The reality of "creating" valuable coins......

presleyh

Ok, here is a tough one. Is it possible to enhance the value of coins on a regular basis by submitting readily available raw coins to pcgs and resale such coins for profit? Call it business or greed, numismatics aside. Or can you at least make the hobby pay for itself?

supercoin

Nothing greedy about it, you're providing a service of finding exceptional overlooked coins and bringing them to the marketplace.

It certainly can be done, but I think you'll find that you earn every penny.

FC57Coins

I don't know that you're "creating" valuable coins, as much as uncovering perhaps a rarity that might be worth something to someone down the road. If you hawk new commemoratives in MS68 or above as "unheard" of rearities, well - there I think you're "creating" something that's really not - and I say this because the quality of modern commemoratives is extremely high. If on the other hand you find an high grade modern circulation coin, and in the process realize that hey - there aren't a whole lot of these because of the condition of circulating coins isn't all that great, there you might have a different scenario, though it could also be that you, or those who collect, haven't really taken a good look at what's out there. The fun thing about coin collecting is that coins are worth what you or someone else is willing to pay for it. If you just HAVE to have an MS68 Ohio quarter and you are willing to chunk out $750 for it - well more power to you. Only time will tell whether you made a good investment or not.

Frank

Dog97

I don't really understand your question but it is tough to enhance the value of coins by submitting readily available raw coins to pcgs and resale such coins for profit.
If they are readily available nobody will pay a prem for them.

presleyh

dog, not so! there are tons of raw coins out there that are selling for little more than face value. but once slabbed as an ms 66 they go for $150.00. right or wrong that is reality. my question is how tough is it to do that on a regular basis.

presleyh

i bought a 77 proof set for 7.00. i sent off the kennedy and the ike. the kennedy came back pr69 dcam, the ike a pr68 dcam. the two coins will go for about $50 to $60 on ebay. so they werent worth much as a proof set, but after grading and all fees to sell you could about double your initial costs. That is not exactly a home run, but if the ike had been a 69dcam the return would have been a triple.

gmarguli

I think you're missing something here. By adding the slab you are also adding features to the coin. It's marketing, insurance, salability, etc. You're also opening up that coin to a wider market (those that can't grade or don't trust their grading enough to purchase the coin raw.

The coins aren't "readily" available. If they were so available for face value and putting them in a slab made them worth $150 then everyone would be doing it.

You're paying for a price for the time and effort of finding these coins as well as expertise.

Take a real world example. I got a coin for face value and put it in a $10 slab. Add in the postage and flip and we'll call it $11 into the coin. The coin sells for $1000. Seems like a great profit. No one ever wants to figure in the 50+ hours that I spent looking thru rolls to find that one super gem. That works out to under $20 an hour for my time. $20/hour pretty much sucks, but people will point to the $1000 selling price of a so-called "common" coin and say people are insane.

JJacks

Dog is correct. For example, clad Ikes in MS are readily available, but they need to be MS66 to sell for $150, and 99+% of them that you will find for sale not only aren't MS66, but most aren't even 65. This is also the case for other raw coins. Sure they are easy to find in "Choice BU", but getting PCGS to grade them at the level where they become valuable is another story altogether.

JJacks

wondercoin

"No one ever wants to figure in the 50+ hours that I spent looking thru rolls to find that one super gem. That works out to under $20 an hour for my time. $20/hour pretty much sucks, but people will point to the $1000 selling price of a so-called "common" coin and say people are insane. "

Greg: Totally agreed! I have said for years that in my opinion there is a "labour value" to all coins, expecially mint state moderns. And, keep in mind if you didn't find that (1) $1000 coin, you were working for $0/hour for the week.

Labour can "produce" valuable coins (better word than "create").Wondercoin.

pmh1nic

The labor issue, depending on how you value your time, can be a major consideration. The cost involved is not just the cost of the mint set but the time to search through mint sets to find one with the potential of grading high enough to make it worth your while to pay the grading fees. If you value your time at $25.00/hour and it takes two hours of going through mint sets to find those worthwhile coins (just throwing around some numbers) the real cost is the cost of the mint set plus your time plus the grading fees hoping the coin makes the grade.

DHeath

Presley,

Greg has it exactly right. I made most of my collection, and what Greg left out was the cost of having access to enough raw material to find the gems you seek. If you're after a high-grade 63-D Lincoln for example, where are you going to find the 100-200 you have to search to find a few decent coins? Still, I feel that's the best way to build a collection, because it allows you to examine so many coins, and to know what a super-nice one really looks like. Because this is my hobby, my labor is free, but I'd hate to do it for a living.

BTW - I bet the Kennedy does $30, and the Ike $25. My best guess is that the $7 (set) + $22 ( grading) + $10 (postage) + $5 (ebay fees) will really mean an $11 profit, and you'll have about 2 hours invested.

wondercoin

And, just to amplify the point further.

Let's assume someone spent 50 hours pouring through Lincolns searching for a rare MS67RD date. Let's assume further after 50 hours of searching, a single MS67RD was located of that date. Now, in my opinion, that 67RD isn't worth $1000 because $20/hour is a fair rate for those 50 hours. That coin is worth $1000 only because (and if) collectors BELIEVE it will take 50 hours more to produce another one. Now, when it takes 1000 hours to produce the next one, the price could be even higher next month. However, when it takes merely 10-20 hours to produce another coin, it would not be unreasonable for that coin to trade at $500 or less next time let say. Obviously, no one knows when and if the next coin will be produced and at what expense (time and raw materials). That is why some people opt to buy now and some opt to buy later. No guarantee either will win or lose with their decision. No guarantee the seacher will win or lose either regardless of how many hours he spends on a project it seems to me.

Wondercoin.

DHeath

Presley,

Not to diminish your find, because getting a coin to grade PR69 Dcam is always nice, but look at the link below. I might have overstated your profit. Your new net is $3 if both sell.

1977 PR69 Dcam Kennedy BIN $24.95
1977 PR68 Dcam Ike BIN $22.99

Russ

Don,

I was going to pop you on your estimates, but you beat me to it. I paid about $20 each for the two '77s I have.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

You're too good a sniper Russ, you don't count!

cladking

It's probably true that right now the amount of time and effort required
to "make" a gem is relevant to the value of the coin. But in the long run
that value will evaporate. In the long run there will not be access to
quantities of raw coins that have not been checked. In the long run it
will be strictly supply and demand.

dorkkarl

<< <i>can you at least make the hobby pay for itself? >>

i do. i haven't had to invest add'l $ in my coins since the 1980's, and my collection has grown quite a bit in that time. the trick for me has been to invest in the right coins and hold them a long time. for example, i bought mass. silver when it was cheap (relatively), and it has totaly sky-rocketed in the last year or so, so i have made 3 times what i paid on some of them. same with early copper. i;m not a dealer, but go from show to show and walk the floor. also, don't rip anyone, or they won't buy from you again. if you watch bowers auctions, you've pobably seen quite a few of my coins over the part few years. certain ones do better with that kind of exposture.

K S

pontiacinf

anymore questions after all this???

go back and read Mitches (wondercoin)'s last statement.

IT PRETTY MUCH DUMMY PROOFED IT.

MadMarty

<< <i>i bought a 77 proof set for 7.00. >>



I bought 9 of them sent the IKES into PCGS and got back 8 PR69DCAMs and 1 PR68DCAM. I'm still selling off the IKES on E-Bay for $40-$60 each. It's when you get a few dogs (PR67DCAMs or any CAM) that you can loose money. But I'm having a lot of fun in the meantime.

DHeath

Marty,

You suck!

presleyh

Well i guess a lot was said while i was taking my sunday afternoon siesta! To me there is still the aspect of playing a fairly safe lottery by attempting to upgrade raw coins into more valuable slabs. Besides building a collection there is the anticipation of posting of your latest submission. If it doesnt net financially higher this time it just makes you try a little harder to find that perfect specimen. If it was easy everybody would do it. Great imput guys thanks.

Spooly

You have to factor in the losted cost of "missing" a grade. MS-67 $100 --- MS-66 $10.00. Get back a MS-66 and you are screwed!

coinfinder

I too appreciate all the info put in here as this was a questions that I always wondered.

Dog97

OK, I get it now; presleyh was talking about cherrypicking sets & rolls. As a collector I don't place a value on my time spent looking at coins, it's just fun. There's been times if I were holding my mouth just right and the moon & stars were lined up just right I have made $50-$100 profit on a raw coin by slabbing it. Those times were so few & far between that I wouldn't want to depend on that to pay my bills! Most of the time I would score the grade just below the big $$ grade. My loses negated the profit and I broke about even.
Years ago the hobby paid for itself by me cracking slabs and getting higher grades but PQ coins got tough to find and I quit.

supercoin

I think that's the right idea... keep the idea in the back of your mind as your enjoying your hobby, and when you stumble across some free money sitting on the table (exceptional coin priced like a typical example), snatch it up and have it graded.

I purchased a raw 1971 Ike in MS66 for $3.00 once, just by getting lucky (it was just sitting there in a 2x2 at a coin shop).

supercoin

PS -- In contrast, when I tried to make more MS66, I succeeded, but it cost me many hours of time, many thousands of coins, and many hundreds of losses. Getting lucky is preferable.

gmarguli

BTW - I bet the Kennedy does $30, and the Ike $25. My best guess is that the $7 (set) + $22 ( grading) + $10 (postage) + $5 (ebay fees) will really mean an $11 profit, and you'll have about 2 hours invested.

and
I might have overstated your profit. Your new net is $3 if both sell.

Don't forget the PayPal fees which will run about $2. You're now down to $1 profit. Factor in the gas and wear and tear on your car to go mail the coins to PCGS and then to mail the coins to the auction winner and you're losing money.