9 to 5 graders wanted - calling all experts

lincolnSence

Day after day I read how PCGS 9 to 5 graders are not as good as our board members. How people collect plastic that these morons have misgraded. In fact, I guess there are collectors who put together whole collections of these misgraded slabs. And get ripped off to boot. I propose that you experts call in and declare that you recognize yourself as at least as good as the pros. Please identify the category you consider yourself to be an expert in. Everyone can then make a list and refer to it when we need it. A fair number of you are making me sick. Its like a little league game. The fans yell at the ump that he can't call a strike from a ball. One day I watched an ump call time out and he proceeded to walk over to the stands where the heckler was seated. He sat down right next to him and yelled loudly, "ok, your right, I can see much better from here, PLAY BALL." I suggest if you won't put your name up for all to see and evaluate, then try to be more constructive in identifying why a coin would be graded the way it comes out. Start a thread that is theory based or oh my goodness, research driven. Pissing on the pro's just doesn't make sence. Sure there are errors. But stand up and be counted. Tell us all that you see hundreds of each date and mintmark. That you have put together a "grading set" that you use as a guide that has been in place for years and years. That you are truly as good as 4 to 5 of these 9 to 5ers by yourself! Otherwise, please rethink about trying to impress us with your babble about how you can tell what a coin really is graded from some of the crappy scans I see daily. Please do not recommend your dealer. Let them put their own name in. ONLY put in your own name. Come on, this thread should break 100 replies in no time!

Fairlaneman

Consistant the Graders are Not. If you want Proof come see me and I will show you in person since you do not believe what you see from crappy scans or pictures. Within the Mercury Dime Series there is No Ryhme or Reason on how they grade the Early Dates (1916 thru 1931) compared to the Later Dates (1934 thru 1945). Hell I thought it was one set of rules for the Series. This is not the case period.

My Name Is:

Ken

Strat

LincolnSence, great analogy between baseball and coin grading/certification. There are many board members here who are experts in their series. One has already replied to your post. They're really worth listening to, and are genuinely interested in numismatics. However, what you're asking is for an academic approach, and I'm not sure you'll get one. Perhaps from this particular forum. But you need to post this thread in the other forum, the U.S. Coin Forum. There you will be flamed, lambasted and criticized. Your umpire will be heavily chastized for his blindness, senility, impotence and probably a few other things as well. And in the end, you'll find no academic approach, no evidence or reasons given, very little objectivity and no admissions of hey blue, I guess you were right, good call. Of course, I really hope I'm wrong. I hope sound arguments will be presented. Perhaps those that can do this will reply. We'll see.

mdwoods

I don't think PCGS can be beat for grading Moderns. Especially high end coins. I do wonder about certain series however, and the Mercury dime is one of them. I guess I don't know what they are looking for on the merc. I have a blast white MS66FB coin that looks to me to be a MS68, and I am counting any little marks that I can see. I have a lot of Moderns in 67,68,69, and even a few 70s. So I have a fair idea what a 68 coin should look like. Still, I think PCGS is consistently the best. Mark

andy007

I agree completely with mdwoods' statement "...PCGS is consistenly the best" but they aren't consistent in grading.

DIMEMAN

Here is an example of a PCGS overgrade and a NGC undergrade, which doesn't happen very often..but.

I personally think they are both 63's with the NGC a better 63. Too many hits on the PCgs 64. I have seen both of these coins in person. The NGC is mine and the PCGS was at a show I saw.

Jon

lincolnSence

I know its still a little early and the "experts" probably don't work on Fridays, but so far no one has declared their equal to the pros status as of yet..............come-on, don't be shy now.

Ken - thanks for the invite. I'm in Washington state so you never know when I might get down to see your collection. I did flip through your photos and I always enjoy being able to do this. It does help to see many pics. I am going to call over to the PCGS graderes and see if I can't guilt one of them into addressing this perplexing situation. I will let you know what I find out.

Strat - I posted this thread on the other board. Lets see what they think there. They can flame away. All I ask is that they sign their name as EXPERT.

Dimeman - Only the obverse views were included. Can we get the reverses? I don't know anything about merc's but in comparison to 64 lincolns, the PC piece looks properly graded. And I thought this was a great shot. If you took the photo, I would like to know what you used to get such a good shot. The NGC shot was not as clear and hard to make a comparison. I hope I'm not insulting you here. Anyway I could tell the PC piece was better than the NGC item even before I opened up the pics - the PC pic was 47KB and NGC was only 45KB for the same coin - have we stumbled on to their secret???????

DIMEMAN

LS,

I just did the obvs. to show the differences in surfaces. The PC is FB and the NGC is not. That was never a question. The color is not right on either coin. The PC pic was done done by the dealer (MGS) the coin is not quite that golden. The NGC is mine and I did not capture the luster, which I have not been able to do on any coin. The size of the pic in no way means anything. It all depends on compression. By changing compression you can vary the size by 10KB plus or minus and can't tell the difference with the naked eye. I was trying to show the difference in surfaces between the two coins. Mine (NGC) has way fewer hits and is 3 points lower. Usually PCGS undergrades Mercs. I have 64's with no hits. I have considered sending them in for regrade, but I am leary after the horror stories about fingerprints and such. I have a 16-D in 62 that should 63 and a 19-D in 64 that should 65 (this was said by Bill D.) and a 31 in 64 that souuld 65. These are all PCGS. And then I see this 23-S in 64 with hits all over the face and am confused. There is not a dime in my whole set as bad as that 23-S in 64. I'm not irate or anything, just confused.

I have seen great coins in all holders (except acg) and bad coins in all holders. I have not bought some coins that were very nice but in NGC just because when you go to sell them most dealers won't give them the same credit as coins in PCGS holders. Plus if you want the coin in your registry set it has to be PCGS. Looks to me like they have us coming and going as the old saying goes.

JMHO, Jon

Fairlaneman

lincoln Sence:

I by no means profess to be a expert when it comes to All Around Grading of Coins but I think I can handle the Mercs. I will admit that I really believe PCGS does a all around fine job when it comes to grading. The only thing that bothers myself some is the obvious descripences from date to date that they make. Heck they take a Fully struck early date with booming luster and no hits or hairlines and throw a 64 or 65 grade on it and then turn around and take a Not fully struck later date with some hits and obvious dipped luster and throw 66 and 67 grades on it. My therory is that the way they grade pertains directly to the Huge Jumps in monatary value the earlier dates take when you get above MS64. To Me this is not right and unfair to the collecting public. I also can show you examples of this within my set and I am sure other Merc people will back this up. I do not know if this type of gradeing happens in other series but I presume it probably does.

Which part of the Evergreen State are you from. I usually go to the Bigger Shows in the Seattle/Tacoma area so maybe we could meet up. I was in Tacoma last weekend for the show that was being held. Will be at the Show at the Dome next month I believe also.

I will say one other thing also. I keep reading on these boards where the PCGS Customer service Just Stinks. Every and I mean Every contact I have had with them has been plesant and quickly handled so personally I do not see where all of the So Called problems lie. Hell no ones Perfect IMO. I think thats a true statement anyway or am I wrong and we do have Many Perfect Board Members that expect Perfection because they themselves are Perfect ?

Ken

dbldie55

I am still waiting for a response to the last three emails I sent to PCGS(it has been weeks).

shylock

You may be refering to my comment in the Blay thread about weighting: "The registry will always be a collection of labels from a service we may trust more than any other, but that's not saying much. I'll take a specialist in a specific series over a 9 to 5 grader any day, and give him the advantage of describing a coin rather than just posting a grade on a label."

My feeling isn't that most IHs are misgraded, but simply that using only the label to judge them is wrong. I'll never pretend to have the frame of reference a 9 to 5er has. But graders aren't there to decide which MS65s are beautiful and transcend their technical points in eye appeal, and which are barely average but technically too strong to grade MS64.

For my series, Indian Heads, I'd nominate a specialist like Rick Snow to make that decision since he sees as many IHs in the course of a year as your typical grader, and more importantly he has to sell them once they've been labeled. As for myself, if anyone wants to fund me I'll put together two short sets of common date IHs in MS65RD whose diverse quality within that grade even a non collector would notice. It wouldn't take an expert to do that. Yet, if they were listed in the registry both these sets would be equals.

tompkins

lincolnSence:
It seems to me you are trying to create a controversy when there really isn't one! I don't think anyone (or at least not most of the board members) is saying PCGS is bad: they are saying PCGS is sometimes inconsistent. But I repeatedly see people say that in spite of their inconsistency, PCGS is better than the other services (some people seem to consider NGC comparable or better at least for certain series).

I certainly do not profess to be an expert, but I can take two slabs of the same series and compare them: I see 69's that are noticeably different with one probably deserving a 68; I see 70's that have noticeable blemishes, which should make them a 69 (but that's a story for a number of other threads); and more often, I think I see discrepancies in the CAM/DCAM ratings, especially in the 65-67 SMS coins.

But, in spite of this, PCGS is the one grading service that I am willing to take a chance and buy a coin sight unseen, based only on the grade. So while they are inconsistent, they are a lot closer than anyone else.

Pete

Sunnywood

Lincoln Sence,

Many of us who specialize in particular series, and have been examining every high-end example of that series which shows up on the bourse floor or at auction for years on end, have a rightful claim to the title of "expert" within that particular series. To be an "expert" at the entire U.S. series, including patterns, colonials, and territorials, is well beyond the reach (even beyond the comprehension) of most of us, including myself. In this respect, we should applaud the folks at PCGS. Perhaps in the ideal world, they would have several dozen 9 to 5 graders, with each one specializing only in certain areas, like proof liberty seated coinage, or mint state gold. Then they might achieve a higher level of consistency within each series that would satisfy the specialists.

I don't often complain about PCGS grading, except when it comes to crossover. I do feel they play politics with crossover submissions. I believe there is a policy to be particularly hard on NGC or other slabs submitted for crossover. If you think about it, it makes perfectly good business sense as a strategy, to refuse to cross all but the most stellar and undergraded NGC coins. It helps foster the often mistaken impression that PCGS is somehow superior to NGC, which I personally find to be hogwash. This leads many collectors to adopt a "PCGS-only" stance, which in turn helps skew the market values of PCGS coins relative to NGC coins. By the way, since you are making the case that PCGS graders should be accorded a higher degree of respect because they are experienced professionals who see hundreds of coins on a 9 to 5 basis, I would like to point out that the same can be said for NGC graders. I don't think there is a better grader in the country than Mark Salzberg. And I have an equal degree of respect for Rick Montgomery. In some of the series that I specialize in and consider myself expert in (for example, mint state shield nickels, mint state Indian head quarter eagles, proof seated dollars, etc) I nonetheless run into coins that I find to be improperly graded, in my (admittedly not always so humble) opinion.

I also wonder about the politics of "making" high-grade coins. I have virtually NEVER scored an upgrade or a supergrade on even the most PQ submissions, while I have been offered newly-made high-grade coins for sale by insiders that were blatantly overgraded by at least one, and more likely two points. I will not name names, because grading is subjective, and my opinion is only that -- an opinion. But I found the experience sufficiently disturbing as to wonder whether the whole game is rigged, and whether I should get out. I got out of the stock market years ago because I decided that game was rigged too. I was well ahead of my time in coming to that conclusion, and I stand by it.

Sunnywood

tradedollarnut

Well put, Sunnywood! I consider myself an expert in my chosen field - trade dollars. I have viewed every slabbed trade dollar at every show I've ever attended and probably seen every high grade MS example that's been on the market in the last decade. I'll take my chances on my grading standards - except on the issue of AT. Really good AT fools me. Fortunately, not many trade dollars are messed with like that.

As far as grading off a scan - you're lucky if you're within 3 points on a non modern MS or PF coin.

Joshua

Sunnywood,

Your response was one of the best responses I have read and I couldn't agree with you more. To answer the point of this thread, I am sure that many of the people on this board are just as good if not better graders at their specialties. Stands to reason if you concentrate on one particular series and view those coins whenever you can then you should become proficient in grading those coins. It would be interesting to find out what a PCGS grader sees on a monthly basis - how many moderns, mercs, morgans, early gold etc that he grades. Now consider what a collector who only collects one series sees in a given month. I think the PCGS graders do a tremendous job considering the volume they have to look at in any given day and knowing that many of these coins are generic run of the mill coins.

In addressing your middle paragraph, the politics that seem to be going on will eventually come to hurt both services. In the last three months I have tried to cross over 35 NGC coins and have not had a single one cross. It has even gotten to the point that I tried to cross five coins at one grade lower and still havn't had single piece cross! And while the PCGS graders are experts in grading coins, I have far more examples of this series to view than they probably grade in one year. But it really doesn't benefit them to cross the other services coins when a related dealer sells only PCGS coins and they run auctions with only PCGS coins.

Back to your final thought, this is the hobby that we persue and we have to play with the rules that are set by the services. But as you so brilliantly state, there are signs in the coin industry very similiar to the stock market in recent years and one needs to be prepared to sit tight or get out if they feel that things won't correct themselves.

Thanks for writing such a good response.

Joshua

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Sunnywood,

I enjoyed reading your response.I believe we are all in the same circumstances of getting our coins into PCGS holders as long as they are going to be worth more or we want to put them into our set registry set.Mark Salzberg and Rick Montgomery are both forces in our hobby/industry.Mark has had experience as a coin dealer where Rick is more astute recognizing doctoring and altering.I personally would say NGC is liberal and PCGS is conservative in their grading.

I have made some big hits having coins regraded as well as having coins crossed.There are psychological advantages of cracking a coin out of the NGC holder and submitting it raw.If you submit the coin in an NGC 66 holder and the first grader differs in the grade,your coin will not cross.If you submit the coin raw and the first grader says 65,the second says 66 and the third says 66,it then goes to the finalizer,if he says 66 then the coin goes in a 66 holder even the first grader says 65.

Major coin shows are good places to submit coins.The PCGS invitational use to be a good venue.Sometimes Saturdays use to be a good day.If you look at awork of art such as sculpture or a painting,you know in two seconds how good it is and how it rates.The same is usually true with coins.

At an ANA in New York in 1997,a dealer had a 1916 d mercury dime in a ms 66 fb holder.Another dealer right behind her table had what appeared to be a twin in a 67 fb holder. I convinced the dealer with the 66 fb to loan me the coin on the basis I would pay a $5,000 premium. Three hours later the coin came back PCGS ms67 fb.I paid the dealer the $5,000 premium and made $29,000 in 15 minutes by selling the coin.And I don't collect mercury dimes!!!

Stewart

tradedollarnut

Don't forget to mention that story the next time someone accuses Legend of being a crack out dealer who sells maxed out coins!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Tradedollarnut - I have never ever heard anyone call Laura a crack-out dealer who sells maxed out coins.And I know that statement is untrue.I will say she admitted to me she can't handle being a sore loser.

stewart

TAP444

And did you report that to the IRS
TIm(IRS AUDITOR AT LARGE)

clackamas

>And did you report that to the IRS
>TIm(IRS AUDITOR AT LARGE)

Did the IRS take the risk?

tradedollarnut

What risk? He took no risk.

clackamas

>66 fb to loan me the coin on the basis I would pay a $5,000 premium.

Sounds like a $5,000 risk to me. C'mon you have to hassle the IRS guy, it's only right.

tradedollarnut

He only paid the premium if the coin went up. He paid the grading fee - that was his only risk. Brilliant on his part - no risk assumed.

TAP444

I am not really an IRS guy,just giving Stewart a hard time(all in fun)
TIm

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Tap444 -I sold the coin to Heritage and was paid by check and deposited the check.So I did pay taxes and declare income.

Tradedollarnut - Do you hold something against me? Are you Laura's partner ? You seem very familiar with every detail

If you feel that not many trade dollars have AT wait until you peruse the Queller collection of dollars coming up.

Stewart

tradedollarnut

No problemo - it seemed a forum member thought you paid a $5,000 premium on the chance the coin might go up. The story as relayed to me was that if the coin went up then you would buy it for $5,000 more than listed price ... so I simply corrected his assumption. If I was mistaken about the details, then I apologize.

Brilliant on his part - no risk assumed was meant as a compliment - why do you take that as holding something against you?


No doubt there are AT trade dollars out there, I've just seen too few to have a good feel for them. I look forward to seeing his collection. Is he selling his 1804?

TAP444

Stewart,
If you find any more mercs like that give me a call
I do collect them
Tim

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Tradedollarnut - It seems like whenever I would walk past Legend's table at a coin show,I get these vibes like what did I do now ? The latest one concerned an 1894 s dime and I'm sure you heard about it.
Yes,Queller is selling his 1804 dollar.What is fascinating about the Quellar collection is that all his coins are raw.Alot of at coins,expertly done amidst some SPECTACULAR gems and lots of condition rareties. Stack's is selling his half dollars this October and the dollars next year

This thread being about 9-5 graderswho try and do their best.Graders will always do their best but are human and will make mistakes even with key coins and there will always be people trying to fool them.

I've even heard of someone buying a coin from Jesse Lipka and getting an upgrade which I thought was impossible!!!!!!

Stewart

boiler78

Stewart- That is not possible! Surely someone is pulling your leg.