reside and being done with it - but an 1895 S?

Frank

FC57Coins

Believe me Dragon - I wouldn't touch this coin with a 10 foot pole, but I guess I wanted to post this question and get some of the more experienced people to lend their opinions in the hopes that some of the newer members would read your thoughts and take heed. I do appreciate your input and I do concur with you that there are a lot of lowlife people out there trying to scam unsuspecting collectors.

Regards,

Frank

Catch22

My guess is a dip or cleaning.

stujoe

Rob0126

Just at glance, it looks cleaned. the pic isn't very sharp so their could be some hidden 'features'.

Robert

walkerman

Always remember: If it looks too good to be true,It probabaly is.This goes for any thing in life not just coins.caveat emptor!!!

FC57Coins

<< <i>Always remember: If it looks too good to be true,It probabaly is.This goes for any thing in life not just coins.caveat emptor!!! >>



Walker:

This brings up the next obvious question which is - If you buy the coin and not the holder, then what's the use of having grading services in the first place, if some of them can't be relied on at all!?!

I can't tell you how many shows I've been to where I've looked at coins in ACG, SEGS, PCI, and similar such holders, and when I start talking price with these dealers, they insist that the coin is properly graded and at a fair price, when you know darn well it's not, so you tip your hat and move on - but you always leave with a bad taste in your mouth that some newbie will scarf up good money based on an empty promise. Now - this doesn't mean that I'm badmouthing SEGS and PCI if any of their folks are looking in, its just my experience based on coins that I've seen and using my own limited experience grading some coins.

Frank

DCAMFranklin

<< <i>I would think that any dealer selling that expensive of a coin (either their own or on consignment), would be smart enough to know that having it in a a different slab would maximize their (or their customer's) profits on ebay.

This is not a coin where the slabbing fees matter at all. They would be a small fraction of the coin's worth. So, if it is not in the holder that would put the most money in a dealer's pockets, I have to ask myself 'Why is it not?'.

None of the answers that come to mind make me very comfortable. >>



I haven't even taken the time to look at the auction in question. So, I don't know if the seller is a known dealer. He may be. However, in another similar instance, Members might not know the seller to be a dealer. In fact, in that case the overwhelming odds are that the seller is just a collector. That coin could have passed from one collector to another many times. Let's face it fellows, there are a lot more collectors out there with NO experience submitting coins to PCGS or NGC, than there are who have prior experience. It isn't even close! Many of those collectors have listened to one dealer after another make claims about small collectors attempting to submit coins to PCGS or NGC on their own and getting tubed. There are SO many dealers out there that have tried to scare small collectors away from their own submissions and utilize the dealer's submission to gain future business. Thankfully, those days are beginning to end. The internet has made collectors' reliance on any one city's dealers' inventory and "expertise" a thing of the past! This huge segment of the small collector population has a fear factor that is so high, they would never attempt to crack the coin out of the ACG holder and submit it to PCGS or NGC. In this kind of an instance, the seller could be a small collector with no experience in submission just wanting to sell an ACG coin. They turn to Ebay, since they heard from a friend that it is a good way of marketing items to a whole nation of collectors. THAT is how a coin may retain the ACG holder, even if the coin is worthy of a nice grade from from PCGS or NGC. For any of us to ALWAYS assume the pessimistic angle of a seller's intention and negative history of a coin, seems a little harsh to me.

koynekwest

stujoe-
A very good point. There is probably some kind of a problem that is not evident here-may be artificial frosting.
I would avoid it at all costs.

koynekwest

Don't understand your negative bias for SEGS. I've slabbed with them for a long time-I think they are a good slabbing service and certainly not to be compared with bottom feeders such as PCI.

roadrunner

Besides probably being cleaned there is an excellent chance the coin is only a proof-like. Could be artificially toned and frosted to boot. It's probably only a 63 at best. OK......now take your chances. This was like bidding blind back in the 1970's! Good luck.

roadrunner

FC57Coins

<< <i>Don't understand your negative bias for SEGS. I've slabbed with them for a long time-I think they are a good slabbing service and certainly not to be compared with bottom feeders such as PCI. >>



Everyone has had "experiences" with different grading services, and I'm not slamming SEGS too much, but my experience with them has not been so great, at least with Franklins. I've found their grading to be someowhat haphazzard, especially on some of the rarer pieces like 1953S halves, they seem to be too willing to assign FBL to coins which really don't deserve it - that's just what I've seen.

Frank

stujoe

braddick

That DMPL could possibly be etched and if so, and if done correctly, would be difficult to detect. Not so difficult PCGS or NGC (or really the others: ANACS and SEGS) wouldn't pick it up, but ACG either chooses not to or can't.

If that coin was what it states it is it wouldn't be in that holder, plain and simple. I know that. You (in your hearts) know that and trust me: THE SELLER knows that!

Dog97

It looks artificially frosted. See the frost running into the field, especially under Liberty's chin? It looks cleaned, see the retoning shadows around the stars? Looks like a staple scratch by the wreath under the left wing, 62 material even if it had no other problems. 5 die varities for the 95-S, 4 are S/S or tilted S & 1 normal die. The date looks like a far date to me which would make it an altered 95-O or P.

danreller

Hi Frank,

I have several comments.

First, the pictures are not as sharp as would be desired. This is typical of ACG coin Sellers. Why is that usually the case? I have noticed a trend to larger pictures though. These pictures do not reveal enough information as needed to make an informed decision.

Second, as a previous member posted, why choose ACG for such a desirable coin? If I had a what I thought was a MS65 DMPL 1895-S I certainly wouldn't choose ACG - not with their reputation and resale value.

Third, I think this coin has seen some circulation. The pictures are poor, but, what's that dark area in the hair above the ear? Also notice the difference in color in the field around the stars and letters where handling would change the way the metal would "corrode" differently due to exposure to finger oils, etc...

If you are seriously intersted in this coin, I would ask the seller to send you more detailed pictures.

Dan

darktone

I say it is artificially frosted also and this means it is a damaged coin only worth a small fraction of the value if it was in a PCGS slab at this grade. mike

FC57Coins

As previously mentioned, I wouldn't touch this coin with a 10 foot pole. I'm glad we've gotten a lot of replies to this thread - hopefully some of the newer collectors will see this and realize that in this hobby there IS no Santa Claus. As for me, the only way I would make an investment of this type would be to hold the coin in my hand and hope I remembered everything I've learned here so far. Thanks folks!

Frank

gemseeker

I am one of the newer collectors on this forum. As for being a Morgan dollar collector, this coin would seem to be quite a find. But with the ACG holder on it, one would have to pause and ask oneself several questions.
1) Since the coin is such a rare one with supposed high grade, why was ACG used to slab it?
2) Was one of the previous owners in dealing with ACG in the past?
3) What was the previous history of ownership of this coin?
4) The coin is supposed to worth tens of thousands of dollars. Since the reserve is supposed lower, I am sure that the reserve prices is not far off from the supposed market value, so the likelihood of snaring a bargain are slim.

I recently purchased a 1901 Morgan dollar that was supposed to be GEM BU condition which would have put the value in the hundreds of thousand dollar range. Upon inspecting the coin closer, it had numerous bagmarks and had a very suspicious texture on the reverse side. I sent the coin back and got a refund. So I tread very carefully for any coin costing over $300. Beware of coins where the premium shoots up by a wide margin with a one step grade difference.

DesertLizard

The toning looks strange but you can never be sure with scans.

Overall it does not add up why such a rare coin is in an ACG slab.

Also is the concern of the dealer who sells what looks like exclusive ACG slabs!! Run, run fast!

walkerman

Well Frank, You are right in questioning dealers who try to pass off acg, segs,pci and the like as accurately graded and equivalent to the two major grading services.Keep in mind that these slabs are nearly without exception purchased by these dealers at a huge discount and should be resold the same way.I agree with stujoe that no dealer would knowingly discount an expensive coin if he thought there was even a chance it would cross into a pcgs or ngc holder at the same grade.I have bought and sold a very few anacs and icg coins that I thought were solid for the grade and have never had one returned.But bear in mind I bought them at a discount and sold them the same way.The rest of the services I don't deal in at all.On the occasion that I see a nice coin in one of these holders and buy it I immediately crack it out and attempt to get it into a holder from either of the two majors.I fully expect it to grade a grade lower and have calculated that into my purchase price.I have never gotten a happy surprise and have one cross at the same grade,but I also have not gotten any body bags.As far as buying one online -- fuhgeddaboutit.You just can't determine surface quality from a picture.A good rule of thumb is if you're not sure --walk. Remember "the priceless ingredient of any coin transaction is the integrity of the dealer" Dave W

Rob0126

Sounds good walker. I will say I trust anacs grades.

That said; I provide clear scans of my coins that I sell on ebay, and huge blowups.
It is true that you can't find every detail on the surface of a coin with a scan, unless, it doesn't have a shiny surface(like a silver quarter).

Now, knowing that you can't see all the imperfections with a scan at best, I explain every little nick and bleamish that I can see. I also offer a refund for 7 days from post date. I figure it's pretty fair, and gives the person the time to determine whether they like the coin or not.

I figure, being up front, is good business, and your customers will appreciate the honesty.

The downside to being honest and offer a refund, is that I can't cheat someone out of their money, o well.... Better to get $50 for a $70 coin, than $120 for a body bag candidate, and get a bad rep, possibly never sell another coin on ebay, etc.

Plus, it's just plain Right!

Robert

walkerman

Amen Robert, There's no way to estimate how much future business one unhappy customer can cost us.One guy sent back back a coin because of a small chip in the ridge of the holder.He's wrong but it doesn't matter.Sent him his refund and moved on.Life is too short for hassles.If the coin is really nice it will sell again.In this case it did right away with buy it now for a better price.Just keep on doing "the right thing" and you'll be just fine.

BillJones

This coin has definitely been dipped a good deal more than once. That alone would get it out of the MS-65 grade, and if it’s really been fried it’s a body bag candidate.

It’s not unusual for this date to be a proof-like, but I too would be concerned about frosted devices. You can’t tell for sure with a scan like this, but the frosting may have come from outside the mint.

Only a moron would put an expensive coin in ACG holder if it can qualify to go into anything else.

MacCoin

good date but it still looks over graded to me. a little rough for a 65

66Tbird

artificially frosted was the first thing that hit me, then he odd area around the lower neck (7:00),

BillJones

The temptation here to get involved with ACG slabs because you think might get “a deal.” it reminds me of my feelings when I hear a collector say he prefers to deal with stupid or poorly educated coin dealers ‘cause he “knows” he can get a rip and beat them.

IT USUALLY DOESN”T WORK OUT THAT WAY!

Most stupid guys get picked off and then they go out of business because they don’t have any material left. If guy who looks stupid stays in business for an extended period, there’s a good chance that he’s a fox in turkey suit. He’s probably using some angle to beat people. I don’t like dealing with crooks because you’ve got work very hard to beat them, and sometimes they find a way to beat you.

That’s how I feel about ACG material. Buying ACG coins on the Internet like buying very expensive raw coins in a dimly lit room. It’s crap shoot in which the house supplies the dice, and you don’t get to examine them until you have paid your money. If the coin is any good, you’ve got to crack it and resubmit it somewhere else. And sometimes when you do crack it you find out that there was a hidden problem, like no reeding or some other foolish thing. I steer clear of crooks and ACG. It’s just not worth the time and trouble.

griffin6

NOT 65 and NOT DMPL... obviously, the bidding doesn't reflect that grade, but the reality is that you can't accurately grade a mint state coin from a scan and with ACG's "accuracy reputation," you are literally bidding on a pig in a poke!

Saying that "some" ACG coins are accurately graded is the equivalent of saying that "some" people win the lottery...

dorkkarl

i think i know why that 1895-S is in an acg slab. it is actually a 1895 proof w/ an added mintmark. acg dudes miss those all the time.

K S

littlewicher

<< <i>Saying that "some" ACG coins are accurately graded is the equivalent of saying that "some" people win the lottery... >>



I don't concur. EVERY single ACG coin that I've seen has been overgraded by at least 2 or 3 points. I also can't tell you how many ACG coins I've seen that have been cleaned HARSHLY and the label doesn't even say it. That's what makes me so pissed about fricking ACG!!!!!!!!! They're garbage, junk, lowlife scum lickers!!!!!!!!! They're one of the 7 plagues upon this Earth!!!!!!!

I think the ANA should do something about them, instead of just sitting around accepting gifts from them. That's why I don't support the ANA.

Rob0126

I appreciate the vote of confidence walkerman,

we do need more honest people in this world.

As for ACG, I keep hearing nothing but badness about them. I have yet to hear something good about them.

You wonder why the ANA doesn't do anything about this. Does the ANA take bribes?! Maybe; maybe not. I don't know. It would be sad, but I hope they don't.
I don't plan to cause havok or doubt in your minds about the ANA. I personally have the ANA grading guide and find it pretty good. I don't know, maybe they just don't care if ACG grades as if their auto mechanics working on a refrigerator.

Robert

dorkkarl

for a price, acg offers a grading opinoin on coins submitted to them and encapsulates the coin in plastic. like it or not, it's no different than what pcgs or ngc or anacs does. however, you have every right to agree or disagree with acg's or pcgs's or ngc's or anacs's opinions. bottom line is if you grade the coin yourself, you don't have to worry about whose name is on the plastic.

K S

Rob0126

True karl;
Only thing is, most of us don't have that kind of repor to put our name on a slab and call it accurately graded.

Robert