<< An NGC MS68* is like an MS68 1/2 because it's not an NGC 68 and not an NGC 69. Now if an NGC MS68 is equivalent to a PCGS MS67 and since PCGS does not have the star would it still be a PCGS MS67? >>
You know, you might very well be right. And if that's the case, people ought to be cracking out their high-end PCGS 67 coins with exceptional eye appeal, and getting them slabbed as NGC 68*s. Hey look, free money!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
All pricing, dealers, sellers not an issue. What is wrong with the grading service stating " It is a technical MS6X, we also think it has great "eye appeal"? Isn't that what we send them in for , an opinion?
Or are coins being sent in to see where they lie in the "pricing scale"?
Regarding the 2 Ikes posted Where's the $800 difference? The $925 model don't have scratches on the slab and has more small ticks on the face than the $175 Ike does.
So whats the difference between these 2 Ikes? I read a bunch of yackity yack yack. Nobody sees $800 worth of difference do they?
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
As Americans I thought we disliked our government meddling into our lives. Do we really need someone to tell us what coins have eye appeal? I don't need someone cheating me out of the search and hunt for PQ coins. Again, the tables have been turned and the wool has been pulled over the eyes of the collectors.
And now for a positive view, I believe the star program should be used to show that a coin has eye appeal or that the coin is brilliant white or prooflike or perhaps has an EDS strike......
Back to the downside. When a coin was given a grade of MS66 we said 'Wow what a great coin with great eye appeal. Then when the MS67 grade became popular, we expected that a MS67 coin to have that great eye appeal. Then some MS68's come along and we expected the same, coins graded with super eye appeal. But now we're told that we need our coins designated with a star to show that a coin has super-duper eye appeal. Please.....give me a break!
Why don't they just give the coins a grade point or two extra like in the PCGS registry..... sure, they're already doing that.
NGC is a business and they need to regenerate their market. So instead of beating a dead dog with this thing perhaps we should come up with ideas for a symbol equivalent to NGC's star designation so PCGS can keep up with the Jones.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
When certain coins bring 50X for the next grade up, 5X for the right coin is not unusual at all. There was an MS64 1886-O dollar a while back that brought $20K plus in auction - or 5X what a normal MS64 is worth. The coin had no chance of EVER being an MS65, but it was the absolute finest MS64 there ever could be - superb eye appeal for a date known to be blah. Gee - could that be shorthand summarized with a symbol? Maybe a * ? And the marketplace showed the coin to be worth 5X the normal price. Will wonders never cease!
I'm sorry to say but both those coins look worst (ding wise) than my (74)PCGS67's and no where near the 68's(72S's). In my book it's PCGS for the Ike series, from the few dozen I've seen.
Here are three NGC * coins that just sold at auction. Did the bidders run them up to insane prices? I have no idea because I am not familar with any of them but if not then I would guess that the * is not really a super price inflator (at least yet).
To chime in as an Ike enthusiast -- I would be shocked if either of the NGC * Ikes mentioned would warrant that kind of price.
In particular, the coin in the auction listing does not appear to have exceptional eye appeal beyond the grade, it has the typical flat luster grainy look often found in this date. A nice coin, but not $925 nice.
I haven't seen Tomaska's coin, maybe it's a monster. However, I wouldn't assume from the price that it warrants it. He's a great marketer and has done much to advance the collecting of cameo proofs, but he's not an Ike specialist. If he can get $1500 for it I should start consigning through him -- my customers would laugh at me if I asked that price.
On the other hand... you can make the same argument about absurd valuation with many PCGS coins. If you could get that same coin in a PCGS MS69 holder you've got a $5000 coin, even if it's not noticably nicer than a premium MS68.
My main beef with the * is that we already have enough confusion in grading. And somehow it seems more absurd to me than assigning a numerical grade, especially if it's supposed to denote eye appeal. I mean, are you going to look at a coin and say, sure it looks beautiful, but since it's not in a * holder I can't pay a premium? Or conversely, it doesn't look that great to me, but NGC says it has superior eye appeal, so ok?
With Ikes, I guess I'm not going to worry about it unless the NGC * coins really do command that kind of money. There's a big difference between asking price and realized price.
There are a lot of PCGS rah-rah's complaining about the prices asked for NGC * coins, and these people sound an awful lot like the PCGS poo-poo's who complain about the high prices asked of coins that otherwise would be quite inexpensive if they weren't in PCGS holders.
In strict technical terms, there's nothing wrong with the NGC * program. I don't much care for it, but it may benefit other collectors.
But, if the market will pay stupid money just because it's a super-grade PCGS modern, then the market can pay stupid money for an NGC * coin. Those who don't like this situation will just have to deal with it, or find the time to LOOK AT THE COIN INSTEAD OF THE HOLDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey thanks for the reply WWBillman! I know it was a hard question, Supercoin is the Ike expert and he didn't even try to point out $800 worth of difference. I kinda thought the * coin was a little more shiny but the excess ticks was kinda a trade-off. Makes them about even if you ask me. So the $800 * sign is what matters. Nobody else minds extra ticks in the prime area of a MS68? Hmmm...interesting.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
The problem isn't the NGC star or the dealers it's us dumb collectors! We buy numbers on plastic, stars and grading service initials instead of what's really important.
IT'S THE COIN STUPID!
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I have several NGC * coins... mainly MS67 Roosevelts and MS Franklins. Would I pay the kind of money being asked in the referenced add for the * IKEs? Certainly not... the difference in ask prices are extreme, but you know what, I think the difference in price for a NGC/PCGS 1976 Silver MS 68 IKE is extreme too.
I have a VERY NICE 76 Silver IKE in an NGC holder that I paid less than half what it would have cost had it been in a PCGS holder. I made the choice to find a nice coin in an NGC holder, because I feel the price of the same coin in a PCGS holder is excessive... the purchase of a * coin is no different. I/we (collectors) need to decide what is excessive and what is not.
That said, I am VERY HAPPY with each and every * coin that I have purchased, and all have been only at a modest premium over typical coins for the grade. A dealer or individual can ASK and $ amount they want for a coin... we (the collectors) need to maintain OUR sanity and not jump at excess hype and pay crazy $$ for coins that we would not otherwise.
Agree or disagree with NGC's use of the *, it is the sellers of these coins that will take advantage of the policy in an attempt to bring in extra $$, not NGC. I just see the * as an additional tool for me to use when comparing coins of like grade/type.
a ngc *coin should bring a higher price then a non star ngc coin. but how much more! i have a few ngc star franklins and they are xtra sharp coins and far nicer then a coin of the same grade that does not have a star. also i heard that ngc does not put a w on their holder any more ,it was replaced by the star, dont know if thats true or not.
On the flip side... buyers can always purchase an "eye apeal" coin that was slabbed before the star program, turn around, have it regraded with the star and then swing a profit. It just seems to me that people who have had their coins graded prior to the star program will feel inclined to have the coins regraded, thus bringing in more money for NGC. Plus PCGS slabs might be sent to NGC to have them regraded thus bringing in more money to NGC.
As a Marketing Ploy... it seems to me if people believe they can get more money with the star and they send their coins to NGC, it's a good marketing ploy for NGC.
I also thought "Eye Appeal" was calculated into the grade of the coin. The Coin could be an MS66 but because it had great "Eye Appeal" it might be graded an MS67.
"What do you think is going to happen to the value of NGC coins without stars, nobody will want them!"
Depends on whether you're a collector plastic, initials and stars or COINS!
Unfortunately a certain amount of demand IS for plastic, initials and stars. Changes in that demand as a result of changes to the plastic, initials and stars might have a trickle down affect on the market in general. How much of an affect? I don't know but you would think that as the prices of coins increase the buyers become more serious about doing their homework with respect to THE COIN.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think over time these services are just going to burn people out altogether, the changing format will make sure of that! They better save their money!
You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
Dog, I agree with you 100%...I don't think either of the Ikes are solid 68s, star or no star.
This is just another example of the grading services catering to the people who can't grade coins for s**t. Here you go , this coin is a 68, but this one is a really nice 68 thats why its so much more money.
If you ever want to have some fun, take some PQ 64 Morgan Dollars, put 'em in a Dansco Album and mosey over to the next coin show that is in your area. Most dealers will try to "rip" 'em from you, but you will be able to tell that they think they have hit the jackpot. MOST dealers have frogotten how to grade.
Funny that the people fussin' the most wouldn't buy an NGC coin if their life depended on it.
Probably because they are starting to realize the high premiums they paid for their PCGS coins will not exist when it comes time to sell, but they can't say they weren't warned before hand. I am just glad I collect coins instead of plastic, it is so much more fun.
Bills predictions, and please don’t jump in here defending the true rarities that reside in NGC slabs. This applies to the overall general market and on average collectors.
The NGC stars might start selling at the same level as equally graded PCGS coins.
The NGC non-star coins will continue to sell at a discount and will get even harder to sell and probably fall even further down the price scale due to the lack of the star. Collectors will naturally draw the conclusion that, no star means low end for the grade and is over graded by PCGS standards.
The NGC registry people can now chase the Star and pay ungodly premiums for low pop star coins (sounds familiar don't it, PCGS guys chasing low pop high grade coins) and PCGS fans will then be able to poke fun at the stupid people buying low pop NGC * slabs for astronomical prices.
Most (NOT ALL) of the star coins will probably not have a great noticeable difference between them and their non-star counterparts or most of the coins of the same grade but in PCGS slabs (again sounds familiar, that is all the PCGS guys hear concerning the different high grades 67/68 common coins)
Collectors will all disagree on whether a coin was deserving of the star, which will perpetuate the “You are stupid, buy the coin not the slab” non-sense.
The crack out kings are now breathing new signs of life.
Dealers are now breathing new signs of life.
NGC profits and market shares grow.
Collectors end up paying the price AGAIN.
All this because 3 people in a room think a coin has eye appeal…………
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Wow! Looks like the NGC * coins do carry added value. I know the * coins I own are definately very nice for the grade with exceptional eye appeal. Do I detect a bit of jealousy and possibly "foot in mouth" from the * bashers for openly eschewing the expert opinions of some of the best graders in the business. If one of the major graders told me that a particular coin had exceptional eye appeal, I would thank him profusely and definately give that coin more than the once over. I'd like to think that I'm pretty proficient when it comes to grading the series of coins I collect most, but if an "expert" grader wants to give me a "tip" I would never be so stubborn and stupid(a wicked and deadly combination) to discount that information and basically say "don't you dare tell me how to grade and what has eye appeal or not". That is a totally stubborn and stupid attitude. That kind of attitude is dangerous. If anyone thinks that a professional grader from either NGC or PCGS can't possibly give you any expert advice(ie.*) then maybe they should apply for a grading job with them. I, for one, welcome these "opinions" with an open mind but will still not be so naive to the point that I would blindly buy solely based on that opinion. Nobody is forcing you to buy any coin. That's entirely an individual decision. For those of you who openly or privately distain NGCs * designation, I say wonderful, that just leaves more for me and others. I'll make you a deal. If you won't belittle my coin preferences and buying decisions, I won't belittle yours. To each his own, live and let live, different strokes for different folks, etc. Thanks for allowing my 2cents.
<< <i>When certain coins bring 50X for the next grade up, 5X for the right coin is not unusual at all. >>
Key word "certain" now we can expand that to include all common or better date and type coins.
So now collectors can pay 5X retail for a NGC star slab and that is ok.
What’s even better is I can find the same coins in PCGS slabs with equivalent or better eye appeal and since they do not play the Star game only pay max 10% - 20% over retail or better.
Who’s the real winner?
AND NO I am not talking about the monster toned or the true rarities in the hobby you always seem to use as an example. The average collectors are not buying $20,000.00 + coins. For the most part the coins that will provide 100% of the gouging will be the common to better dates within the different series and type coins. The ones that trade regularly between your average collectors and dealers. Think outside of your box
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Can nobody not take everything so da*n personal? I have never bashed NGC; I have never bashed anyone that buys NGC coins (heII even I have bought a few in the past). All I have ever said is "I do not agree with the Star program" and stated many reasons why I do not.
But no I am labeled a PCGS rah rah and told I am jealous and afraid ect ect ect.
Forget all that $hit and debate the topic.
Bill
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
This is just another example of the grading services catering to the people who can't grade coins for s**t. Here you go , this coin is a 68, but this one is a really nice 68 thats why its so much more money.
Just so there's no confusion... NGC is only doing the grading. You can agree with the grade or not, and you can agree with the * policy or not. But, let's be clear: NGC is NOT pricing these coins. The dealers are, and these dealers have no collusive activity going on with NGC.
The way the above bold text was written could've been misconstrued as yet another CU-esque collusive scheme of creating their own widgets (PCGS), pricing their own widgets (the CU price index) and retailing their own widgets(DHRC).
EVP
PS Please note that I'm not saying the ask price for the * coins are out of bounds for the market. I don't know, and I don't care (because I don't dabble in this stuff). All I'm saying is that NGC (or CS) has nothing to do with the pricing.
So now collectors can pay 5X retail for a NGC star slab and that is ok.
No - some specialists pay what a premium quality coin is worth to THEM ... I just drew an example from a popular series. A coin is worth what it's worth. It's pretty shortsighted to say a coin will cost 5X retail. What is retail? Do you honestly think you can buy a PCGS undergrade for retail? Does any specialist pay retail for an overgrade? Retail is the price you can typically buy a coin of a certain quality.... be that same quality coin a PCGS64, NGC64*, NGC65 or ACG70. It doesn't matter what's on the label - the quality of the individual coin dictates the price. Is a super nice coin, that in the next grade up sells for $5K, worth $1500 when a basal quality piece for that grade is worth only $100? How the heck should I know - it depends on the coin! I do know that nobody ever offers a dealer MORE than he's got it listed for, so he's better off starting a bit high before the chisel comes (there's another bourse floor term!).
Not necessarily true. I offered an NGC Proof 65 walker to dealer David Carr several months back and quoted a price of $350. He told me he paid $450 for those and that was that. I got $450. I failed to realize that the market had moved so much in a few short months and priced the coin before looking at a greysheet or bluesheet. Dumb mistake. David didn't take advantage of me. I know that most others would have!
now for me i understand you buy the coin not the holder
but i love the star
wwbillman i understand your point for modern coins like ikes in your example
the star maybe not that meaningful for white coins or for modern coins then it is for me neutral as many modern coins have exceptional eye appeal just because of their manufacturing process and being new and craed for in todays modern technology and packaging environment
so for modern coins the star maybe is neutral?
but there is an exception like older series as per the below
for me exceptional toned and superb gem mintstate/proof coins that are say for example seated material and early commems the star means lots more! ditto for blast white exceptional ultra/deep cameo proof pre 1915 coins
especially so if it is a monster
yes you have to examine the coin not the holder but if it is exceptional-really much so it is a neat thing to be reconized by the star
but again if it is a REAL exceptional/monster toned coin and also superb gem and like say an older oblsete series or an early monster toned commem where the color/toning is a huge deciding factor for most all of the serious collectors who understand this then for me it is a good thing and a good learning tool for the beginning casual collector.
for me within my speciality a monster booming lustre and/or pl coin with exceptinoal/monster toning in ms 67 68 lets say seated coin where the overall eye appeal is super great and really monster and is not seen or usually does not come this way like a one in a million coin and is agreed apon that the coin is really super special then the star by ngc for a neat coin cant hurt!
i think for me if a star coin is the real deal and a bag of chips! and is a superb gem and exceptionally moneter toned then with the star for the coin it is great on the holder! just like an oscar or gold olympic medal yes i am sure there are many movies and athletes that are great but only a few can earn their star so to speak!
so................. as defined by the above parameters and if used as per the above then i think the star designation is really great ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, really great
but as always collect what you like and like what you collect
Comments
You know, you might very well be right. And if that's the case, people ought to be cracking out their high-end PCGS 67 coins with exceptional eye appeal, and getting them slabbed as NGC 68*s. Hey look, free money!
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I can not say this enough....I do not blame NGC, I do not speak ill of NGC, I just do not agree with the NGC Star program.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
All pricing, dealers, sellers not an issue.
What is wrong with the grading service stating " It is a technical MS6X, we also think it has great "eye appeal"? Isn't that what we send them in for , an opinion?
Or are coins being sent in to see where they lie in the "pricing scale"?
My opinion, coins are sent in for grading & authentication.
TECHNICAL Grading based on the coins state of preservation; wear, contact marks, corrosion, luster.
Authentication; cleaned, AT, tooled/fake.
Eye appeal is based completely on opinions with nothing to back it up. Opinions vary dramatically from person to person.
What’s next the Official ANA Eye Appeal Standards for United States Coins?
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Where's the $800 difference?
The $925 model don't have scratches on the slab and has more small ticks on the face than the $175 Ike does.
So whats the difference between these 2 Ikes?
I read a bunch of yackity yack yack.
Nobody sees $800 worth of difference do they?
Camelot
The star coin does appear to have more frosted even luster which does greatly enhance the eye appeal.
Looks a lot like my PCGS 1974S MS68
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
for PQ coins. Again, the tables have been turned and the wool has been pulled over the eyes of the collectors.
And now for a positive view, I believe the star program should be used to show that a coin has eye appeal or that the coin is brilliant white or prooflike or perhaps has an EDS strike......
Back to the downside. When a coin was given a grade of MS66 we said 'Wow what a great coin with great eye appeal. Then when the MS67 grade became popular, we expected that a MS67 coin to have that great eye appeal. Then some MS68's come along and we expected the same, coins graded with super eye appeal. But now we're told that we need our coins designated with a star to show that a coin has super-duper eye appeal. Please.....give me a break!
Why don't they just give the coins a grade point or two extra like in the PCGS registry..... sure, they're already doing that.
NGC is a business and they need to regenerate their market. So instead of beating a dead dog with this thing perhaps we should come up with ideas for a symbol equivalent to NGC's star designation so PCGS can keep up with the Jones.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Did the bidders run them up to insane prices? I have no idea because I am not familar with any of them but if not then I would guess that the * is not really a super price inflator (at least yet).
1
2
3
In particular, the coin in the auction listing does not appear to have exceptional eye appeal beyond the grade, it has the typical flat luster grainy look often found in this date. A nice coin, but not $925 nice.
I haven't seen Tomaska's coin, maybe it's a monster. However, I wouldn't assume from the price that it warrants it. He's a great marketer and has done much to advance the collecting of cameo proofs, but he's not an Ike specialist. If he can get $1500 for it I should start consigning through him -- my customers would laugh at me if I asked that price.
On the other hand... you can make the same argument about absurd valuation with many PCGS coins. If you could get that same coin in a PCGS MS69 holder you've got a $5000 coin, even if it's not noticably nicer than a premium MS68.
My main beef with the * is that we already have enough confusion in grading. And somehow it seems more absurd to me than assigning a numerical grade, especially if it's supposed to denote eye appeal. I mean, are you going to look at a coin and say, sure it looks beautiful, but since it's not in a * holder I can't pay a premium? Or conversely, it doesn't look that great to me, but NGC says it has superior eye appeal, so ok?
With Ikes, I guess I'm not going to worry about it unless the NGC * coins really do command that kind of money. There's a big difference between asking price and realized price.
In strict technical terms, there's nothing wrong with the NGC * program. I don't much care for it, but it may benefit other collectors.
But, if the market will pay stupid money just because it's a super-grade PCGS modern, then the market can pay stupid money for an NGC * coin. Those who don't like this situation will just have to deal with it, or find the time to LOOK AT THE COIN INSTEAD OF THE HOLDER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EVP
PS Score this one for NGC!
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The problem isn't the NGC star or the dealers it's us dumb collectors! We buy numbers on plastic, stars and grading service initials instead of what's really important.
IT'S THE COIN STUPID!
I have a VERY NICE 76 Silver IKE in an NGC holder that I paid less than half what it would have cost had it been in a PCGS holder. I made the choice to find a nice coin in an NGC holder, because I feel the price of the same coin in a PCGS holder is excessive... the purchase of a * coin is no different. I/we (collectors) need to decide what is excessive and what is not.
That said, I am VERY HAPPY with each and every * coin that I have purchased, and all have been only at a modest premium over typical coins for the grade. A dealer or individual can ASK and $ amount they want for a coin... we (the collectors) need to maintain OUR sanity and not jump at excess hype and pay crazy $$ for coins that we would not otherwise.
Agree or disagree with NGC's use of the *, it is the sellers of these coins that will take advantage of the policy in an attempt to bring in extra $$, not NGC. I just see the * as an additional tool for me to use when comparing coins of like grade/type.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Bill
As a Marketing Ploy... it seems to me if people believe they can get more money with the star and they send their coins to NGC, it's a good marketing ploy for NGC.
I also thought "Eye Appeal" was calculated into the grade of the coin. The Coin could be an MS66 but because it had great "Eye Appeal" it might be graded an MS67.
-David
"What do you think is going to happen to the value of NGC coins without stars, nobody will want them!"
Depends on whether you're a collector plastic, initials and stars or COINS!
Unfortunately a certain amount of demand IS for plastic, initials and stars. Changes in that demand as a result of changes to the plastic, initials and stars might have a trickle down affect on the market in general. How much of an affect? I don't know but you would think that as the prices of coins increase the buyers become more serious about doing their homework with respect to THE COIN.
Dog, I agree with you 100%...I don't think either of the Ikes are solid 68s, star or no star.
This is just another example of the grading services catering to the people who can't grade coins for s**t. Here you go , this coin is a 68, but this one is a really nice 68 thats why its so much more money.
If you ever want to have some fun, take some PQ 64 Morgan Dollars, put 'em in a Dansco Album and mosey over to the next coin show that is in your area. Most dealers will try to "rip" 'em from you, but you will be able to tell that they think they have hit the jackpot. MOST dealers have frogotten how to grade.
Greg
Probably because they are starting to realize the high premiums they paid for their PCGS coins will not exist when it comes time to sell, but they can't say they weren't warned before hand. I am just glad I collect coins instead of plastic, it is so much more fun.
The NGC stars might start selling at the same level as equally graded PCGS coins.
The NGC non-star coins will continue to sell at a discount and will get even harder to sell and probably fall even further down the price scale due to the lack of the star. Collectors will naturally draw the conclusion that, no star means low end for the grade and is over graded by PCGS standards.
The NGC registry people can now chase the Star and pay ungodly premiums for low pop star coins (sounds familiar don't it, PCGS guys chasing low pop high grade coins) and PCGS fans will then be able to poke fun at the stupid people buying low pop NGC * slabs for astronomical prices.
Most (NOT ALL) of the star coins will probably not have a great noticeable difference between them and their non-star counterparts or most of the coins of the same grade but in PCGS slabs (again sounds familiar, that is all the PCGS guys hear concerning the different high grades 67/68 common coins)
Collectors will all disagree on whether a coin was deserving of the star, which will perpetuate the “You are stupid, buy the coin not the slab” non-sense.
The crack out kings are now breathing new signs of life.
Dealers are now breathing new signs of life.
NGC profits and market shares grow.
Collectors end up paying the price AGAIN.
All this because 3 people in a room think a coin has eye appeal…………
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
<< <i>When certain coins bring 50X for the next grade up, 5X for the right coin is not unusual at all. >>
Key word "certain" now we can expand that to include all common or better date and type coins.
So now collectors can pay 5X retail for a NGC star slab and that is ok.
What’s even better is I can find the same coins in PCGS slabs with equivalent or better eye appeal and since they do not play the Star game only pay max 10% - 20% over retail or better.
Who’s the real winner?
AND NO I am not talking about the monster toned or the true rarities in the hobby you always seem to use as an example. The average collectors are not buying $20,000.00 + coins. For the most part the coins that will provide 100% of the gouging will be the common to better dates within the different series and type coins. The ones that trade regularly between your average collectors and dealers. Think outside of your box
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Can nobody not take everything so da*n personal? I have never bashed NGC; I have never bashed anyone that buys NGC coins (heII even I have bought a few in the past). All I have ever said is "I do not agree with the Star program" and stated many reasons why I do not.
But no I am labeled a PCGS rah rah and told I am jealous and afraid ect ect ect.
Forget all that $hit and debate the topic.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Just so there's no confusion... NGC is only doing the grading. You can agree with the grade or not, and you can agree with the * policy or not. But, let's be clear: NGC is NOT pricing these coins. The dealers are, and these dealers have no collusive activity going on with NGC.
The way the above bold text was written could've been misconstrued as yet another CU-esque collusive scheme of creating their own widgets (PCGS), pricing their own widgets (the CU price index) and retailing their own widgets(DHRC).
EVP
PS Please note that I'm not saying the ask price for the * coins are out of bounds for the market. I don't know, and I don't care (because I don't dabble in this stuff). All I'm saying is that NGC (or CS) has nothing to do with the pricing.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
No - some specialists pay what a premium quality coin is worth to THEM ... I just drew an example from a popular series. A coin is worth what it's worth. It's pretty shortsighted to say a coin will cost 5X retail. What is retail? Do you honestly think you can buy a PCGS undergrade for retail? Does any specialist pay retail for an overgrade? Retail is the price you can typically buy a coin of a certain quality.... be that same quality coin a PCGS64, NGC64*, NGC65 or ACG70. It doesn't matter what's on the label - the quality of the individual coin dictates the price. Is a super nice coin, that in the next grade up sells for $5K, worth $1500 when a basal quality piece for that grade is worth only $100? How the heck should I know - it depends on the coin! I do know that nobody ever offers a dealer MORE than he's got it listed for, so he's better off starting a bit high before the chisel comes (there's another bourse floor term!).
realize that the market had moved so much in a few short months and priced the coin before looking at a greysheet or bluesheet. Dumb mistake. David didn't take advantage of me. I know that most others would have!
roadrunner
now for me i understand you buy the coin not the holder
but i love the star
wwbillman i understand your point for modern coins like ikes in your example
the star maybe not that meaningful for white coins or for modern coins then it is for me neutral as many modern coins have exceptional eye appeal just because of their manufacturing process and being new and craed for in todays modern technology and packaging environment
so for modern coins the star maybe is neutral?
but there is an exception like older series as per the below
for me exceptional toned and superb gem mintstate/proof coins that are say for example seated material and early commems the star means lots more! ditto for blast white exceptional ultra/deep cameo proof pre 1915 coins
especially so if it is a monster
yes you have to examine the coin not the holder but if it is exceptional-really much so it is a neat thing to be reconized by the star
but again if it is a REAL exceptional/monster toned coin and also superb gem and like say an older oblsete series or an early monster toned commem where the color/toning is a huge deciding factor for most all of the serious collectors who understand this then for me it is a good thing and a good learning tool for the beginning casual collector.
for me within my speciality a monster booming lustre and/or pl coin with exceptinoal/monster toning in ms 67 68 lets say seated coin where the overall eye appeal is super great and really monster and is not seen or usually does not come this way like a one in a million coin and is agreed apon that the coin is really super special then the star by ngc for a neat coin cant hurt!
i think for me if a star coin is the real deal and a bag of chips! and is a superb gem and exceptionally moneter toned then with the star for the coin it is great on the holder! just like an oscar or gold olympic medal yes i am sure there are many movies and athletes that are great but only a few can earn their star so to speak!
so................. as defined by the above parameters and if used as per the above then i think the star designation is really great ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, really great
but as always collect what you like and like what you collect
sincerely michael