Do NGC/PCGS actually net grade coins for...?

toyonakataro

I had a half dime in ANACS holder(MS62) and I thought it was obviously undergraded.
I brought it to a show and asked a dealer(I call him Mr.X) to submit the coin to NGC for cross over(at MS60 or above)
According to Mr.X's opinion, it was AT, but I took a chance.
Now, the coin is in NGC holder, but it's down graded to MS61.
Well, I know you can't grade this tiny coin through the pic, but as for the surface, this coin is by no means MS61.
Marks on the surface are minimum, and lots of luster remains. Looks much better than most of 64s I have.
I have no complaint to NGC, but I want to know why they give only 61 to this coin(they didn't even give a star)
I e-mailed Mr.X about this and his opinion is the most possible reason is NGC did net grade this coin for questionable toning.
I know NGC/PCGS body bag AT coins, but do they actually net grade coins for questionable toning?

TheNumish

I don't think PCGS or NGC will grade a coin if they think they are AT. They have graded AT coins but not on purpose. Sometimes on coins that have toning like that if the coin is technically AU they will give it an MS grade. I don't think your coin is AU. It certainly looks like a tricky coin to grade and does look undergraded. Sometiimes they grade ones like that and sometimes they don't. I don't think PCGS would. Pretty cool coin. Must have been in an album for a long time. Thanks for sharing it.

Steve27

I agree, no net grading for "questionable toning;" you just get a body-bag.

RotatedRainbows

I have no complaint to NGC, but I want to know why they give only 61 to this coin(they didn't even give a star)

They will not give a star to any coin grading below MS63 regardless of how it looks.

EVillageProwler

One possible reason for the supposed low grade on your specimen is that it may have been really hard for the graders to grade through the ANACS holder. Your Mr. X certainly got a better look at the coin than I did, but I can't understand why he thinks it's A/T. There are plenty of silver coins with that kind of deep peripheral toning.

EVP

coinguy1

EVP, even if it was hard for NGC to grade the coin while in the ANACS holder, they could certainly get a good look at it once it was removed from that holder (which it had to have been, in order for them to grade it/cross it.


I believe that both NGC and PCGS do grade coins about which they have a question regarding color (because let's face it - they can't always KNOW and often have to make highly educated guesses - if they aren't sure, they just grade the coin lower than they otherwise would and thereby play it safe. I base this on my observations of a number of coins which appear to be graded lower than they should be and the only reasonable explanation is that the color is somewhat questionable. Ditto for coins which have been lightly cleaned or altered - they still grade them but take the problems into account to arrive at a net grade.

By the way, I am dealer x that Taro mentioned. I asked him not to mention my name and he was nice enough to abide by my wishes (thank you Taro). But, I decided to go on record. The coin in question is way too nice to be a 61. Questionable color is the only reasonable explanation for the low grade.

shirohniichan

I believe that both NGC and PCGS do grade coins about which they have a question regarding color (because let's face it - they can't always KNOW and often have to make highly educated guesses - if they aren't sure, they just grade the coin lower than they otherwise would and thereby play it safe. I base this on my observations of a number of coins which appear to be graded lower than they should be and the only reasonable explanation is that the color is somewhat questionable. Ditto for coins which have been lightly cleaned or altered - they still grade them but take the problems into account to arrive at a net grade.

That makes sense. Some years back I bought a 20 cent pieces in an NGC MS-61 holder that I thought looked lightly cleaned on the obverse. When I told the seller (a big dealer who is highly regarded on this board), he said if it's in an NGC slab it can't have been cleaned. Now that I know better I think he's wrong. I haven't looked at the coin in a long time, but it may be an MS-63 with a lightly cleaned obverse.

BigD5

My first guess on Taro's coin would have been that it has been cleaned, and the signs of the cleaning are tough to see through the toning. Since Coinguy is qualified, and has seen the coin up close and personal, and believes the coin is too nice for a 61, then the only explanation would be that ngc believed the coin was AT, or possibly AT?, and hence downgraded the coin. I would never have believed that situation would present itself, to be quite honest. I would think questionable color would be bagged, before slabbed and beat up with the numerical grade, which happens quite often in similar cases to what Shiro described. I will say though, a coin with color like that will stand on it's own, regardless of the numerical grade. There's no hairlines on that coin, for sure, correct???

Trime

Mark (Coinguy),
Lets use this as a learning excercise.
What are the appropriate options that Taro has available? How can he get a get a re-evaluation or clarification on the grade from NGC?
Knowing your experience in grading I will accept that you could see through the toning and were comfortable with the usual hairlines and marks (impossible for us to tell from the scan). I suspect although not stated that you are not certain that the toning occurred the slow way.

matteproof

Hi toyonakataro. I love your half dime. It looks great. The coin is a no doubt UNC. It is not AU at all. Can't really tell by the image if it is worthy of a higher grade than ms61, though it looks better than ms61 in the photo.

The "thigh" looks even (no hits or ticks) which is a plus. The photo seems to reveal, what appears to be, a very minor "hit" on the lower leg (Liberty's left leg as you look at her, but actually her right leg). At first blush, the Anacs ms62 grade seems more accurate to me than the NGC ms61. However, it's very difficult to tell by a scan or photo. Lighting can change everthing.

Can't really tell with the color from the photo. But if they slabbed it twice (once Anacs, once NGC), you've got some juice going for you regardless. Last time I looked, it was NGC's policy to not grade AT. Anacs usually would "net grade" AT.

All in all - I think the coin is terrific. You have a GREAT eye for half dimes toyonkataro! Keep up the GREAT work.

matteproof

IrishMike

Easy solution go over to the NGC forum post the picture on ask NGC, they will react to the post. Maybe even the folks who graded it.

IrishMike

I just went across the street and asked them, they look in here once in awhile. Let's see what happens.

Placid

I think I remeber reading somewhere than NGC does not put the star on a coin that grades less than ms63. No idea why but probably the reason.

Is that a small scratch on the reverse from the bottom of the A to the middle of the M?

toyonakataro

Thanks for many opinions and thank you Mark for revealing your name.
Everyone knows who you are and I always appreciate your comments.

EVP-The coin looks lighter in person and the electric blue peripherial toning on revers suddenly change into silver color towards center. When I first saw this coin in person, I thought the reverse toning was a bit odd.

BigD5-NO hairlines. I examined this coin again and again, but couldn't find the sign of cleaning.

Trime-I have no complain to NGC, just wanted to know why it's only 61. So no regrade.

matteproof-no hit on the leg in person. There's some minor chatter on obverse field and a very very light scratch on reverse. I got it from Heritage a few months ago. By the way, NGC has started half dime set in their registry. Do you have any idea to register your half dimes? I'm interested in your collection. Your 1858 inverted date was very nice!

IrishMike- Thank you!! I'll check it later.



<< <i>They will not give a star to any coin grading below MS63 regardless of how it looks. >>


Looks like I have revealed my ignorance again

Placid

I think since you confirm the scratch that would probably be the reason for the downgrade or lowgrade.
I got a barber dime back from anacs this week with a small scratch like that and got the net-scratched label for it.

matteproof

<< <i>...By the way, NGC has started half dime set in their registry. Do you have any idea to register your half dimes? I'm interested in your collection. Your 1858 inverted date was very nice! >>



Hi toyonkataro! Thank you for the heads up on the NGC half dime registry. I will definitely check it out. I did not know they had one. I'm glad you liked the 1858 inverted date too. I'm always on the lookout for Key date Half dimes, or ones with monster eye appeal. I'm sure glad to know another numismatist such as yourself, who appreciates the fantastic opportunities that exist in the Half Dime Series (Early, Bust, Seated). They are popular, but they have not scratched the surface yet.

matteproof

coinguy1

Hi Trime,

Practically speaking, the only thing Taro could do would be to send the coin to NGC for regrading and ask for an explanation as to why the coin only grades 61. The major grading services do not typically provide such information (in their defense, it could be quite time consuming), but perhaps NGC would do so in this case.

toyonakataro

Placid
"Scratch" on the reverse is very fine that you can't detect it until you tilt it certain angle and look it under loupe. I've seen some 64s with such scratches. Only if I could provide a better pic...sorry about that.
I still believe the coin is undergraded at least by 2 points, but the best way to prove it is ask a knowledgeable dealer/collector for an opinion on this coin. I wish Mark were in the same town
matterproof
That 1858 inverted date is one of the most beautiful half dime I have ever seen!!
I hope I could find one like yours someday(date doesn't matter in this case)