PCGS regrades for upgrade...no guarantees, I know

WashqrtrsRme

As a relatively short-time collector of PCGS certified coins (been collecting PCGS exclusively now for about 3 years) I have been happy with most of my PCGS acquisitions. I do feel that on average, PCGS-graded coins surpass the competition for accurate grading and for a better ROI when it comes time to sell them. I also enjoy sending to PCGS what I think are nice, raw coins from time-to-time to see if I can get good grades. For the most part, I have been pretty fortunate with the grades I have received from PCGS, but I too get a "body-bagged" coin back from them once in a while...I guess if I were an expert grader, then I'd be working as one! It sure is nice though when you get a coin back from them in an MS66 or MS67 holder! You can at least feel like you have an idea about how to accurately grade a coin. Hopefully many of you can relate to that pleasing experience.

Now a scenario to present to some of you more experienced PCGS collectors. Recently, I sent my silver Washington quarter set to PCGS for pedigree. I was told that I could at the same time ask to have some of my coins regraded as well, as long as I was willing to "cough up" the $30. fee per coin for this additional service. As I was told by a friend, if the graders felt that the coin had merit for the next higher grade, then these coins, after regrading, would be re-holdered with that next-higher grade assigned to it. At the time of my submission, I wasn't in a (financial) position to have many coins re-graded, so I only asked for 5 regrades. Of the 5, I did receive one upgrade, my 1935-S going from MS66 to MS67. I was very happy with that. I have about another 20 or so MS66 coins that I feel are worth submitting to PCGS for regrade to see if I can hopefully attain a higher grade for them. As we can all attest to, not all coins of the same grade are equal. Obviously, I feel that the ones I wish to have regraded are worthy for consideration to that next higher grade. My question is this: as there are no guarantees (for those of us submitting coins) for any coin being assigned a higher grade, and each coin being based solely on it's own merit, who out there has submitted multiple coins at one time to PCGS for re-grade, and if so, what kind of percentages have you received for coins going to the next higher grade? I know this isn't a simple question to answer in theory, as I know there are no gurantees, as I said, but I'm really just more curious than anything else. I feel that if I can hopefully get even a few coins to upgrade, then it has been worth my investment to do so. At 30 bucks a coin, I will submit the coin for regrade only if I feel it has a real shot at the next higher grade...DUH, right? I'm really just looking to see what kind of luck some of you other collectors have had with regrade submissions. Thanks for your comments and thoughts on this subject.

Tom Schiera

Coinster

Hi Tom,

I was told by PCGS at the ANA Convention that PCGS's crossover rate is only 30%. I submitted four coins at the show for crossover from NGC holders (and these coins were PQ for their grade, IMO) and not one actually crossed. I believe PCGS must keep this crossover rate low to maintain being the preimier third party grader. Slack up on this, and they'll fall in line with NGC. Anyway, good luck on your crossovers. I'd be interested to know your future results.
As far as regrades for upgrades, I think PCGS is pretty much like the other services. Simply a hit and miss scenerio in getting them.

John

WashqrtrsRme

John, thank you for your comments. I was actually referring to regrades of coins already in PCGS holders, with these coins being candidates to upgrade to the next higher grade, while remaining in PCGS holders. Thank you for the info. on the crossover percentage though, that is an interesting topic as well.

Tom

PTVETTER

Most coins sent in for regrades stay the same grade, but some do change. Those that change, more upgrade than down grade from what I have seen

DennisH

Hello Tom!

Of the 21 coins I have sent in for regrade (all of them Morgans), 6 have gone up by one point. Four of those were first-time trys; one had been tried twice before by me; and one had been tried three times before by the dealer (the last time was in 1998).

If you want to add another chapter to the book entitled "How stupid are the upgrade/crossover games?", here's one:

I bought a rare and very PQ Morgan variety in an NGC-50 holder, and then tried to cross it in the holder at PCGS. They refused. I asked what grade they had called it, and they said 45. I tried a second time to cross it in the holder. This time it did... at AU50. As soon as I got the coin back, I sent it in for regrade in the PCGS holder. It came back AU53.

Go figure.

-- Dennis Halladay

TomB

I've sent in eight coins for the re-grade service in the hope of obtaining a higher PCGS grade. Intuitively, the chance of an upgrade will depend heavily on the grade the coin currently has. That is, as the MS grade goes higher, the grade range gets smaller and the tougher it is to punch a coin into the next higher range. I have sent in five quarters for PCGS re-grade and four of these were silver Washingtons graded MS66. For these coins I put what I considered the "weakest" upgrade candidate as the first coin with the thought that if the graders saw this coin and subliminally thought something along the lines of "this is the nicest MS66 there could be..." that I then would have a better shot of getting the next coins to upgrade. On these four MS66 Washingtons I received two upgrades to MS67 and two coins remained in their MS66 holders. The other quarter was not a Washington but it also upgraded. The three remaining coins were Roosevelt dimes that were MS66 and I received one MS67 and two coins remained MS66. So, out of eight tries I have four upgrades.

IrishMike

DennisH, interesting, but I cannot understand that scenario, especially sending it right back and getting it upgraded immediately again. First of all according to all the so called experts on this forum the NGC coin was a XF-40 because and I quote them, "everybody knows that PCGS is one point tougher than NGC". Lordy I hope WSM doesn't see this thread. If I couldn't see the difference between XF45 and AU53 on a Morgan, I shouldn't be grading. Maybe the graders should be required to put one of those numbered paper slips on the slip they return, like clothing manufactures do. Do you suppose they gave it a higher grade because of it's rarity? By the way when you submitted it the first time, what grade did you think it deserved?

mrcommem

When I sent my 50-piece silver commems to be pedigreed I asked for 12 of the 50 coins to be regraded. Of those 12 coins, 3 graded on point higher. Two coins went from MS64 to 65 and one from MS65 to 66.

clackamas

I have played the regrade game as well. Its all statistics, some coins are overgraded some are under graded by any service. I have both from PCGS and in the last 6 months. The jump IMO, basically in the Lincoln cents to 67 is large yet small if that makes sense. To get an upgrade to 67 IMO the coin must truly be under graded. For an older coin to get in a 67 holder it must be a very nice coin. I have quite a few 65's that are under graded, no 66's under graded some 66's overgraded ( 1 coin 2-3 points over) and 1 67 over graded. With the Lincoln series the 66/67 barrier is the toughest. I have only tried to cross 1 NGC coin, an MS67 Lincoln and it did cross. I have tried to cross 8 ANACS coins and all but 1 crossed. But I do not send just "any" coin from another service. You really have to know your coin to have a real shot. Some you can look at and say ANACS got it right, and it will cross. If they are borderline between the lower grade do not send it in.

I do believe that PCGS is overly critical in the last 5 months for coins and BB coins that are legit. As for grading you don't get the extra bump regardless of what Wondercoin says, at least in the Lincoln's. A good coin is duly recognized and a borderline coin is PQ. This is the reason IMO why PCGS coins garner the respect. However a coin is its grade regardless of what PCGS NGC or ANACS says. It can only be its grade and if a PQ coin is supposed to be a low end point above then that is what it IS. With all this said I will be waiting till I hear they are more fair to the true grades of coins before I send in my 300 Early 30's Lincoln's.

wondercoin

"As for grading you don't get the extra bump regardless of what Wondercoin says, at least in the Lincoln's"

Not exactly sure what this refers to, but Lincolns have upgraded for years, just like all other coin series. It has only been this past year that Lincoln grading has really tightened. Who remembers the 1928(s) Lincoln in PCGS-MS65RD that sold for around $10,000 a couple years ago (check sheet on an MS65RD)? That coin may still be the nicest 1928(s) MS66RD Lincoln known today (as it sits in its new PCGS-MS66RD holder). There was plenty of "extra bump" in that coin and I could name many current Pop 1 and 2 Lincolns that had their fair share of "bump" Wondercoin

clackamas

I was referring to your statistical posts that point to more lower grade coins per any grade vs. PQ coins for a grade. Your hypothesis was that there were fewer PQ coins for any grade than LQ (lower quality) for a given grade. Your posts seem to make sense at the time but my experience has show something else, IMO quite the opposite. Certainly its not impossible, even easy to find an example to prove any point about under grading or over grading but my overall perception, at least in the past year, shows me that the opposite is true of your hypothesis. No offense just my opinion. When you talk about POP1/2/3 coins you are talking about coins at grades probably 5 standard deviations from the mean and are statistically insignificant when we are talking in the context of upgrade potential for any random coin.

WashqrtrsRme

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your comments and thought-provoking points of view. I also can share an intertesting story regarding regrading/upgrading of coins. You'll like this one! In 1995, when I was only occasionally buying certified Washington quarters, I used to crack them out of the holders and put them into My Dansco album...dumb, I know. Anyway, in '95 I purchased a PCGS MS65
1935-S Washington quarter from a dealer who I still deal with frequently. I payed $130. bucks for it, that was it. This particular dealer always had many nice, high quality Washingtons, so I knew I would be getting nice material whenever I'd purchase his coins. Ok, so now I got this quarter home, cracked it out of the holder, and stuck it in the album, where it resided for the next five years. Only thing I kept from the slab was the paper insert, which really only meant something to me so that I would know it was a certified coin. I did this with several other coins too, but that's another story. In the year 2000, after many conversations with my dealer friend, he finally talked me into getting my entire set slabbed. I did it as time and mostly money allowed. Many of the coins I now began to get slabbed were coming back mostly in MS66 holders, a few MS65s, so I was real pleased. The 1935-S, which as I mentioned had previously resided in an MS65 holder, came back after grading this time in an MS66 holder! Needless to say, I was quite pleased. To me, this coin was one of the most beautiful examples of a Washington quarter I had ever seen, and I have looked at tons of them...it seemed to have "it all". This coin posessed beautiful, creamy cartwheel luster, mark-free surfaces and really pretty reverse toning. The only mark I was able to detect on this coin was a tiny, tiny scratch above Mr. Washington's upper lip, but it could not be seen with the naked eye. I must have looked at this coin with a loupe a hundred times if I had looked at it once. To my "unprofessional", untrained eye, I could not for the life of me understand why this coin was only an MS66...compared to my other MS66 coins, it was "head and shoulders" above them all, at least I thought so. So this past July, as I had mentioned in my initial thread, I sent my set off to PCGS for pedigree. The 1935-S was the one coin which I got another upgrade on, this time to MS67. Here's a coin that was in an MS65 holder when I bought it, and now it's an MS67! How does a coin as nice as this one start out so far undergraded? I'm not complaining now, as PCGS price guide list this coin at $11,000. in MS67, as pop. 9 coin. I know some of us could probably write a book, but I don't understand the seemingly huge disparity in the grading sometimes...and as we can all relate too, I have a few MS66 coins that should possibly be MS65s. I think it depends on who is grading the coins , and how 'generous" they are feeling that particular day. I too realize that there is a human factor element to grading, and lots of factors in grading and that it is not an exact science. Still, I am left "scratching my head" in wonder sometimes. Can we all not relate to this subject matter at somepoint in out collecting travels? Buy the coin, not the holder!

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Tom

wondercoin

Tom: Great story!

You were very lucky to buy the coin 5 years ago when "no one cared" about Wash quarters. At that time, all things were possible. Try buying such a "PQ" 35(s) quarter today from a dealer, or anyone. Very difficult.

Two point upgrades are not commonplace, HOWEVER, in my opinion, many 2002 slabbed coins may have potential for such a upgrade based upon what I have seen this year.

Wondercoin

WashqrtrsRme

Thanks, Wondercoin. Fortunately for me, I was interested in Washington quarters long before they were popular with collectors. I feel that for me to begin collecting this series now, I'd be hard-pressed to afford (and find!)all the keys in high grades.

If you liked that last story, then here's another one for you that you'll probably like: Also in 1995, I purchased an NCG MS64 1934-D from my same dealer friend. He and I both thought this coin had been under graded. It came out of the same collection as my '35-S...we know because I was there when he purchased the original, raw coins from one collection. They were at one time both kept in the old sulphur-paper albums, so that accounted for the phenomenal toning on both coins. Anyway, after I cracked the '34-D out of the MS64 holder, it resided in my Danso album for the next five years, like my '35-S. So in 2000 I sent the now-raw '34-D into PCGS for grading, hoping it would come back in at least an MS65 holder...it came back in an MS66 holder! Here's a coin that was in an NGC MS64 holder, cracked out, and in only one try, I made it into an PCGS MS66 holder! Those two coins are my 2 best grading stories. needless to say, I've have some good fortune come my way, and have a couple of very high-grade semi-keys for a small investment on my part. I know I couldn't afford to buy them as they are now! Just for your info., I no longer EVER crack a coin out of a holder!

Tom

DennisH

Hello IrishMike!

I can't begin to understand the scenario I experienced, either. But it happened.

I must confess that after I posted this information last night, I dug out my submission invoices and discovered I had this story slightly messed up. It's actually even more ridiculous than I made it sound.

The coin in question -- a 1901 Morgan doubled die reverse -- started out as an NGC-45 (not an AU50 as I had earlier said). When I bought it, I thought it looked like a no-doubt AU... and my guess was an AU53.

The first time I tried to cross it, PCGS said no. I was dumbfounded.

The second time I tried to cross it, PCGS made it a 45.

Within a couple of weeks of getting the coin back in my hands, I sent a group of PCGS coins off for regrading, and I included the newly crossed NGC/PCGS-45 coin in with the batch.

It came back an AU50.

As of this morning, there's more to the story. I recently sent in three PCGS 1901 doubled die reverses for regrading. One of them was the old NGC-45/PCGS-45/PCGS-50 coin. According to the website, that coin is now an AU53.

The other two coins also went up -- an AU50 is now AU53, and an AU53 is now AU55. At three-for-three, I've obviously maxed-out my regrading luck, and should perhaps never try again.

The messages I get from this experience is, if you really believe in a coin, you may not want to give up right away.... and, no-distraction AU50 Morgans with lots of lustre have a decent chance of being AU53.

-- Dennis

MadMarty

I just sent off 12 coins for regrading today (11 in old blue holders and 1 in an old green holder). I'm waiting to see if any of them hit an upgrade. If any upgrade it pays for the bill. I'll keep everyone informed...

supercoin

clackamas, I think you're referring to my post with the population graphs, not wondercoin's. One of these days I'm going to get around to suing wondercoin for imitating my name and retire to Hawaii.

I still stand behind that post, however if you're talking about what happens with specific coins and changing grading standards, that's quite different than general trends.

IrishMike

Great story Dennis.

merz2

I have (2) Proof Lincolns that I feel have a chance at upgrade,but I've been affraid to even try as of late.It isn't just my opinion either,just in case you'all are wondering.There are some other very knowledgeable Lincoln men who've seen them and say try for regrade.I may try sometime in the near future.If I do I'll let everyone know the outcome.