Received Gradings from PCGS What else is new?

Ogden

Broke out an old 1894 Liberty $10.00 gold from an old green MS-62 holder. Thought it might grade at MS-63. Guess what... it came back MS 61. Does PCGS decide on a grade and then grade in one grade lower?
Seems like they look at their coin value reports and realize that certain grades command a higher value and are afraid to give it the higher grade. For instance I also sent in a gorgeous 1941 s Mercury FB which PCGS graded MS 66FB. Value $115.00. MS 67 would have been $450.00. I don't consider myself much of a grader but the coin was flawless and extremely well struck. I also recently sent in two gold coins which were graded XF-45 and XF-40. Comparing them to others I have seen I would have thought they would have been graded at least AU-50. Oh well, maybe I'm "pie in the sky". It does gets discouraging. I wish if it was a borderline call they would occassionally call it in my favor.

Ogden

DHeath

Ogden,

In my limited experience, they do occasionally call it in the submitter's favor (3 of 10 undergrades, 1 of 10 overgrades), but almost never on low-pop or expensive coins. Read Sunnywood's response on the registry forums to 9 to 5. It is as dead-on as anything I have seen written on the subject.

FC57Coins

Ogden:

As I was getting ready to respond to your post I saw DHeath's post and I think he's spot on. It's a lot easier to get whacked back a grade than to gain a grade. In my experience with Frankins, the difference between a grade doesn't necessarily lie in how many dings or nicks it might have, but does the coin have WOW value. It seems to me that when you're dealing with MS64 coins and below, the WOW value deminishes quite rapidly and your chances of gaining a grade go with it. IMHO.

Frank

dakra

Ogden,
I'm pretty new at this as well but I'm just curious why you didn't leave the coins in their original holder and submit it as a regrade, specifying the grade you believe the coin to be? It is my understanding if they do not agree, they will reslab it with the original grade. Just curious...

-Dave

DHeath

Dave,

According to the PCGS guide, for a coin submitted for regrade, one of the three opinions of grade is the one on the original holder. That would mean the only way to make an upgrade would be if both other opinions supported the upgrade (they'd have to overrule the holder). If it is submitted raw, Two of the three grade opinions can determine the final grade. That, IMHO is much more likely to result in an upgrade.

a2labmom

My last 2 submissions have not been too awful bad.

The first one (11 Mercs) panned out like this:
1 real disappointment (a body bag for cleaning)
1 minor disappointment MS64 that I thought was MS65
4 right as I had hoped
5 Better than I hoped

My second one (1 Merc and 1 1894-S Double Eagle) panned out like this:
The merc was body bagged for cleaning
The Double Eagle came back AU-53 and that's what I graded it as.

My experience, so far hasn't been all that bad. Out of 3 submissions, I have had 3 body bags. I'm getting ready to submit 12 more Mercs for grading. I don't expect to get anything back above the grade of about EF-40, but who knows...

IrishMike

You also have this working against you if send it back in the slab to have upgraded, if they upgrade the coin they are in fact admitting to you that they misgraded it in the first place. The odds cannot be much in your favor. If I was convinced a coin would upgrade and I have only owned a few in my life time that I thought would, you might trying sending it slabbed across the street, more likely they might upgrade it, no disincentive not to, since they aren't admitting they graded it incorrectly to begin with.

Ogden

I guess I shouldn't have cracked the coin out of the holder, but I felt that since it was the old green label it surely wouldn't lose a grade. I should have sent it in for a regrade in the original holder! From looking at the PCGS values it doesn't seem to make a big difference between 61 and 62, but a big difference to MS-63.

Thanks all for your input.

Ogden

JJacks

Ogden,

Don't get too frustrated. On another post of yours you say "Either it is MS62 or it is not". That seems like it would be correct, but it really isn't. Grading no matter how technical they try to make it is always subjective. What if the coins "True" grades is MS61.5? One day you got the 61, the other day it got the 62; if you submit again, it may get a 62 again, or could even 63 this time. If grades were clear cut where just about anyone could look at a coin and be 100% correct, there wouldn't be a need for grading services. Remember that we are talking about 3 people looking at the coin who have never seen it or don't remember it from when it was sent in 10 years ago.

Also, with coins like the 41-S Merc, it is definately going to be harder to get the upgrade where the next value goes up tremendously. One reason the value goes up so much in fact is the low populations in these grades. For example, I just checked and the 41-S Merc has a pop over 600 in MS66, but about 100 in 67, so you can bet PCGS doesn't give the 67 grade easily at all for that date.

JJacks

Tonelover

The experiences we've been having at our shop right now is that PCGS is in a definite tight mode right now. Unless you have a clear, lock, stock and barrel upgrade candidate don't hold your breath right now for any pleasant surprises. By the same token and don't take this the wrong way, but if you coins were low end for the grade or you missed something like a little hairline or something, these types of results are typical. They are not giving the benefit of the doubt at the moment.

darktone

Ogden, in liberty gold the value really starts increasing in grades of 63 and higher so it is hard to get a 62 up-graded to a 63. I would like to see a picture of it if you could. mike

JJacks

You also have to remember the risk PCGS is taking if they upgrade a coin. If they graded this coins MS63, then months or even years later, it comes back for a grade review, and they now think it is MS62, they are potentially liable for the price difference, which is apparently quite a bit in this case. That is one reason it is tough to get the "Money" grade from PCGS. They have to be sure of the quality of the coin, certain that if they give it a 63, they won't view it lower in the future.

JJacks

roadrunner

I like the idea of going "across the street." Actually it's the only place I go because I feel comfortable on how the coins will grade. I just got back a submission from NGC on which all 4 coins were in either old PCGS green insert holders or old ANACS holders (black reverse logo). 1 of the PCGS coins went up and this was no surprise as it was a solid 65 coin even by 1989 standards. The ANACS pieces, 62 and 63 bust halves, both went to 64. I made out OK on the bust halves but I also paid well over greysheet 63 money for each of them. Both are very colorful with a great look and should be 64's. All of the coins were cracked out before sending them in. One thing I learned that was no matter how nice those bust halves looked, no one could see past the low grade holders they were residing in. And while some will look at this as a way to bash NGC, I see it as a way of stating that their accuracy is better. Also, many conservatively graded coins on par with the early PCGS/NGC standards still reside in those black (and even gold) logo ANACS holders.

roadrunner

Rob0126

sounds like politics to me.

Robert

TomB

I know this isn't politically correct to state, however, I find it difficult to put much credence into a grading complaint by a submitter who admits that they aren't much of a grader. Am I the only one who thinks this way?

its4real

the apparent inconsistency in the grading by different organizations has led me to believe that the very best grader is the purchaser of the coin. He/She apparently likes it and admires it and therefore will pay a higher grade price for it.

If they THEN decide to get it graded and it comes back lower - it will only sharpen the "grading skills" of the purchaser - or you - or me for that matter.

This is a "self correcting" game - much like golf - if you know what I mean. You want to whine - go ahead but it' your own fault for not being as critical as possible of your own coins - or those you want to acquire. The more mistakes that you make - the more chances you will get :-)

Dog97

You gotta play the game-Crossover or Regrade. Once you crack it all bets are off and anything can happen. When you say "the old green label" that might have something to do with it. There are 3 or 4 different types of old green labels. Depending on which type of old green label it was it could be graded conservatively or generously.

zenny

right there with you, Tom.

braddick

MS62 (pAtato)
MS61 (PaTATO)

six of one, half dozen of another...

Expect ALL your coins to come back PO01 and you'll never be disapointed.

Ogden

I wanted to respond to Tom's comment about my admission of not being a grader so I shouldn't have any complaints. I did have another MS-62 gold liberty which I compared to the one I submitted. and the one submitted for a regrade looked better under a 20x loupe. The fact that I admit that I have not yet learned the skills of grading doesn't mean that I don't try to do my homework and learn, usually by comparing unslabbed coins to slabbed one. Isn't that how everyone learns? I guess I'll have to be more specific in any future posts!

Ogden

darktone

Ogden, don't feel too bad everyone that plays the crackout game will have results like yours sooner or later. I think the 20X loupe is overkill unless you are looking for die varietes and as your grading skills increase you will use your loupe less often. I usually don't use a loupe unless some defect on the coin warrents a further look then I will use a 5X. I see alot of beginners use high magnification to look for marks but overlook obvious signs of cleaning and unnatural surfaces because they are too intent on looking for and counting each mark on a coin. mike

Ogden

Thanks for the reply Mike. Always appreciate your input.

Ogden

Rob0126

dt,
You have a good point their. the thing is though, is that most of us newbees to 'legit' coin grading have to look for those little imperfections. I personally know a little bit about cleaning, and have done a few tests myself so I could recognize it, and for my own indulgence on how good 'Mothers' aluminum rim polish cleans a coin.

I wish that in the future, we will have more consistant, and accurate grading, and do away with 'luster' and 'eye appeal', when it comes to pricing the coins. We need a baseline, so we all don't have to chase our tails about our grading methods.

Robert

darktone

Rob0126- I guess the point I was trying to make is you must take the whole coin into consideration and not get lost looking at microscopic marks. I think being able to tell if the surface is original is the biggest thing for new collectors when grading MS coins. In my opinion luster and eye appeal are the two most important things I look for when grading a coin. I hope I don't sound like I am preaching. mike

danglen

Ogden,


If you want to sharpen your skills as a grader, the first thing you need to do is lose the 20x loupe. The first thing they teach you in ANA grading courses is to use the naked eye first, if you see something that may turn out to be a problem, check it out with something no more powerful than a 3x loupe. It's hard to break the "extra power" habit, but if you can do it you'll come out dollars ahead in the long run.

danglen

P.S. For those of you looking to sharpen your "problem coin" detection skills, ANA will be offering a one week course in Colorado Springs next summer in "Advanced Grading and Detecting Problem Coins". For information on the course, check out www.money.org or call the ANA at 800-367-9723.

roadrunner

I find it interesting Darktone that you do not always use a 5x glass when purchasing coins. I've heard it stated often that professional graders don't always use them. And that may reasonable to do when grading untoned Morgan dollars (big coins with large fields and figures). But how can you do that with 3cs, half dimes dimes, and even quarters? Nice half dimes usually all look like gems until you get the glass on them. In my case I always use the 5x loupe when looking at anything I may purchase. Hairlines, scattered chatter, and minute rubs are things I can't really see without going in close. And these are almost always the final determinant of what the coin is worth to me. While scanning for marks, the surfaces and depth of luster of the coin usually "register" right away also. I do agree though that you can eliminate many coins from possible purchase without a glass. I also agree that at some time while considering a purchase, you should also look at the coin unaided just to see how it looks.

"Every" dealer that has ever bought a coin from me has gone in with the 5x glass to find tiny flaws. (Actually that's not quite true as I sold many of my type coins over the phone during the crazy "sight-unseen" days in 1988-1990) Today though, everyone zooms in that I've dealt with. And if you fail to see hairlines, scratches, hits, hidden clues to AT, etc. when you were buying, you can bet the next guy won't. It may affect what you make or lose on the coin when you decide to sell. IMO, anything I can see without the glass, I can evaluate even better under 5x magnification. To take it a step further I'm confident I could give up the unadided eye look and be limited to strictly a magnified look and be safe. I don't think the reverse is true at all.

roadrunner

RGL

It is my understanding that after a naked eye look, the PCGS graders use a 10x loupe for overall grading, only using a higher power if they spot something suspicious or are looking for a variety, doubled die, RPM, etc. Agreed you can be very tough on what may be a gem if you are using 15x to 20x ...

darktone

roadrunner-I guess you got a point there when looking at those small coins I use a loupe otherwise it hard to even see the date on those 3 cent silvers and yes if I see something that warrents a closer look I will use a loupe as stated earlier. To me it's seems like my first 20 second impression of a coin is usually the same grade I will give it if I spend alot of time looking at it with a loupe. mike

Ogden

I wanted to add that in this same submission I sent in a 1946 Walking Liberty, which was just taken out of a roll. Bought it from Papa Tony on Ebay. It was Beautiful!!!! It was graded AU58 by PCGS. There wasn't a mark on it. I thought surely it would be MS-something. If PCGS graders don't use loops how in the heck could they grade a coin AU that was never out of the original roll it was in. I just don't get it I guess. Once again, the coin had great great eye appeal.

Ogden

Tonelover

<< <i>I wanted to add that in this same submission I sent in a 1946 Walking Liberty, which was just taken out of a roll. Bought it from Papa Tony on Ebay. It was Beautiful!!!! It was graded AU58 by PCGS. There wasn't a mark on it. I thought surely it would be MS-something. If PCGS graders don't use loops how in the heck could they grade a coin AU that was never out of the original roll it was in. I just don't get it I guess. Once again, the coin had great great eye appeal. >>



I don't suppose Papa Tony showed you this original unopened bank wrapped roll did he? Anyone can put together a bunch of sliders and they do, all the time.

Ogden

True, he didn't but I have found him to be the most honorable person I dealt with on Ebay. In fact he sent me a 1941 DD0 to see if I liked it before I decided to buy it. How many sellers would send you a coin without sending money? In fact he also did this with "two" 1952 D/S Lincoln's.

Once again if you read what darktone said, the eye appeal was exceptional. Is this first look the first step in grading? Appears from some of the previous posts that ANA discourages the use of Loupes, or at least until they are needed. I willing accept any advice. Thanks for all who responded. As soon as I get the 46 Walking Liberty back I'll see if I can post a picture for reference.

Ogden

Ogden

Link to purchase of 1946 Liberty

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=1356973008

darktone

link

Ogden- it looks like a very nice coin probably better than most coins graded 60 or 61. If PCGS graded it au58 that's just their opninion your opinion is the one that counts in your collection. mike

gmarguli

It is my understanding that after a naked eye look, the PCGS graders use a 10x loupe for overall grading, only using a higher power if they spot something suspicious or are looking for a variety, doubled die, RPM, etc. Agreed you can be very tough on what may be a gem if you are using 15x to 20x ...

No. The graders use no magnification for the grading of most coins. They ONLY use a glass if they notice something suspicious with the coin. The only exception to this is for small coins (i.e. 3CS) that they will use a glass because the coins are so small. According to Rick the glasses are usually 3X-5X. I believe he said 6X was the highest they have in the grading room.

Rob0126

I thought I read somewheres that some walkers of certain years had not so good strikes that left the head with that not so full strike look. Is this right, or am I thinking of another coin?

Robert