If you have such an infatuation with monster toned coins,how come you or someone you know spent so much time DIPPING coins in the NFL set ?
You have never explained to the board members how silver coins become MONSTERS
Are they made that way ? Do you look at them and they change colors ?
What about NATURAL or accepted color vs artificial color ?
What about the original skin on a coin ?
What do you know about "TAB" toning ?
Are you still STAR struck ? The NGC star is a tool for dealers to get more money and you know it .
I sent an original lightly toned Washington quarter to NGC for upgrade as it had been previously graded more than 10 years ago. It upgraded one point without a star but when it was returned with a conservation tag,I asked WHY ? We can dip it white and it may upgrade another point. They wanted to remove the original skin by dipping so they could give me a "W" on the holder ? Oh and they get another fee for dipping. No Thanks
I sent a rare date Lincoln cent to NGC for a possible upgrade and that was returned with a conservation tag.They wanted to remove three or four very small spots on the coin
Copper is the most delicate metal to conserve and any brushing a red coin will eventually remove the original color.
Has anyone sold you a RAW monster that came back AT from PCGS ? Don"t tell me NO.
I am a sculptor and when I have a bronze sculpture patinated,it is done by applying chemicals to the surface with a brush and then applying heat (fire). Similar procedures can be done with coins
Have you seen the Buffalo nickels with similar pretty toning around the rims ?That patinateur is so good,he used to be called the Michaelangelo of Buffalo nickels
ORIGINAL TONING that is attractive is worth a premium.But what about dark toning ? Unattractive toning ?
I have always thought of toning as the starting point for degredation of the coin's surfaces. Therefore, a quick dip of a silver coin is a good thing if you are a knowledgeable dipper and use the right chemicals. I have always considered the composite metal of Lincoln cents too delicate to touch with anything I know about, so you get what you get with them.
Hey Lakesamman. This is a little off topic, but are you sure that you are talking about the correct auction when you are saying the IHC's at Long Beach in June 2002 were inferior and low priced? From Longacre's Ledger June 2002 "The Long Beach, Ca auction season brought four outstanding collections of gem full red Indian cents onto the market."
Prices realized include:
From the Kamauff collection assembled by Angel Dees
>>>>>>>If you have such an infatuation with monster toned coins,how come you or someone you know spent so much time DIPPING coins in the NFL set ?>>>>>>>>>
simple enough.....toning appears 99.9 % of the time as ugly browns and golds..just like on your silver service at home...thus the HUGE DEMAND for monster toned coins because they are so darned rare.....thus the price keeps going up because fo the the demand out paces the avaible pieces..... atmosphereic condidtions have to be just right to come up with a picasso......when the upgraders go to shows they buy on a techical basis.....they get rips when they spot them where the only negative is the eye appeal part of the grade...which is something they take care of by dipping ( this remediation cant be done forever as another part of the grade is affected....aka luster)....anyway this remediation takes place in different cities and in different hotels with different water qualities..thus when dipped most are not properly rinsed thus in a few years the ugly browns and golds return and the profeesional upgrader has a whole new ( actually the same coins ) crop of coins to remediate ( I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THEY DIDNT RINSE PROPERLY ON PURPOSE....SORT OF AN ANNUITY FOR THEM).....the NFL SET had numerous techically top tier coins....because i knew the game ..in fact i looked for those coins as it was the only way to buy them somewhere in the ball park.....thus ..you see..there is a tremendous advantage in the long term to know who owned your coins and who remediated them....bill spears was the best.....and he did it all right when it came to the long term health of a coin....that being said he did any of mine that needed PERMANENT REMEDIATION......the other monster set out there is the mike gilley set....his has been totally remediated and will stay in their present staes of " eye appeal" for an awefully long time to come....AND SHOULD COMMAND LARGE PREMIUMS DUE TO THAT FACT...just as mine did
>>>>>>>You have never explained to the board members how silver coins become MONSTERS>>>>>>
well to me a monster is not just a toned coin.....a blast white head light coin can be a monster .....to me i use the term when a coin is a no brainer....and will be graded AT LEAST WHAT THE HOLDER SAYS ....EVERYTIME......so many unknowledgable people buy plastic and would be shell shocked if they knew there 96-s in ms 66 ...if cracked out would probably come back in a 65 holder ....thus taking a 40,000 dumper....if you look at the bob dier set in the regisrty....half the coins are mooses...the other half are dumpers ....now you know why i challenged him to a 100,000 crack out contest....AND HE PASSED
>>>>>>>>>Do you look at them and they change colors ?>>>>>>>
owning some of my coins for 30 years i have found out the toning progression.......yes your ugly silver service will change over 30 years ( but your wife wont let it)...the first change a coin gets is the brown rims turn to blue.....if you have light brown ( gold is better) the blue meets with the gold and turns green.....get the picture
>>>>>What about NATURAL or accepted color vs artificial color ?>>>> at coins are phoney and man made ...i have no use for them and i can spot them a mile away........at least 99.99% of the time....the .001% that fool me is the work of an artist....and he does it for profit......and he does it again...thus when you see " twins"...you know his work and i dont get folled again....THATS EXACTLY HOW THE SERVICES DO IT
>>>>>What about the original skin on a coin ?>>>>>
good question...each dip does hurt.....its called luster...luster loss depends on a lot of tangibles like dip strenght ....type of materials used ect....... for example.....tryc....doesnt hurt luster but removes dirt
>>>>>>What do you know about "TAB" toning ?>>>>>>>love it when its mixed with colors and dont like it ugly brown
>>>>>>>>Are you still STAR struck ? The NGC star is a tool for dealers to get more money and you know it >>>>>>>
well here is where you miss the boat and the rubber meets the road....yes i am STAR * struck....as they ARE SUPERIOR COINS.....and your statement here doesnt make a lick of sense......if you believe in the term " rip" ...and if you dont ....I CANT HELP YOU .....AS YOUR LOST.........the STAR* all on notice of what they are looking at........if you would of read my antietam diatribe....you would of deduce i ripped the card form a dealer who wrote a book on the subject....a 100,000 gain for me and a 100,000 loss for him.........and for example in my NFL SET if my 93-cc would of had a STAR* on it i would of never bought it FROM A DEALER IN A MS 64 HOLDER FOR 6,000.....because the first shot in it came back a 65 and sold for 46,000
in conclusion......i will tell you ....I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT SIGHT UNSEEN...............BUT I WILL NOW.........I WILL BUY THE STAR * SIGHT UNSEEN AND PAY A PREMIUM OVER THE ASK.......and i`ll put ngc `s eye against yours any day ....and after 10 years lets compare collections ( you not having any star coins ) and I CAN ASSURE YOU YOU WILL LOSE EVERY TIME
>>>>>>I sent an original lightly toned Washington quarter to NGC for upgrade as it had been previously graded more than 10 years ago. It upgraded one point without a star but when it was returned with a conservation tag,I asked WHY ? We can dip it white and it may upgrade another point. They wanted to remove the original skin by dipping so they could give me a "W" on the holder ? Oh and they get another fee for dipping. No Thanks>>>>>>
THATS YOUR CHOICE
>>>>>>>I sent a rare date Lincoln cent to NGC for a possible upgrade and that was returned with a conservation tag.They wanted to remove three or four very small spots on the coin>>>>
spots are a killer for copper...email me and i`ll tell you how to remediate copper...you can test on you pocket change first
>>>>>Copper is the most delicate metal to conserve and any brushing a red coin will eventually remove the original color.>>>
see the above
>>>>Has anyone sold you a RAW monster that came back AT from PCGS ? Don"t tell me NO.>>>>>
ok i wont....thats what turned me off on pcgs...a few years ago i sent in a monster toned coin to pcgs..i graded it 68...it came back AT...i sent it to ngc it came back 67.....believing in the coin i sent it in to ngc evry 3 months for a year.....it came back 67------67-------67------67....the last time i submitted it thru Sil......after returning from ngc he sent it to pcgs ( without my knowledge ) at the show the same day...it came back pcgs 67....a year earlier they graded it AT....mmmmmm.....i tried 1 more time at ngc and it came back 67 a fifth time....i gave up on the coin and asked double sheet for it...several not very knowledgable people passed....one guy finally paid my price and bought it at a show...4 hours later it came in a pcgs 68 holder...he was all over himself ( you win some and loose some )...needless to say he bought me dinner that night ...and a coupla shots of ( $125 per shot ) louie the 13 th
4 months ago i retried pcgs with a california in a 66 holder trying for a 67........it came back 62.......64.......65......66.....HOW ABOUT THOSE APPLES.....A 62!!!!!QUADRUPLE DUH!!....i even covered the grade and showed it to 2 x graders..both said 66 shot 67 which is what i thought .......A 62 ...ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!now you know why i sound pissed.....its totally bull
a well known nickel dealer was seen in a tyrant ....swearing and all and cussing up a storm....a i asked his partner what happened..he said ( keep in mind this dealer is the best nickel man there is including all of pcgs`s graders)....they bought a 100 coin nickel deal yeasterday ...they sent them thru and went 0 for 100.....he sent them in again and again went 0 for 100 ....thats 20,000 up in smoke...no worries thats just part of it and tuff darts for him....but here is the killer....jack h ( another top shelf upgrader) came over and picked 20 coins out of the 100 ( he paid a premium )...sent them in the same day and 9 of the 20 upgraded....NOW THATS A BUNCH OF BULL and very inconsistent dont you think!!!WAT TO GO PCGS YOU SCREWED ANOTHER
I>>> a sculptor and when I have a bronze sculpture patinated,it is done by applying chemicals to the surface with a brush and then applying heat (fire). Similar procedures can be done with coins>>>>
its really easy to tell when you do that...dont tell me you think your the first to come up with that one!!!!!lol!!!!
>>>>>>ou seen the Buffalo nickels with similar pretty toning around the rims ?That patinateur is so good,he used to be called the Michaelangelo of Buffalo nickels>>>>
yep i have seen them......body bag city
>>>>>>AL TONING that is attractive is worth a premium.But what about dark toning ? Unattractive toning ?>>>
the market has been and always will gravitate towards ATTRACTIVE toning ......and run from ugly....nobody wants an ugly coin....and they trade below bid...some meatheads pay ask for the plastic and at selling time taka a huge loss
>>>>>educate me MONSTERMAN>>>>
i hope i have helped
gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I WILL PUT MY NGC eyes, my MY STARS against yours and win everytime
You don"t know squat about copper ! Nor do you know Jack Sch--- about my coins !!!!!
I beg you to bring ALL your best copper (preferably Indian Cents) to the PCGS booth at Long Beach I will be exhibiting my Indian cents at "The Showdown" Make sure you bring ALL your stars
And when you lose,guaranteed, you will use a Fleet enema to clean yourself out O.K.
Hey! I like my little conservative set of Indians! Quit picking on them!
I built this set because I couldn't afford better, and frankly didn't want to. I like Indians, but not enough to shell out the bucks to go higher grades and red coins. My 50 pc commem set is my pride and joy.
By the way, the 1877 is purchased, but I have two more months of payments at Heritage on it. Can't wait to complete the set!
Morgan Gibbs
Morgan
Collecting modern and vintage commems, indian cents, and modern type.
The answer is simple. It's impossible to know what the coins are worth sight unseen. Take 2 identical MS65R IHC registry sets. If the first one is like those sold at the June 2002 LB show, the quality is just not there and the coins go for low prices. Let's say a second set was patiently put together by someone (over many years) who knew something about quality and collected more than high grade plastic holders. People will stand in line to buy these coins and pay over 65 money because they are all pushing the next highest grade. Clearly the second collection is of higher quality. Using a price guide, there would have been a unresolved tie.
I couldn't agree more. I take the registry with a grain of salt for the reasons explained very well here by a collector who's opinions I've come to value. The registry will always be a collection of labels from a service we may trust more than any other, but that's not saying much. I'll take a specialist in a specific series over a 9 to 5 grader any day, and give him the advantage of describing a coin rather than just posting a grade on a label. Under the limited conditions a market value weighting system is about as good as it will get.
Shylock, that's exactly why the showdowns will be an excellent thing.
I agree with you completely on the eye appeal issue. I don't even have my most prized collection slabbed, and if anyone wanted to meet and compare 1878 Morgan varieties (no plastic necessary), I would cleave their bosom. There are two sets that would challenge mine that I know of, but there is no way to know who's is the best unless they are looked at in person.
Therefore, I think a showdown of the top sets will not only be fun and informative, but decisive.
Thanks for the reply - glad I got someones attention with my provacative comments! That was the intent.
I agree - there were some impressive prices realized. That doesn't always mean the coins were worth it. For example, I flew to LA, paid hotel, meal and rental car expenses and wasn't about to go home skunked, without a coin. That is why a certain late date MS66R went for twice Pink Sheet price! I knew of at least one other collector that did the same. Will I ever recoup my money - I doubt it. Was the coin that great - no.
With regards to the comments in Longacres Ledger by the editor (Rick Snow), whose knowledge I respect and admire dearly, what else would you expect him to say about Photo Sealed coins??
The toughest gem red IHC's to find are the years 1866-73, 1877 and 1886 (both types). I consider these tough dates the heart and soul of any IHC collection. Condition rarities are another matter. These really tough dates are what my comments referred to. For example, consider these prices realized:
Hammer Pink Sheet
Lot 5071 1866 65R-PCGS 7475 12,500 5076 1866 65R-PCGS 10,925 12,500 5078 1873 65R-PCGS 5750 12,500 5079 1873 65R-PCGS 5750 12,500 5083 1877 65R-NGC 18,400 27,500 5140 1866 65R NGC 5175 12,500 5141 1867 65R NGC 5463 12,500 5147 1871 65R NGC 5290 15,000 5148 1872 65R NGC 18,400 30,000 5150 1873 65R NGC 4140 12,500 5152 1873 S1 23,000 60,000 5156 1877 65R NGC 14,950 27,500 I think you get the idea. The quality of the core coins (in my opinion) just wasn't there. Had a properly graded 1877 been available, I would have paid over Pink Sheet to get it. (Stewart, if your reading, can I buy yours!!) The same for a 1867 or 1868. As I review my notes from the auction, a theme becomes apparent...weak strike...fly specks...finger print....overgraded....missing denticles...gash on cheek....different colors obv. vs rev....blotchy....dull...unnatural tone...etc. This from registry sets!
Anyway, the above is only opinion. If you bought a coin from one of these sets and love it, great! There were some I would have loved to add to my collection too but thought the price too much. Conversly, I'm sure I have coins you would think are dogs. In collecting, it's the subjectivity and difference in opinions that's half the fun, isn't it?!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
>>>>>>I WILL PUT MY NGC eyes, my MY STARS against yours and win everytime>>>>>>>>
i doubt it .....but i kinda like over confident dweebs......after i spank em around a few times they sorta get stunned... and get that shell shocked look in their eyes....but remember talk is cheap and whiskey costs money...so bring it on!!!!!
>>>>>>you don"t know squat about copper >>>>>>
cant figure what gave you that idea.....i never said a thing...i think your suffering from an inferiority complex....there is no other explanation for your comment!!!now relax ....look deep into your soul and ask yourself why you said what you said.....people often lash out like you did when they suffer from an inferiority complex.....there are varying degrees of it so take a deep breath...tell yourself "im ok"....and you might feel better
>>>>>>>>>Nor do you know Jack Sch--- about my coins>>>>
oh stew.....your right i dont....and i couldnt care less.....your so defensive.......everyone knows the best copper is owned by my good friend dr. tom.......he even has dr. al beat so dont feel like the lone ranger......dr tom told me he would sell you some of his dups if you were nice......that way you could upgrade ......but his `77 red is going to me for my type set.....a lock 68 red and by far the finest so you wont be getting that one....sorry!!! i gotta tell ya you copper guys are strange......ask 100 people off the street which is better looking a monster red or monster red/brown....and all 90% will say the red/brown.......in fact monster browns would also get the nod from the 100......yet you pay multiples for reds over red/browns..and its worse for monster browns.....go figure!!!!i am sure you are aware that copper is the only series like that!!!
so now i have figured you out!!!!! :-) ...go see your shrink
gregg
gregg
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
The auction prices realized for Indians vs. Pink Sheet is very interesting indeed. I do not follow the series that closely. Is it the case that those key coins were simply "weak"? Has the grading scale changed over the years such that MS65RD pieces no longer look nice enough to buy at those prices? What caused those Indian prices to be so low? Is the Indian market so thinly traded that basically no one needed the average quality stuff?
On the Proof side of the Indians I saw there was a PCGS-PR68 Indian that brought under $20k? It was cameo, making it pop 1/0 in PCGS-PR68CAM for the entire series. Why were no Indian collectors playing seriously on that coin, such that a dealer had to win it "for a song"? Anyone want to take a shot at this one?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
A Pro Bowl linebacker and a sculptor slug it out over the finer points of numismatics -- you gotta love this place!
Wondercoin -- You got it right the first time with "are these coins simply weak?". IHs have as diverse a range of quality within the gem grades as any series. The often suspect RD attribution muddles the prices realized even more, particulary in the late 1860s though mid 70s coins. The fact that Rick Snow's photoseal has become an accepted grade confirmation in the market bears that out. If you look at his population of photosealed coins vs. the PCGS & NGC pops you get an idea of how many low end IHs exist in gem holders.
I think Monsterman's statement about RBs being chosen over RDs for eye appeal applies to the huge number of below average RD coins that recycle through the market. Their problems are more obvious than on RBs. I can't imagine anyone not choosing a shimmering, blast RD true gem -- the problem is finding them.
Lakesammman, good to have another IHC man on board. This has turned into a wild IHC thread laced with testosterone [thankfully not your posts]. Anyway your comments about the key dates seem right on, some did go for low prices. I wasn't there, didn't see the coins in person, so I can't argue though many of the keys that you cite are in NGC holders which many copper collectors are biased against. The 1873s are puzzling. Were they that bad or were there just no bidders? There were so many coins at Long Beach the money could have just headed elsewhere.
I do have a couple of the Elkin coins which I am happy with. Are they perfect? No, they are copper and there is not much perfect around in the way of copper. My gem collection is still in the early stages and I haven't yet grappled with trying to find the keys.
Ira Stein has a decent PCGS MS65RD for sale now on ebay, but you probably know that.
Morgan Gibbs, I like you RB collection. Vernon Sebby has had a series of articles in Longacre's Ledger about light RB IHC's and their scarcity.
Several 65 Red's have those distracing red dots, as I call them, making them not so attractive. I have totally moved away from Red 65's and instead am buying 65 Rb's and 64 reds (better value).
There's no doubt there were some coins worth buying but those holes were already full for me. Congrats on finding some you like!
If anyone has the following, I would be interested. Gem red, MS65R or better. natural toned, spot free, lustrous IHC coins dates 1867, 68, 77 or 86 (ty1). Let me know.
If anyone needs the following, let me know.
1858/7 EDS PCGS 63 Looks like the one at Eagle Eye but w/o the planchet defects on the obv. 1864 no L P66 Heathgate - pic at Eagle Eye 1875 P65R Penn Collection - Bowers
What did people think of the 1864 L P64R that sold for 138K. When that was shipped to me originally (insured by Bowers for 30K!), it was uncertified and said to have "questionable toning". It looked like the cover coin on Bowers book, a beautiful pink. It now is a much deeper red. Significance?? If anyone else noticed, let me know.
Re: the 1877 currently on ebay, email me at Larsontlmm@msn.com if you want my opinion. I would rather not comment on current auctions "on line".
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
I was at the Bowers and Merena auction of the Pennsylvania estate when the coin sold for $60,000 to Ron Itskowitz actring as an agent for alex highland
I was at the auction where the same coin in the exact same holder brought $138,000. Rick Snow was the underbidder !!!!! It sold to a dealer and I believe it is now being sold to a collector. The coin did not change color
If you ever submit RAW coins to PCGS,you must know how paranoid they are about copper.There are numerous times a coin doesn't get graded the first time....but it could the second or third time into the grading service. PATIENCE
Unless you own or have for sale another OR a better Proof 1864 "L",I think it is in bad taste to bash a coin,in a series that I collect and you collect and has the reputation as the most expensive small cent sold at auction
Oreville - I can't state what PCGS will do and will not do.They are laying out funds for the "Showdown" that I instigated.I was told that they want to get all the feedback after the event before they commit to another Showdown.I'm told that so far there is a giant buzz going on in the coin industry about this event.
No, I did not buy the !871 aluminum pattern.I believe Mitch owns it . I just borrowed the icon.I collect 1858 patterns.
By the way, I challenged Doug Wright (aka White Fang) to a "Showdown" 1936-1958 Lincoln cent proofs and he accepted.I can't do anything as it is in the court of PCGS
Gregg - I luv ya too!!!!!! got to have fun and create a little excitement.........I'm also doing my thing about promoting the "Shoedown"
Stewart: I know Mitch owned it. I was one of the underbidders. We discussed that pattern at length.
Well. imagine my surprise to see you with the icon of the coin. I like to keep track of the whereabouts of many patterns and coins since.......well that is what we are supposed to do?
So I have to start a buzzard .......eer.........buzz for PART II of the indian head cent showdown in Baltimore in which monsterman has to tackle both you and one of your sculptures for a double tackle while Ally/Joshua just laughs in the background?
Hmmmm, I don't even own one slabbed mint state Indian head cent. Mine are still all raw but all low end. But when I do get one I do want just one superb gem BU (in 67 red or better). But just one.
Re: the 1864-L P64R - I'm not bashing the coin - Still love it, actually, still kicking myself for not buying it originally (when I was phone bidding, Bowers never let me know it had actually been certified, so I was bidding on it as a questionably toned, uncertified coin! - those of you there in person obviously had the advantage) - I was one bid behind Rick at the current auction (actually, he was bidding for me) - I just wanted to know if anyone else thought it had mellowed a bit.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
I would consider trading it though for Stewart's 1877 Indian in MS66RD - you know, the purty one. My coin is 6 years older and they only struck 1 or 2 examples. That 1877 Indian has 100,000's of examples. But, I would consider an even up trade if Stewart is interested.
Now, don't laugh too hard - I get the same reaction (and offers) from COLLECTORS all the time when I ask them to part with their "crown jewels" Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
Have listed the initial IHC variety set...I expect to be blown away soon but it's fun to be #1 for a short while! Does that get me a spot at the showdown?? (Just Kidding)!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
Tim -- That's an impressive way to get the variety sets rolling, to say the least. You certainly set the table with the cornerstones. I've drueled over the images of these incredible coins (they're posted in various places on indianheads.org), but I would stand in line to finally see them in person. Owning just one would put a permanent smile on my face.
I was going to say your 86 Type 2 is listed in the wrong slot, but then I remembered it was graded before PCGS attributed these so the cert# groups it with the Type 1s. At one time I listed your T2 as ex Epstein since I assumed only one had ever been graded 66RD (and the pops are no help due to the fact I just mentioned). Ira D. corrected me, and says he owns the Epstein Type 2 as it fits in with all the other Epstein cert #'s as far as sequence goes. They were all regraded at the same time and have numbers that start with 9949 like your 1873 cl3 67RD, which no doubt is the Epstein coin. You and Ira need to compare them someday, preferably while I'm there!
I would love to see a showdown between Tim"s 86 ty 2 and Ira's 86 ty 2 at Long Beach.Can you arrange it Tim ? I know Rick is out of town for the next two weeks.
I hate to admit I was relying on a off the cuff comment on the 1886 Ty2 by Rick and made no further effort to verify. I will remove the designation until it's clarified.
I'm writing PCGS to get them to recognize the 1886 as a type 2. I don't know if they'll rely on catalog descriptions and photographs w/o having the coin. I would prefer the coin stay in the old holder. I should hear from them next week, after the holiday.
A 1886 showdown might be fun, if the logistics can be worked out. Has Ira responded??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
Lakesamman - Do you have Ira's phone numbers ? Are you coming to Long Beach for the "Showdown? Carry your 86 ty 2 in your pocket I believe Shylock,Rick and myself have Ira's phone numbers We'll just tell Ira to bring his 86 ty 2.
Nice complete varieties set !!!!!!! Do you have a 65 plain 5 and a 67/67 ? Have you e-mailed dh@collectors.com to tell him to recognize these two varieties. Have you heard about the 88/7 in full red ?
Stewart - Read your PM message from a couple days ago (below the CU logo at the upper left). I'm going to email Ira and see if he would mind bringing his T2. Tim has a very nice 67/67:
I've talked with Sam Lukes a few times who says there is a 65R 1888/7 but no one I know has seen it - have you?? I think it's mentioned in the Bowers book too. Has anyone else?? I can't imagine in this day and age it not being certified but you never know. Every once in a while someone comes across a old time collection and there are amazing coins still uncertified (like the Penn. collection or the collection the only red 1873 S1 was found (by Dr. T)).
I've emailed the PCGS folks. Paul sent a request for all the Fly-In members to do the same. I don't know why the 67/67 was considered a important variety in the old scheme of things (listed with the old registry but not counted). In the Steve/Flynn book it rates low so perhaps that's why it was dropped. It seems all the red book varieties should have been included.
The 67/67 I bought from Rick is said to be the "finest" but I don't really know - he may have said it to get me to buy it! It's a 64R. Once I complete the "top 19" I'm going to stop on the varieties (the 20th, the 1888/7 S2, I don't think is a overdate, so I don't plan on buying it).
Anyway, enough rambling....sure would like to know if anyone has that red 1888/7!
PS - Paul...is druel anything like drool??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
Tim - I knew it was only a matter of time before you started editing my forum posts. I was an English major who now works in the auto industry -- enough said. By the way, couldn't you come up with a forum nic that's a little harder to spell?
In Bower's book he has a commentary by Sam Lukes in 1993 regarding the 1888/7 65RD Snow listed in his original registry of 13 known examples: "The coin, though raw, was fully red and original and graded MS65RD by that particular dealer, who was asking $50,000. I declined at that level and was informed within a year that the coin was privately sold for $43,000".
Guys I figure this thread is as good as a place as any to ask a couple of IHC questions. Now that I have put together 12-15 PCGS certified MS65 Indian Head Cents [most photosealed] and it will start to cost me some real money to continue, [roughly figure at least $175K for a non-variety set], what are the chances in ten years that when I look at these coins they will all still be red and not one third of them red-brown? Is this happening to anyone and does anyone think it is worthwhile to use the double box Intercept Shield system for their MS RD copper coins?
I'm also curious what a long time copper collector has to say about this.
I feel the critical time is when a copper is removed from its holder or slab and exposed to an extreme environment (humidity, poor handling etc...). If well cared for in a stable, protected resting place I can't see why a copper that stayed RD over 100 years, including an era when protection wasn't very sophisticated, wouldn't stay red for another century in a sealed slab. My guess is all the true RD slabbed coppers that have "turned" while in one owner's possession either weren't handled well or played with prior to slabbing.
As for spending a little for added hi-tech protection, I believe in overkill. The number of silica cannisters I own is ridiculous, but for a few bucks apiece they're worth the piece of mind. In a humid region like Long Island they turn pink pretty fast.
The first good thing about a copper coin in a PCGS holder is that their guarantee covers the color of copper.By giving this guarantee,they leave themselves very vulnerable.......so
1) Do not keep copper anywhere near the ocean such as Florida or eastern long island 2) Do not keep copper in a kitchen 3) Do not keep copper in direct sunlight
If a copper coin has a funny color or looks too good,DON't buy it as high quality Indian heads are scarce and sell for sometimes high premiums.Indian heads have become vulnerable to the many coin doctors and unfortunately some of these coins get into holders.Some of these doctors are very good or should I say coin restorers.
NCS is suppose to RESTORE copper but I don't know anyone who has used their service successfully. I believe there is a thread which deals with people waiting for results or whether NCS will even work on their coins.Unfortunately NCS does not have a menu.
I only had one coin change in the holder.The luster went from being a blazer to being subdued and flat.
I would suggest buying green label holders as these coin are most likely stabile as they have been slabbed more than three years ago.
I posted an inquiry with NGC this morning, asking them what process, evaluation etc., they use on copper. They usually respond in a couple of days, if they choose to respond.
Here are a few more tips....I agree with everything said so far.
I have a roll of 1969 pennies I acquired as a kid. They were stuck in a plastic tube and ignored for 32 years while living in Minn. and the NW w/o any particular care. They are still red, so copper will stay red for prolonged periods of time.
The reason I even mention them is that they are acting as my "canary". I keep them unprotected with my IHC's. If I see anything happening to them, I worry about what's happening to my IHC's. I take these additional measures.
1. Keep a dessicant nearby to keep the humidity down (not just in the room - keep it in the safety deposit box (or wherever you keep them. Speaking of banks, rent only the higher boxes as the lower ones could be flooded if the sprinkler goes off.
2. Put the holders in the Intercept Shield little boxes, then 10-at-a-time in the bigger boxes - double protection.
3. I pack "copper wool" (sold at marine stores) around the boxes, changing it yearly at a minimum. If there is anything bad in the environment, it will react with that first (large surface area of copper).
It probably seems excessive but, if your paying big bucks for a coin who's primary attribute is being original red, I think it's worth it.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
The notion of buying the old green holders was one that had dawned on me as those coins indeed have some proven recent stability. Currently I am trying to avoid the recently graded coins with the bar coins back on the front of the holder.
Paul had a good thread a while back tracing a coin from a 64RB holder into a 65RD holder [I think that was the history] that I found very scary. Obviously a good coin doctor was at work who fooled PCGS.
As for PCGS's color guarantee, I don't know how much import to place in it. Without rehashing some old threads, Collectors Universe stock is in the dumper and their cash reserves are somewhat low. There is at least some question about the company's long term viability. PCGS is not the problem, but they are being dragged down by some of the unprofitable divisions. Mike is more knowledgable here if anyone has questions.
Nothing in particular that was realeased in their financial report indicates to me that they have a cash problem, what I attempted to point out, without having the knowledge of the footnotes is that they are not turning inventory quickly, which I would suspect is due to having receivables out to related entities. What we don't know is the aging on the A/R's, whether there a many or few customer's making up this list, and how financialy viable they are. These are all questions that could only be answered with more information. Only thing we know for sure, is that their cash is not being used efficiently. Stock prices reflect this.
Comments
Monsterman- I am going to give you my 2 cents
If you have such an infatuation with monster toned coins,how come you or someone you know spent so much time DIPPING coins in the NFL set ?
You have never explained to the board members how silver coins become MONSTERS
Are they made that way ?
Do you look at them and they change colors ?
What about NATURAL or accepted color vs artificial color ?
What about the original skin on a coin ?
What do you know about "TAB" toning ?
Are you still STAR struck ? The NGC star is a tool for dealers to get more money and you know it .
I sent an original lightly toned Washington quarter to NGC for upgrade as it had been previously graded more than 10 years ago.
It upgraded one point without a star but when it was returned with a conservation tag,I asked WHY ? We can dip it white and it may upgrade another point. They wanted to remove the original skin by dipping so they could give me a "W" on the holder ? Oh and they get another fee for dipping. No Thanks
I sent a rare date Lincoln cent to NGC for a possible upgrade and that was returned with a conservation tag.They wanted to remove three or four very small spots on the coin
Copper is the most delicate metal to conserve and any brushing a red coin will eventually remove the original color.
Has anyone sold you a RAW monster that came back AT from PCGS ? Don"t tell me NO.
I am a sculptor and when I have a bronze sculpture patinated,it is done by applying chemicals to the surface with a brush and then applying heat (fire). Similar procedures can be done with coins
Have you seen the Buffalo nickels with similar pretty toning around the rims ?That patinateur is so good,he used to be called the Michaelangelo of Buffalo nickels
ORIGINAL TONING that is attractive is worth a premium.But what about dark toning ? Unattractive toning ?
O.K. educate me MONSTERMAN
Stewart
Prices realized include:
From the Kamauff collection assembled by Angel Dees
1909S MS65 RD $17,250.
1886 V2 MS65 RD $23,000.
1906 MS66 RD $3,450.
From Elkin
1867 MS65 RD $13,800.
1889 MS66 RD $9,775.
1871 MS66 RD $10,925.
1906 MS66 RD $4,313.
I could continue. Even the illustrious Mr. Blay who is very difficult to impress, must have been impressed by some of the prices realized.
>>>>>>>If you have such an infatuation with monster toned coins,how come you or someone you know spent so much time DIPPING coins in the NFL set ?>>>>>>>>>
simple enough.....toning appears 99.9 % of the time as ugly browns and golds..just like on your silver service at home...thus the HUGE DEMAND for monster toned coins because they are so darned rare.....thus the price keeps going up because fo the the demand out paces the avaible pieces..... atmosphereic condidtions have to be just right to come up with a picasso......when the upgraders go to shows they buy on a techical basis.....they get rips when they spot them where the only negative is the eye appeal part of the grade...which is something they take care of by dipping ( this remediation cant be done forever as another part of the grade is affected....aka luster)....anyway this remediation takes place in different cities and in different hotels with different water qualities..thus when dipped most are not properly rinsed thus in a few years the ugly browns and golds return and the profeesional upgrader has a whole new ( actually the same coins ) crop of coins to remediate ( I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THEY DIDNT RINSE PROPERLY ON PURPOSE....SORT OF AN ANNUITY FOR THEM).....the NFL SET had numerous techically top tier coins....because i knew the game ..in fact i looked for those coins as it was the only way to buy them somewhere in the ball park.....thus ..you see..there is a tremendous advantage in the long term to know who owned your coins and who remediated them....bill spears was the best.....and he did it all right when it came to the long term health of a coin....that being said he did any of mine that needed PERMANENT REMEDIATION......the other monster set out there is the mike gilley set....his has been totally remediated and will stay in their present staes of " eye appeal" for an awefully long time to come....AND SHOULD COMMAND LARGE PREMIUMS DUE TO THAT FACT...just as mine did
>>>>>>>You have never explained to the board members how silver coins become MONSTERS>>>>>>
well to me a monster is not just a toned coin.....a blast white head light coin can be a monster .....to me i use the term when a coin is a no brainer....and will be graded AT LEAST WHAT THE HOLDER SAYS ....EVERYTIME......so many unknowledgable people buy plastic and would be shell shocked if they knew there 96-s in ms 66 ...if cracked out would probably come back in a 65 holder ....thus taking a 40,000 dumper....if you look at the bob dier set in the regisrty....half the coins are mooses...the other half are dumpers ....now you know why i challenged him to a 100,000 crack out contest....AND HE PASSED
>>>>>>>>>Do you look at them and they change colors ?>>>>>>>
owning some of my coins for 30 years i have found out the toning progression.......yes your ugly silver service will change over 30 years ( but your wife wont let it)...the first change a coin gets is the brown rims turn to blue.....if you have light brown ( gold is better) the blue meets with the gold and turns green.....get the picture
>>>>>What about NATURAL or accepted color vs artificial color ?>>>> at coins are phoney and man made ...i have no use for them and i can spot them a mile away........at least 99.99% of the time....the .001% that fool me is the work of an artist....and he does it for profit......and he does it again...thus when you see " twins"...you know his work and i dont get folled again....THATS EXACTLY HOW THE SERVICES DO IT
>>>>>What about the original skin on a coin ?>>>>>
good question...each dip does hurt.....its called luster...luster loss depends on a lot of tangibles like dip strenght ....type of materials used ect....... for example.....tryc....doesnt hurt luster but removes dirt
>>>>>>What do you know about "TAB" toning ?>>>>>>>love it when its mixed with colors and dont like it ugly brown
i love this one__________
http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/coinimage.asp?1655181-027o.jpg
>>>>>>>>Are you still STAR struck ? The NGC star is a tool for dealers to get more money and you know it >>>>>>>
well here is where you miss the boat and the rubber meets the road....yes i am STAR * struck....as they ARE SUPERIOR COINS.....and your statement here doesnt make a lick of sense......if you believe in the term " rip" ...and if you dont ....I CANT HELP YOU .....AS YOUR LOST.........the STAR* all on notice of what they are looking at........if you would of read my antietam diatribe....you would of deduce i ripped the card form a dealer who wrote a book on the subject....a 100,000 gain for me and a 100,000 loss for him.........and for example in my NFL SET if my 93-cc would of had a STAR* on it i would of never bought it FROM A DEALER IN A MS 64 HOLDER FOR 6,000.....because the first shot in it came back a 65 and sold for 46,000
in conclusion......i will tell you ....I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT SIGHT UNSEEN...............BUT I WILL NOW.........I WILL BUY THE STAR * SIGHT UNSEEN AND PAY A PREMIUM OVER THE ASK.......and i`ll put ngc `s eye against yours any day ....and after 10 years lets compare collections ( you not having any star coins ) and I CAN ASSURE YOU YOU WILL LOSE EVERY TIME
>>>>>>I sent an original lightly toned Washington quarter to NGC for upgrade as it had been previously graded more than 10 years ago.
It upgraded one point without a star but when it was returned with a conservation tag,I asked WHY ? We can dip it white and it may upgrade another point. They wanted to remove the original skin by dipping so they could give me a "W" on the holder ? Oh and they get another fee for dipping. No Thanks>>>>>>
THATS YOUR CHOICE
>>>>>>>I sent a rare date Lincoln cent to NGC for a possible upgrade and that was returned with a conservation tag.They wanted to remove three or four very small spots on the coin>>>>
spots are a killer for copper...email me and i`ll tell you how to remediate copper...you can test on you pocket change first
>>>>>Copper is the most delicate metal to conserve and any brushing a red coin will eventually remove the original color.>>>
see the above
>>>>Has anyone sold you a RAW monster that came back AT from PCGS ? Don"t tell me NO.>>>>>
ok i wont....thats what turned me off on pcgs...a few years ago i sent in a monster toned coin to pcgs..i graded it 68...it came back AT...i sent it to ngc it came back 67.....believing in the coin i sent it in to ngc evry 3 months for a year.....it came back 67------67-------67------67....the last time i submitted it thru Sil......after returning from ngc he sent it to pcgs ( without my knowledge ) at the show the same day...it came back pcgs 67....a year earlier they graded it AT....mmmmmm.....i tried 1 more time at ngc and it came back 67 a fifth time....i gave up on the coin and asked double sheet for it...several not very knowledgable people passed....one guy finally paid my price and bought it at a show...4 hours later it came in a pcgs 68 holder...he was all over himself ( you win some and loose some )...needless to say he bought me dinner that night ...and a coupla shots of ( $125 per shot ) louie the 13 th
4 months ago i retried pcgs with a california in a 66 holder trying for a 67........it came back 62.......64.......65......66.....HOW ABOUT THOSE APPLES.....A 62!!!!!QUADRUPLE DUH!!....i even covered the grade and showed it to 2 x graders..both said 66 shot 67 which is what i thought .......A 62 ...ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!now you know why i sound pissed.....its totally bull
a well known nickel dealer was seen in a tyrant ....swearing and all and cussing up a storm....a i asked his partner what happened..he said ( keep in mind this dealer is the best nickel man there is including all of pcgs`s graders)....they bought a 100 coin nickel deal yeasterday ...they sent them thru and went 0 for 100.....he sent them in again and again went 0 for 100 ....thats 20,000 up in smoke...no worries thats just part of it and tuff darts for him....but here is the killer....jack h ( another top shelf upgrader) came over and picked 20 coins out of the 100 ( he paid a premium )...sent them in the same day and 9 of the 20 upgraded....NOW THATS A BUNCH OF BULL and very inconsistent dont you think!!!WAT TO GO PCGS YOU SCREWED ANOTHER
I>>> a sculptor and when I have a bronze sculpture patinated,it is done by applying chemicals to the surface with a brush and then applying heat (fire). Similar procedures can be done with coins>>>>
its really easy to tell when you do that...dont tell me you think your the first to come up with that one!!!!!lol!!!!
>>>>>>ou seen the Buffalo nickels with similar pretty toning around the rims ?That patinateur is so good,he used to be called the Michaelangelo of Buffalo nickels>>>>
yep i have seen them......body bag city
>>>>>>AL TONING that is attractive is worth a premium.But what about dark toning ? Unattractive toning ?>>>
the market has been and always will gravitate towards ATTRACTIVE toning ......and run from ugly....nobody wants an ugly coin....and they trade below bid...some meatheads pay ask for the plastic and at selling time taka a huge loss
>>>>>educate me MONSTERMAN>>>>
i hope i have helped
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Gregg - Monsterman
I WILL PUT MY NGC eyes, my MY STARS against yours and win everytime
You don"t know squat about copper ! Nor do you know Jack Sch--- about my coins !!!!!
I beg you to bring ALL your best copper (preferably Indian Cents) to the PCGS booth at Long Beach
I will be exhibiting my Indian cents at "The Showdown"
Make sure you bring ALL your stars
And when you lose,guaranteed, you will use a Fleet enema to clean yourself out O.K.
I built this set because I couldn't afford better, and frankly didn't want to. I like Indians, but not enough to shell out the bucks to go higher grades and red coins. My 50 pc commem set is my pride and joy.
By the way, the 1877 is purchased, but I have two more months of payments at Heritage on it. Can't wait to complete the set!
Morgan Gibbs
Collecting modern and vintage commems, indian cents, and modern type.
Stockton
Works on Copper too!!!!!!! Only $25, and just think of the return when you sell those monsters!!!!
OK, enough with the jokes.
Toning is a marketing strategy. It's the only time damage to a coin actually "adds" value.
I couldn't agree more. I take the registry with a grain of salt for the reasons explained very well here by a collector who's opinions I've come to value. The registry will always be a collection of labels from a service we may trust more than any other, but that's not saying much. I'll take a specialist in a specific series over a 9 to 5 grader any day, and give him the advantage of describing a coin rather than just posting a grade on a label. Under the limited conditions a market value weighting system is about as good as it will get.
Why am I not surprised Stewart is a sculpture?
I agree with you completely on the eye appeal issue. I don't even have my most prized collection slabbed, and if anyone wanted to meet and compare 1878 Morgan varieties (no plastic necessary), I would cleave their bosom. There are two sets that would challenge mine that I know of, but there is no way to know who's is the best unless they are looked at in person.
Therefore, I think a showdown of the top sets will not only be fun and informative, but decisive.
Thanks for the reply - glad I got someones attention with my provacative comments! That was the intent.
I agree - there were some impressive prices realized. That doesn't always mean the coins were worth it. For example, I flew to LA, paid hotel, meal and rental car expenses and wasn't about to go home skunked, without a coin. That is why a certain late date MS66R went for twice Pink Sheet price! I knew of at least one other collector that did the same. Will I ever recoup my money - I doubt it. Was the coin that great - no.
With regards to the comments in Longacres Ledger by the editor (Rick Snow), whose knowledge I respect and admire dearly, what else would you expect him to say about Photo Sealed coins??
The toughest gem red IHC's to find are the years 1866-73, 1877 and 1886 (both types). I consider these tough dates the heart and soul of any IHC collection. Condition rarities are another matter. These really tough dates are what my comments referred to. For example, consider these prices realized:
Hammer Pink Sheet
Lot 5071 1866 65R-PCGS 7475 12,500
5076 1866 65R-PCGS 10,925 12,500
5078 1873 65R-PCGS 5750 12,500
5079 1873 65R-PCGS 5750 12,500
5083 1877 65R-NGC 18,400 27,500
5140 1866 65R NGC 5175 12,500
5141 1867 65R NGC 5463 12,500
5147 1871 65R NGC 5290 15,000
5148 1872 65R NGC 18,400 30,000
5150 1873 65R NGC 4140 12,500
5152 1873 S1 23,000 60,000
5156 1877 65R NGC 14,950 27,500
I think you get the idea. The quality of the core coins (in my opinion) just wasn't there. Had a properly graded 1877 been available, I would have paid over Pink Sheet to get it. (Stewart, if your reading, can I buy yours!!) The same for a 1867 or 1868. As I review my notes from the auction, a theme becomes apparent...weak strike...fly specks...finger print....overgraded....missing denticles...gash on cheek....different colors obv. vs rev....blotchy....dull...unnatural tone...etc. This from registry sets!
Anyway, the above is only opinion. If you bought a coin from one of these sets and love it, great! There were some I would have loved to add to my collection too but thought the price too much. Conversly, I'm sure I have coins you would think are dogs. In collecting, it's the subjectivity and difference in opinions that's half the fun, isn't it?!
>>>>>>I WILL PUT MY NGC eyes, my MY STARS against yours and win everytime>>>>>>>>
i doubt it .....but i kinda like over confident dweebs......after i spank em around a few times they sorta get stunned... and get that shell shocked look in their eyes....but remember talk is cheap and whiskey costs money...so bring it on!!!!!
>>>>>>you don"t know squat about copper >>>>>>
cant figure what gave you that idea.....i never said a thing...i think your suffering from an inferiority complex....there is no other explanation for your comment!!!now relax ....look deep into your soul and ask yourself why you said what you said.....people often lash out like you did when they suffer from an inferiority complex.....there are varying degrees of it so take a deep breath...tell yourself "im ok"....and you might feel better
>>>>>>>>>Nor do you know Jack Sch--- about my coins>>>>
oh stew.....your right i dont....and i couldnt care less.....your so defensive.......everyone knows the best copper is owned by my good friend dr. tom.......he even has dr. al beat so dont feel like the lone ranger......dr tom told me he would sell you some of his dups if you were nice......that way you could upgrade ......but his `77 red is going to me for my type set.....a lock 68 red and by far the finest so you wont be getting that one....sorry!!! i gotta tell ya you copper guys are strange......ask 100 people off the street which is better looking a monster red or monster red/brown....and all 90% will say the red/brown.......in fact monster browns would also get the nod from the 100......yet you pay multiples for reds over red/browns..and its worse for monster browns.....go figure!!!!i am sure you are aware that copper is the only series like that!!!
so now i have figured you out!!!!! :-) ...go see your shrink
gregg
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
so now i have you figured out !!!! ) - go see your shrink
everyone knows dr. tom has the best copper - dr.tom t mr. 1794
his 77' red is the best there is - a lock 68 red
talk is cheap and whiskey cost money
since his 77'red is the best there is and it is going to you
If i'm nice I can get his dupes - your generosity overwhelms me
I will put my 1877 "golden princess" PCGS ms 66 red
vs
his 77'red a lock 68 red but its yours Gregg
How much is the bet ?
are you afraid or do you accept the challenge ?
stewart
The auction prices realized for Indians vs. Pink Sheet is very interesting indeed. I do not follow the series that closely. Is it the case that those key coins were simply "weak"? Has the grading scale changed over the years such that MS65RD pieces no longer look nice enough to buy at those prices? What caused those Indian prices to be so low? Is the Indian market so thinly traded that basically no one needed the average quality stuff?
On the Proof side of the Indians I saw there was a PCGS-PR68 Indian that brought under $20k? It was cameo, making it pop 1/0 in PCGS-PR68CAM for the entire series. Why were no Indian collectors playing seriously on that coin, such that a dealer had to win it "for a song"? Anyone want to take a shot at this one?
Wondercoin.
Wondercoin
We need you to enter the Indian cent market !!!!!!
The dates from 1866-1873 are the toughest dates.To find REAL coins of these dates properly graded ms 66 red are rare
All dates properly graded ms 66 RED are extremely saleable as prices have at least doubled for all dates in the past year
Are you coming to the Showdown ?
Stewart
You betcha!
By the way, I instantly wrote you back on that coin you found for me last week, but maybe you do not get return PM's?
Wondercoin.
Wondercoin -- You got it right the first time with "are these coins simply weak?". IHs have as diverse a range of quality within the gem grades as any series. The often suspect RD attribution muddles the prices realized even more, particulary in the late 1860s though mid 70s coins. The fact that Rick Snow's photoseal has become an accepted grade confirmation in the market bears that out. If you look at his population of photosealed coins vs. the PCGS & NGC pops you get an idea of how many low end IHs exist in gem holders.
I think Monsterman's statement about RBs being chosen over RDs for eye appeal applies to the huge number of below average RD coins that recycle through the market. Their problems are more obvious than on RBs. I can't imagine anyone not choosing a shimmering, blast RD true gem -- the problem is finding them.
I do have a couple of the Elkin coins which I am happy with. Are they perfect? No, they are copper and there is not much perfect around in the way of copper. My gem collection is still in the early stages and I haven't yet grappled with trying to find the keys.
Ira Stein has a decent PCGS MS65RD for sale now on ebay, but you probably know that.
Morgan Gibbs, I like you RB collection. Vernon Sebby has had a series of articles in Longacre's Ledger about light RB IHC's and their scarcity.
If anyone has the following, I would be interested. Gem red, MS65R or better. natural toned, spot free, lustrous IHC coins dates 1867, 68, 77 or 86 (ty1). Let me know.
If anyone needs the following, let me know.
1858/7 EDS PCGS 63 Looks like the one at Eagle Eye but w/o the planchet defects on the obv.
1864 no L P66 Heathgate - pic at Eagle Eye
1875 P65R Penn Collection - Bowers
What did people think of the 1864 L P64R that sold for 138K. When that was shipped to me originally (insured by Bowers for 30K!), it was uncertified and said to have "questionable toning". It looked like the cover coin on Bowers book, a beautiful pink. It now is a much deeper red. Significance?? If anyone else noticed, let me know.
Re: the 1877 currently on ebay, email me at Larsontlmm@msn.com if you want my opinion. I would rather not comment on current auctions "on line".
Lakesammen
I was at the Bowers and Merena auction of the Pennsylvania estate when the coin sold for $60,000 to Ron Itskowitz actring as an agent for alex highland
I was at the auction where the same coin in the exact same holder brought $138,000. Rick Snow was the underbidder !!!!! It sold to a dealer and I believe it is now being sold to a collector.
The coin did not change color
If you ever submit RAW coins to PCGS,you must know how paranoid they are about copper.There are numerous times a coin doesn't get graded the first time....but it could the second or third time into the grading service. PATIENCE
Unless you own or have for sale another OR a better Proof 1864 "L",I think it is in bad taste to bash a coin,in a series that I collect and you collect and has the reputation as the most expensive small cent sold at auction
Stewart
Stew....did you buy the aluminum 1871 IHC from wondercoin or just the icon?
I will repeat my earlier post which appears to have been lost........are you guys up for a repeat battle of the Indian Head cents in Baltimore?
Frankly, I can't go to Long Beach. I have to be with my Dad that week in Florida. He is not doing well.
i love you man!!!!! i got you going didnt i :-)
i`ll see you in lb and i cant wait to see your monsters!
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Oreville - I can't state what PCGS will do and will not do.They are laying out funds for the "Showdown" that I instigated.I was told that they want to get all the feedback after the event before they commit to another Showdown.I'm told that so far there is a giant buzz going on in the coin industry about this event.
No, I did not buy the !871 aluminum pattern.I believe Mitch owns it . I just borrowed the icon.I collect 1858 patterns.
By the way, I challenged Doug Wright (aka White Fang) to a "Showdown" 1936-1958 Lincoln cent proofs and he accepted.I can't do anything as it is in the court of PCGS
Gregg - I luv ya too!!!!!! got to have fun and create a little excitement.........I'm also doing my thing about promoting the "Shoedown"
Stewart
Well. imagine my surprise to see you with the icon of the coin. I like to keep track of the whereabouts of many patterns and coins since.......well that is what we are supposed to do?
So I have to start a buzzard .......eer.........buzz for PART II of the indian head cent showdown in Baltimore in which monsterman has to tackle both you and one of your sculptures for a double tackle while Ally/Joshua just laughs in the background?
Hmmmm, I don't even own one slabbed mint state Indian head cent. Mine are still all raw but all low end. But when I do get one I do want just one superb gem BU (in 67 red or better). But just one.
Oreville: Correction - "I know Mitch OWNS it".
I would consider trading it though for Stewart's 1877 Indian in MS66RD - you know, the purty one. My coin is 6 years older and they only struck 1 or 2 examples. That 1877 Indian has 100,000's of examples. But, I would consider an even up trade if Stewart is interested.
Now, don't laugh too hard - I get the same reaction (and offers) from COLLECTORS all the time when I ask them to part with their "crown jewels"
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
I was going to say your 86 Type 2 is listed in the wrong slot, but then I remembered it was graded before PCGS attributed these so the cert# groups it with the Type 1s. At one time I listed your T2 as ex Epstein since I assumed only one had ever been graded 66RD (and the pops are no help due to the fact I just mentioned). Ira D. corrected me, and says he owns the Epstein Type 2 as it fits in with all the other Epstein cert #'s as far as sequence goes. They were all regraded at the same time and have numbers that start with 9949 like your 1873 cl3 67RD, which no doubt is the Epstein coin. You and Ira need to compare them someday, preferably while I'm there!
Tim,Ira D. and Paul(Shylock)
I would love to see a showdown between Tim"s 86 ty 2 and Ira's 86 ty 2 at Long Beach.Can you arrange it Tim ? I know Rick is out of town for the next two weeks.
Stewart
I hate to admit I was relying on a off the cuff comment on the 1886 Ty2 by Rick and made no further effort to verify. I will remove the designation until it's clarified.
I'm writing PCGS to get them to recognize the 1886 as a type 2. I don't know if they'll rely on catalog descriptions and photographs w/o having the coin. I would prefer the coin stay in the old holder. I should hear from them next week, after the holiday.
A 1886 showdown might be fun, if the logistics can be worked out. Has Ira responded??
Lakesamman - Do you have Ira's phone numbers ? Are you coming to Long Beach for the "Showdown? Carry your 86 ty 2 in your pocket
I believe Shylock,Rick and myself have Ira's phone numbers We'll just tell Ira to bring his 86 ty 2.
Nice complete varieties set !!!!!!! Do you have a 65 plain 5 and a 67/67 ? Have you e-mailed dh@collectors.com to tell him to recognize these two varieties. Have you heard about the 88/7 in full red ?
Stewart
An 1888/7 in full red??
I've emailed the PCGS folks. Paul sent a request for all the Fly-In members to do the same. I don't know why the 67/67 was considered a important variety in the old scheme of things (listed with the old registry but not counted). In the Steve/Flynn book it rates low so perhaps that's why it was dropped. It seems all the red book varieties should have been included.
The 67/67 I bought from Rick is said to be the "finest" but I don't really know - he may have said it to get me to buy it! It's a 64R. Once I complete the "top 19" I'm going to stop on the varieties (the 20th, the 1888/7 S2, I don't think is a overdate, so I don't plan on buying it).
Anyway, enough rambling....sure would like to know if anyone has that red 1888/7!
PS - Paul...is druel anything like drool??
In Bower's book he has a commentary by Sam Lukes in 1993 regarding the 1888/7 65RD Snow listed in his original registry of 13 known examples: "The coin, though raw, was fully red and original and graded MS65RD by that particular dealer, who was asking $50,000. I declined at that level and was informed within a year that the coin was privately sold for $43,000".
Any comments are appreciated.
I feel the critical time is when a copper is removed from its holder or slab and exposed to an extreme environment (humidity, poor handling etc...). If well cared for in a stable, protected resting place I can't see why a copper that stayed RD over 100 years, including an era when protection wasn't very sophisticated, wouldn't stay red for another century in a sealed slab. My guess is all the true RD slabbed coppers that have "turned" while in one owner's possession either weren't handled well or played with prior to slabbing.
As for spending a little for added hi-tech protection, I believe in overkill. The number of silica cannisters I own is ridiculous, but for a few bucks apiece they're worth the piece of mind. In a humid region like Long Island they turn pink pretty fast.
Toothpuller
The first good thing about a copper coin in a PCGS holder is that their guarantee covers the color of copper.By giving this guarantee,they leave themselves very vulnerable.......so
1) Do not keep copper anywhere near the ocean such as Florida or eastern long island
2) Do not keep copper in a kitchen
3) Do not keep copper in direct sunlight
If a copper coin has a funny color or looks too good,DON't buy it as high quality Indian heads are scarce and sell for sometimes high premiums.Indian heads have become vulnerable to the many coin doctors and unfortunately some of these coins get into holders.Some of these doctors are very good or should I say coin restorers.
NCS is suppose to RESTORE copper but I don't know anyone who has used their service successfully. I believe there is a thread which deals with people waiting for results or whether NCS will even work on their coins.Unfortunately NCS does not have a menu.
I only had one coin change in the holder.The luster went from being a blazer to being subdued and flat.
I would suggest buying green label holders as these coin are most likely stabile as they have been slabbed more than three years ago.
Stay away from red brown coins in red holders
Stewart
I have a roll of 1969 pennies I acquired as a kid. They were stuck in a plastic tube and ignored for 32 years while living in Minn. and the NW w/o any particular care. They are still red, so copper will stay red for prolonged periods of time.
The reason I even mention them is that they are acting as my "canary". I keep them unprotected with my IHC's. If I see anything happening to them, I worry about what's happening to my IHC's. I take these additional measures.
1. Keep a dessicant nearby to keep the humidity down (not just in the room - keep it in the safety deposit box (or wherever you keep them. Speaking of banks, rent only the higher boxes as the lower ones could be flooded if the sprinkler goes off.
2. Put the holders in the Intercept Shield little boxes, then 10-at-a-time in the bigger boxes - double protection.
3. I pack "copper wool" (sold at marine stores) around the boxes, changing it yearly at a minimum. If there is anything bad in the environment, it will react with that first (large surface area of copper).
It probably seems excessive but, if your paying big bucks for a coin who's primary attribute is being original red, I think it's worth it.
The notion of buying the old green holders was one that had dawned on me as those coins indeed have some proven recent stability. Currently I am trying to avoid the recently graded coins with the bar coins back on the front of the holder.
Paul had a good thread a while back tracing a coin from a 64RB holder into a 65RD holder [I think that was the history] that I found very scary. Obviously a good coin doctor was at work who fooled PCGS.
As for PCGS's color guarantee, I don't know how much import to place in it. Without rehashing some old threads, Collectors Universe stock is in the dumper and their cash reserves are somewhat low. There is at least some question about the company's long term viability. PCGS is not the problem, but they are being dragged down by some of the unprofitable divisions. Mike is more knowledgable here if anyone has questions.