I have had it with PCGS...

mnmcoin

Check out Invoice #85486 and you will know why. They grade <b>two</b> of the cheapest coins accurately and the rest a full point or even two points lower...what the hell is going on. I can not keep going on like this, it's like they don't want my business anymore...we'll you know what they win. Every single coin from line 4 to line 14 was a serious solid 67rd coin with two of the 36Ds being unbelievable and nicer than the 68rds I saw at FUN. I have absolutely no idea what to do with this crap they holdered. For the last two years I have learned to grade this modern stuff from them and just when I start to get it they completely and totally start jerking around. Man am I pissed off, I am completely and totally at a loss. I have absolutely no idea what to do, now. The only thing I can think of is turn allegiance to NGC, but that just means another two years time to learn there coins and there standard and create another market for their coins, how can I afford to do that, I mean come on, who do they think I am. I mean $400 down the drain, on all crap coins now.

Is anybody else so completely outraged and upset and frustrated as I am?!?!

Don't think I will be sleeping any tonight.

morris <><

edited because I gave them too much credit, they only got two right

EVillageProwler

Morris,

I am sorry to hear of your frustration with the grading by PCGS. I too have been frustrated by PCGS and now refuse to do business with them. I find that I am perplexed with far greater frequency and consistency by PCGS' standards than I am with the standards of NGC, ANACS and ICG.

My experiences, however, don't cover all series of U.S. coinage. And, I think all services will frustrate from time to time. It is unclear to me if this frustration is a regular occurrence or if this is just the first time. Finally -- and I mean no insult -- you should get a second opinion on those grades from someone whose opinion you highly respect. I say this because most of us tend to biased when assessing our own coins.

For my part, I don't care too much what grades I get back from the services. I'm a pure collector at heart, and seldom enjoy parting even with my dups. I think this is what allows me to brush off much of the frsutrations...

Regards,

EVP

Placid

GAT

Welcome to the sea of misery. My last submission was my last and I mean it. 4 Morgans came back a point lower then their actual grades. A stong PL was just graded MS and the one that really POs me. I cracked an ANACS CC Morgan MS64 that has strong claims to MS65 and it was BBed claiming altered surfaces, which is so much BS I send it back to ANACS and it's back where it started. I am finished playing their game and giving away $s..

JJacks

What's funny is that if everyone is complaining how tough PCGS is, buyers will start paying even more for PCGS graded high end coins, thus increasing the demand to send coins in! PCGS is certainly the toughest out there, but I haven't been disappoined in buying any PCGS coins and that is their strategy I guess. I know we all want consistant grading however, and that seems to be tough to come by (with anyone).

JJacks

GAT

The coin they BBed was a DMPL CC claiming altered surfaces. I understand from others that PCGS is holding down the Pops on DMPLs.

DanC

Help the noob out guys... "DMPL" ?

JJacks

Dan,

It stands for Deep Mirror Prooflike on Morgan Dollars. Coins that have a strong Proof look with good mirrors. Tough coins hi high grades, often the marks can show easier on these coins.

Others can tell you more details.

JJacks

gemseeker

DMPL is an attribute to coin surfaces that allow a mirror like reflection to be shown when held close to the coin. I am not certain of the actual requirements to be DMPL, but it is something like being able to see an image from 6 inches away. Again, it could be up to a person's opinion on that.

Sorry to hear about the tough grading that you got on your coins. I haven't submitted any coins to be slabbed and have been very hesitant to do so. I just ordered some Intercept Shield holders for my more expensive coins and may just store them in that rather than slabs. I am sure there are others who have experienced the same frustration as you have. I think I will delay that experience until I retire.

gmarguli

What's funny is that if everyone is complaining how tough PCGS is, buyers will start paying even more for PCGS graded high end coins, thus increasing the demand to send coins in!

Wrong. PCGS grades MS66 coins as MS65. People get near MS66 prices for PCGS MS65 coins and they point to NGC MS65 coins that don't bring this premium. The dolts them chant how much more PCGS coins bring. They don't realize that they aren't getting more for their money. All they are getting is a mixture of PCGS coins on the market. Some MS65 coins are really MS65 and others are MS66.

lordmarcovan

This is why I buy my PCGS coins already in plastic. If I need to submit something, I send it to ANACS. (Before you laugh me off the forums I should explain that I deal mostly in non-US coins, and ANACS is more respected in world coins than PCGS, generally).

As to the consistency of PCGS grading, I would like to propose a (hypothetical) scientific experiment. Let's take a perfect $20 Saint-Gaudens and hit Liberty in the legs a few times with an icepick. Not seriously, mind you- certainly not enough for a bodybag. What I am suggesting is that we duplicate exactly the marks on the multimillion-dollar King Farouk 1933 double eagle, on our coin. Then we send it off to PCGS. What did they give the '33 double eagle? MS65? OK. We have hypothetically reproduced that coin exactly, except for the date. Ours is a common date coin from the same era.

What do you suppose the odds are that PCGS will give our common date coin the same MS65 grade, with those marks? I would be willing to bet a Saint that the submitted Saint would not get 65 with those marks. In fact, I'd say 62 would be closer to the truth, if that. All the grumbling about PCGS's supposed favoritism pretty much went past me until I saw that coin. Then I started to think, "...maybe the Emperor has no clothes".

It's all hot air, anyway. One man's 66 will always be another man's 65, regardless of what kind of plastic it's in. Why go with PCGS at all? Well, perception. PCGS coins are perceived as more accurately graded, and therefore command a premium in the marketplace. If that perception shifts, so might public opinion. If they consistently lowball people's coins, it can get them a reputation for strictness. But that can backfire in lost customers. Perception counts, but that's all it is... perception.

I used to submit less-expensive stuff to PCI, but they so consistently lowballed my stuff that I quit using them. I later crossed those same coins to NGC at higher grades. I mean, they were lowballing AU58-MS60 stuff to EF45. I had enough of that. But did their "tightening" standards help them any? I doubt it. They were still inconsistent. I had another, cleaned coin that they green-labeled without noting it as a problem piece.

jtryka

I feel your pain Morris. As I recall, this isn't the first case of shifting standards at PCGS. In fact, I sort of look at them like the Fed, in some cases they loosen, and in other cases they tighten. In earlier days, they graded a lot tighter, which is why older slabs often bring a premium, then they loosened up until they were at the point they were a few years ago, and then they started to tighten again. Unfortunately, now there is no easy way to tell the difference except by actually looking at the coin itself to determine if it was accurately graded or undergraded. So now we will see many newer collectors getting burned by paying premiums for the PCGS 65s that are not really 66s, but only 65s, and you will see the smarter collectors grading for themselves and cherry picking the 66s in the 65 slabs. In all, PCGS is accomplishing the direct opposite of what they are supposed to be shooting for. They should be striving for accuracy and consistency in an effort to make the coin market more transparent (that is what we pay them for), instead, they are going to become just one other way for dishonest folks to take advantage of the unsuspecting collector. And lets not even think about what this does to pricing data like the grey sheet, when some 65s get 66 money while others only get 65 money, throw that into the mix and it seems like PCGS price inflation may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

As for me, I am done with them for a while, and I may try NGC to see what they are like.

dragon

mnmcoin,

One of the biggest problems of extreme inconsistency at PCGS IMO is due to the different graders with vastly different individual standards.

I was told that a grader or grading team works at PCGS for several weeks or months at a time, and then a different shift comes in. I think these various people grade vastly differently. The reason I say this is because they appear to be extremely tough for a period, and then loosen up considerably a few weeks or months later it seems.

I have noticed via my own submissions that a whole batch of coins can come back 1 to 2 points lower than they should, and then if resubmitted 2 or 3 months later, many will go up a point and some even 2 points in grade.

So I concluded that it's just different people at PCGS looking at the coins with very different personal grading standards. I say this because I refuse to believe the popular opinion that PCGS has resorted to doing this intentionally to encourage resubmissions (but I suppose it's possible).

As an example, I have had 2 different Morgan dollars that were each assigned 4 different grades at PCGS within a 1 yr. time frame, c'mon now, that's just plain rediculous.

I have about a dozen really nice Morgan dollars there right now and I have no clue what "mode" PCGS is in right now.

I can understand just how frustrated and upset you are, and don't know what to say except it seems to be happening to everyone, not just you.

Dragon

monsterman

morris

i too feel your pain.............i used to be a loyal pcgs guy....but i have seen way too many obvious blown grades.....i dont think they were mistakes......it was obvoius to me that they had an agenda.......MAKE EVERYONE PAY MUTIPLE SUBMISSION FEES BEFORE THEY PUT THE RIGHT GRADE ON IT.....i quit them in 99 and happy for it....richer too!!!)

clackamas

I recently purchased part of a hoard of early 30's original rolls of Lincoln's and wanted to do a bulk submission because I figure there are quite a few 67's in the group. I will not send them in right now because I know they are going to beat them up and I have -0- chance on getting a 68 on a coin that if it was dated 2002 would be a 68. I don't want tough, I don't want lax, I want accurate grading. I know what the grades are and PCGS job is to state THE grade not their grade.

wallstreetman

Looks to me like you give a 67 no respect! PCGS is not going to be wrong that many times! Sorry, but you better go back to the drawing board, or quit being so bias with your own coins!

mrpaseo

I'm no grading expert, and I have done only one submission (The free bees- ). The thing was, the coins I sent were not mine.

When I practiced grading the coins that were notmine, I graded the coins lower than what the owner of the coins thought.

The point, people are biased to their own coins.

TRY THIS When you go out buying PCGS coins, note the condition of the coin when you are buying. Meaning, when the dealer has 6 of the same coin, same grade, look threw them, figure out if the coins (In your opinion) are graded accuratly. This way, they are not your coin and you give an unbiased opinion on the grade. One thing you must keep in mind. These must be coins that you are not going to buy, just a coin that you can accuratly grade.

In doing so, you will realize that on average (And we had a thread on this before) you will see PCGS acuratly graded. Doing it in this mannor, you will not be the owner hoping for the best grade, or a buyer hoping for an undergrade (Lower price for an undergraded coin).

Let me know what you think about this theory,
Ray

andy007

I hear the exact same thing everytime my local dealer's submission returns from PCGS. He complains and complains that this is the last time I ever submit to them, and I'm not trying to state that is what you are doing Morris because he mainly deals with Morgans, Peace, Lincolns, and 50's and 60's proofs. But I examine all of the coins that he gets back and agree on 95% of the time. Out of a stereotypical box of 20 coins back, one to two were undergraded, one to two were generous, and the rest were properly graded. Every coin with the exception of three I have always received the grade I put down as it would return, with the exceptions being a early Lincoln and Indian(both bagged AT) and I know how hard PCGS is on toned copper, the other being a 1935 Washington that came back MS63(thought was a lock 65) but can now see that PCGS graded it a 63 because of a weak strike. Just my experience, I know plenty of dealers here who submit tons and tons of more coins, and many of their gripes are justified, but it does wonders for the prices of PCGS coins doesn't it?

DHeath

Smart post Andy, and I agree. IMHO, patience is the thing you appreciate in the guy behind you and hate in the guy in front of you. If you're the submitter, PCGS is way too tough, and if you're the buyer, PCGS has it just right. I also agree with the 95% calculation. I think they err on the side of caution, and undergrade more frequently than overgrade (2/1). I also agree with EVP and Greg. The only way to buy is with a look or a return policy. A PCGS 65 may be a 66, but will usually command 66 money anyway. I don't mind buying for 66 money, but I want a 66 coin.

MadMarty

I know what your talking about Morris. I'm only sending in Modern Proofs, but if I send in a let's say a 77 IKE Proof, I'll get 69DCAMs but try getting a 69DCAM with a 60 LD Cent or a 71 Kennedy. If the prices are high they want to keep the pops low. Dan and I went into a slight bidding war over a 71 Proof Set. The half really looked nice. I figured it was my 69DCAM for sure. Hit a 69CAM. I think Lord M. is right. For the high end coins your just going to have to buy the slab...

lordmarcovan

<< <i>The point, people are biased to their own coins. >>



That is a good point, especially where differences of opinion of 2 points or less exist. I read somewhere, I believe in a Scott Travers book, that the average bias a collector unwittingly places on his own coins is 1.5 points. So this could explain a little.

It does not explain differences of 10-15 points on a circulated coin, which is the reason I stated above for quitting PCI, no matter how cheap they are. I cannot accuse PCGS of such a wide gap, however. Although it stung a little when the $10 Liberty I broke out of an ANACS MS63 holder came back as a PCGS MS61, I took my medicine. Especially as I had broken it out of the ANACS holder to give it a bath- it was grungy-looking, and looks better as a PCGS 61 than it did as an ANACS 63. The value was almost halved though, when it dropped below 63. At least I was able to "curate" the coin and improve its appearance a little without getting a bodybag. (I used light applications of diluted Jeweluster, applied to the dirty areas with a Q-tip, and rinsed it off quickly.)

darktone

lordmarcovan-and I mean no disrespect but if you crack out a ANACS 63 and clean it then submit it to PCGS and you get it graded a 61 you have nobody to blame but yourself( that's a chance you take when dipping ). Now if you just cracked the coin out and submitted it to PCGS and then got a 61 that's a different story. mike

lordmarcovan

Oh, I knew the risks. Like I said, I'll take my medicine there. No real regrets here, in the long run. I lost some investment, sure, but from a pure collecting standpoint, all money aside, I came out with a much nicer coin, in terms of eye appeal. Sometimes I am willing to sacrifice a little technical grade in favor of eye appeal. It all goes back to focusing on the coin and not the holder. In that case, even though the drop in value was significant, I gained valuable experience, and I would much rather have an attractive MS61 than an ugly MS63. In the future I would not attempt something like this on a coin that doubles its value between MS62 and MS63, but in cases where the spread is not so wide, I would do so again, unrepentantly.

darktone

lordmarcovan- maybe try submitting it again. Because as you say there is a big drop in prices from a 63 down to a 62 or lower. I know everone say's if you like a coin the way it is why have it slabbed or try for a higher grade? but when a coin doubles in value for a one point grade difference you almost have to get it graded if selling or just for peace of mind about the market value if you are keeping it.
mike

perfectstrike

Lincoln standards have definitely been notched upward in the last 6-12 months. My last test submission shows that copper color is worth at least one grade point and sometimes two with PCGS. That's a significant change. Most of my darker Lincolns are coming back a full grade point lower than I expect. Eye appeal has become much more important.

I've been using halogen light in a dark room for all my new Lincoln submissions, the flaws just jump out. That's how I'm compensating for the change. I'm also saving some of the latest submissions and I'll be sending them back, at some future time.

perfectstrike

lordmarcovan

Mike- another reason I took my lumps with PCGS over that $10 Lib was that I needed it for a Registry set, and obvously could not register it in an ANACS holder (or I might have left it alone). In fact, I still have it registered, though the rest of my gold type set is now being upgraded from MS62 to MS63. I will probably upgrade it to one that is already in PCGS MS63 plastic, and then I might try to cross that one back to ANACS (I kept the original insert somewhere), or maybe submit it in the slab to NGC and see if they will upgrade it. I think it deserved a 62 at least, though the rise in price from 61 to 62 is not as significant as the rise from 62 to 63. Also, as has been pointed out to me on this forum in the past, a PCGS MS61 and an ANACS MS63 might trade for roughly the same amount in the marketplace, anyway.

clackamas

There is such a fine line between a 66RD and 67RD lincoln. Basically when you see an early date 67RD Lincoln there is no doubt why its a 67 and often you wonder why its not a 68. Basically a 68RD is impossible. When you see a 66RD its hard to see why its not a 67 but then you see a couple of things, this is a 66RD. When you see a 65 RD vs a 66RD you can see that there are few marks but they are just a little bigger on the 65 or there is one on the face. IMO and for the most part PCGS's you can not have but just the slightest contact on the face of lincoln to make 66RD and for the most part no contact on the face is allowed. The shoulder may have marks but they are not big and usually the face is perfect. No carbon or splotchy anything for a 66RD. My experience recently with Lincoln's is that what was once a borderline 66 will come back a 65 all the time. "Shoe in" 67's are comming back 66 unless there is "no doubt" its a 67 and then you will sometimes get the grade or on a resubmit. I once read a book on Gold panning and I think this quote is also true for PCGS grading, at least right now. "If you think its gold its not. You know its genuine gold the moment you see it."

darktone

lordmarcovan- I have actually had better luck up-grading ANACS gold to PCGS. I have had several up-grade of course I cracked them out before they were submitted to PCGS. I just sent a $10 liberty liberty to NGC that I thought would be graded AU58 because of some severe hits(bordering on damage) and they gave it a 62. Let me know how it turns out if you submit it again. mike

TRADERBOBZ

i am usaully the mushroom , i just sit in the corner and never say much WELL not really, but hear me out on this,and slam me if you want.
PCGS is big business,if they kick enough coins out in bags,grade on a tough scale,and are just hard to get a high end low pop coin out of them! do you all understand why this is ???
let me tell you, if the above is common and i think it is(m.h.o)
what do you think it does to the price of coins allready slabbed in low population status.
what do you think it does for allready slabbed DMPL,s
what do you think it does to the value of all these coins including high grades in any series ms-66 or better????
its business my freinds,its profit,its what pays for this message board and so on .
what do you guys think? do you think im a a$$ for saying it?

TRADERBOBZ

i personally think they are doing a good job, have you seen the stock or followed it over the last 3 to 4 years? i have and they are doing everything right some people here should invest in PCGS stock and quite playing the grading (guessing) game .
greg do you feel me???

presleyh

i dont know how many graders they have. i dont know how they learn to grade. i dont know how many coins each grader looks at every hour. what i do know is amidst these and many other variables, i have slabbed coins that are equal in every perceptable way with different grades on them. i have a dcam that probably isnt and i have a cam that should be a dcam. maybe if the graders signed the invoices someone could actually build a statistically sound data base from which to improve the grading process. if one guy averages 20% more dcams per week or that many less a bell would go off somewhere. i think they call that quality assurance.

leothelyon

Morris,

Aside from your troubles. I find it odd from a number of recent topics where some are claiming PCGS is to
lose some profit over the next two years. And another where NGC has their registry updated now and it has drawn some positive praise. And the many complaints with PCGS grading. My point; is the wind shifting over to NGC? Did the big execs of PCGS and NGC have a recent get together to weigh the investor's shares and profits to see if PCGS can stay afloat while NGC has it's fun for awhile. The money lies right here in the PCGS registries and the only way to get everyone to spend more money is to get many of you registrants to jump over to NGC and vice-versa.

Before you'all begin to laugh me out of these forums, I already realize that this may sound like some of the biggest BS you have ever heard but is this scenario possible? Could it be happening now?

Leo

gmarguli

presleyh, supposedly the computers track the percentage of grades that match the final grades. I've heard the number is around 75%-85% for most graders.

monsterman

trade

>>>>>>some people here should invest in PCGS stock>>>>>

i have...i shorted at 6 1/4.......and covered at 1 1/4....it was nice...only 19,400 shares but what the hey

>>>>>>and quite playing the grading (guessing) game .
greg do you feel me???>>>

me no thinkee you get it........i am sure you go out to watch your kids lose every football game.......basketball game ...or spelling bee ..or what ever so they can be ranked last

incase you didnt know the services are just ranking coins....thats right.....ranking them......the best out there today were the best out there ( for the most part ) 50 years ago...they are the same coins....the 1st commem ever made was a monster coin when it was made in 1892...and over the last 110 years it has turned blue red and green....it was the best there ever was back then back then .....and it still is today ...which is noted by the grade.....and if there ever is a pr 69 graded....this will be it

look here

http://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/enews/

my point is ...with grading there is no more well this is the best or that is.....its on the holder ( while not a perfect system ...its close as its gonna get ).....the value comes from people wanting " the best they can afford"....thus when the demand gos up so does the price...and visa versa


so if you dont want to be ranked and you want some pretty coin go buy some and paint them and insert them into capital plastic holders

as for me i`ll keep playing the game....in order to keep the coins i own where ever i feel they should be with in the aforementioned ranking system.....if i own what i think is the best...and an inferior one gets into a higher graded holder...then i`ll play

YOU SEE I TRIED NOT DOING JUST WHAT YOU SAID ....I FIGURED THESE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT...THEY ARE NOT BLIND...THEY ARE INFORMED.....SO WHEN I SOLD MY DOLLAR SET I LEFT OVER 250,000 IN UPGRADES ON THE TABLE....YOU SEE I FIGURED THE BUYERS WOULD SEE THE DEEP DEEP QUALITY....WELL THEY ONLY SAW PART OF IT.....HERE A QUICK 100,000 IN 3 COINS OUT OF THE 35 OR SO THAT HAVE BEEN UPGRADED SO FAR...AND MORE TO COME

91-P...NOW A POP 1 ....66...SOLD AT 7000....NOW WORTH 35,000

92-0 NOW A 66 ...SOLD AT 7000....NOW WORTH 35000

84-S.....OUCH I THOUGHT IT WOULD UPGRADE 2 GRADES BUT ONLY 1 GRADE SO FAR

so you see i thought the collectors would see it...but i was wrong.....there is a lot of learning that has to be done first...and its going to take years.....yeah it cost me 250,000......

so mike casper ( who is a good friend of mine) and a few smart guys put one over on everyone.....and i was the big loser...everyone else ( you included just lost oppotunity ).....but to quote mr selinski in the movie tommy boy......"you put one over on me.....you better savor the moment...because it wont happen again"

NEVER AGAIN WILL I EVER OVER-ESTIMATE OTHERS KNOWLEDGE....IT ALREADY COST ME 250,000 AND IT WONT HAPPEN AGAIN

so thanks .......i`ll play the game.....and put my coins where they shouild be.....so they can be placed in the " ranking system " that there apparently is

ttyl
gregg

dragon

monsterman,

Yes, you are correct, it's a big game alright. The whole upgrade game is a big joke IMO and a huge detriment to the hobby overall. So you have a nice MS65 better date dollar worth $10K for example, then you play the PCGS resubmit lottery and it's now a 66 worth $40K, who's kidding who???? It's like 20 years ago when a dealer would buy a $900.00 coin,,,,get a quick bourse floor letter from Walter Breen saying it could be a BMP, and sells it 20 minutes later for $18000.00

Same BS, different year, and all because a bunch of "graders" in Newport Beach change their opinion of the coin.

I once owned a killer 1878 Rev. of '79 dollar in PCGS MS65, a very high end 65, it sells to George Bodway and several months later it's in a 65PL holder, then I saw the same coin several months ago on Ebay in a PCGS 66PL holder....and at nearly 5 times the price, it's all a big joke. So a nice semi-PL high end 65 is now a $39000.00 coin cause it's in a piece of plastic that says MS66PL.

How much talent does it take for individuals like Mr. Casper to walk his coins through PCGS over and over and over and over and over until he eventually catches them on a good day and gets his upgrade, and now the coin is "worth" double or triple or more?? Would you want to buy that coin now? I have seen him advertise on Ebay over and over several coins that I used to own, that are now 1 or 2 grades higher, and still described as PQ! Same game as in the 70s, now we have PCGS though!

I have seen many of the world famous dollars get bumped over time,,,,look at the 84-S, was a 67, now a 68,,,,,look at the 96-S, was a 68, now a 69,,,,look at the 01-P, was a 64, now a 65, etc, etc. The coins haven't changed, just the holders and the perceived value.

So what you have now is a relatively small group of wealthy individuals who buy expensive dollars, get them bumped, and pass them to the next wealthy collector or speculator. Didn't this whole scenario happen over and over in the 60s and 70s when dealers would sell you their sliders as Gem BUs,,,,,,except then they didn't have the "respectability" of PCGS to hide behind.

I think the crackout and upgrade game has greatly affected this hobby in a bad way, as each year, the overall quality of certified coins gets worse and worse as more coins continue to get "maxxed out" and are now overgraded and overpriced.

I'm not really sure why you feel you left $250000.00 on the table, ass most of your dollars were either accurately graded or very nice for the grade IMO and sold for strong prices in most cases commensurate with their quality. Just because the totally inconsistent "grading gods" in Newport Beach change their opinion of them, does that really mean they're now worth another 1/4 mil,,,,,or just that this hobby is so out of whack, its rediculous?

Dragon

Hellion

I saw several auctions today on E-bay (either Peace $'s or Mercury dimes) where the guy was selling PCGS stuff with green labeled slabs. He was yakking on about how people like the green slabs better because of their potential for getting upgraded into a new and improved PCGS blue slab.

Maybe PCGS wants to put an end to this type of "rumor" and is therefore being more strict with their standards. Then again, maybe their graders don't know their butts from holes in the ground.

For example, I sent in an '81-O Morgan that was a MS65 (approx. $1200). The 3 dealers at my local shop all agreed; one even said it had a shot at MS66 (approx $12,000 !!). So, we sent it off to PCGS. You guessed it, it came back body bagged (cleaned). What's so puzzling is that I inherited the coin from my uncle, who died in 1973. It sat in a safe deposit box until 2 years ago. I didn't clean it and I know he didn't clean it, the thing has cool cartwheel luster and light gold toning.

Anyway, it's now in an ANACS slab graded MS65. I'm thinking about sending it to NGC to give it a little more respectability, but really don't plan on selling it unless it does come back as a MS66.

I really think that a lot of what you guys are talking about is due to the Blue Slabs vs. Green Slabs controversy, and that PCGS is trying to protect their reputation by not upgrading as much, by not giving the grades you think you deserve, and by putting fingerprints and french fry grease on your coins.

That's just my opinion; I might be wrong.........

ANACONDA

I have been very, very happy buying and selling coins and currency that are already in the holders. I concentrate on pieces in PCGS, NGC and CGA holders, however I have purchased and sold pieces in holders made by ANACS, ICG and CGC.

Let everyone else play the submit and crackout/resubmit game, they can have the joy and the grief. For me, I will go with just the joy which is in buying, owning and selling truly rare and superb coins.

The holder game is not for me and it didn't take me very long to figure that out. I am a gambler but not when the rules of the game are not ascertainable.

adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on ebay)

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

MORRIS - SEEK AND YE SHALL FIND

tHESE 1936 D'S were evidently the coins you were talking to me about when you asked me what I thought they were worth in a 68 red holder

You saw what you wanted to see.......money.....dollars

You know a 68red with a pop 1 can bring 100 times the price of a 67 red

The only occurance that happened was PCGS graders don't have the same wish list as you

If you seek a 68 red,the coin will become a 68 red with
your imagination

Don"t fret, YOU CAN ALWAYS GET SYMPATHY ON THE MESSAGE BOARDS

Stewart

CalGold

Why are you guys having your coins graded? Are you selling them or trying to get them into the registry? If you own raw coins and intend to keep them, why not just call them what ever grade you think fits, and use the grading fee money you just saved to buy more coins?

stujoe

<< <i> I think the crackout and upgrade game has greatly affected this hobby in a bad way, as each year, the overall quality of certified coins gets worse and worse as more coins continue to get "maxxed out" and are now overgraded and overpriced. >>



That is the Peter Principle as applied to slabbed coins.


Peter Principle:
In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence.

presleyh

I think it is really funny that there is such a wide spread difference of opinion when it comes to slabbing coins. It is obvious to me that grading a coin can increase the value to the coin market by a hundred fold. When someone gets on here and says "buy the coin and not the plastic" i think they are collectors. Collectors dont pay the bills. DEALERS pay the bills. You dont believe that? You can put together whole sets of coins raw from ebay for little more than face value. Even if the seller hawks them as ms 66 or 67. Yep they are cheap and you can COLLECT the whole set. But when you sell them they will be worth about what you paid, so collect all you want without the plastic. Now put them in plastic, spend 30 to 50 bucks on grading and postage and any dealer will look at the coin in a whole different light. If it is in plastic at ms67 by pcgs now only a dealer can afford to buy it. Oh sure it takes an end used somewhere to drive the market for the dealer, but without the plastic getting the big bucks is a whole lot harder. So do you want to simply collect coins or do you want to buy and sell coins. The difference is the plastic.

gemseeker

The only way to end the whole controversy on grading is to make all coins worth face value, no exceptions. That would destroy any seller's and buyer's market for rare coins as well remove the variances that precious metals command. In the scientific field, you establish discrete measures of standards that don't change. When you introduce subjective influences to those standards, that will cause those standards to be in doubt and then you have to throw them out the window.

But of course if that happened, a lot of people (as well as monetary systems) would be in deep (expletive deleted).

dragon

gemseeker,

I don't think the current owner of the King of Siam Proof Set would like your idea

Dragon

Ogden

I agree, they even low ball the coins they previously graded. Sent in a 1894 $10.00 Gold Liberty which I broke out of a old green MS-62 holder and they graded it MS-61. Thought it should upgrade to MS-63, but what do I know?... Obviously they don't know either. Either it's a 62 or it's not. What a bunch of horse manure.

Ogden