U.S. Currency, anyone?

Dave99B

Lately I've been finding myself looking through U.S. currency on eBay. Maybe it's because I just can't seem to find "jack" it term of decent U.S. coins. eBay seems really dead right now.

I've never really had much interest in paper, but lately I've been feeling like I need a little, you know, to round out the old ollection.

My ? is: Is CGA the PCGS of the grading companies when it comes to grading paper?

Anyway, thanks for your advice -

Dave

P.S. I need to get my hands on one these 1882 $100 Gold Certificates I just love the design/color.

LanLord

Don't have an answer for you on the grading of paper, but that gold cert in your link is really nice. I am partial to the educational series of bills released in the 1890s. Those are truely spectactular bills, the paper equivalent of St. Gaudens designs.

jtryka

I am not an expert, but CGA seems to be the leading grader of notes, and it might even be owned by CU. I saw a post on another thread by a collector of US notes saying that professional grading in paper has not really caught on since feel and smell are a real important part of the overall condition. I buy a few notes now and then and I like them raw and cruddy, so I don't need to worry about the condition, I don't spend a lot on them, and I get to touch and feel them. I bought nearly all the 1917 Large size FRNs, from $5 to $50 and they are really cool.

Whitewashqtr

CGA is the PCGS of the currency world. I do collect currencyt and have a keen interest for it. I do not own any certified notes. They are very expensive and unless you collect the older series' usually its not worth the $30 in grading fees.

I love currency almost as much as coins. good luck

ANACONDA

I know a little about currency. I own about $200,000 worth (Bison in CGA 68, sold a set of educational notes in CGA 67 for 34K and got my picture in Newsweek, June 17th, 2002, page 60, I offer many 68s and finest knowns) - almost all if it is in my eBay store. I wrote a piece about a Tombstone in CGA 66 finest known -- the link is here - I will probably get flamed for putting a link here, however I will take the heat so long as the flamer has read the description in the auction, which will, I believe, prove to be more educational than self promotional.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1372483500&rd=1



cut and paste



Answer to your question - CGA is owned only by three very experienced guys in New Jersey. There is only one other grading service, CGC owned by a mortgage broker and sharpie named Joe Bissell in Phoenix Arizona. CGC is very conservative and new and CGA has been around and very is dependable. However, I would never buy any note or coin of significance without a return privilege.

Rare US currency is very, very cool. Exceedingly rare [way rarer than certified rare coins - I own one of only two Bisons in 68 and you can buy mine for $30,000 (the other one is owned by someone else and not for sale) or my $10 Indian in PCGS MS68 which is one of 8 with one finer for $90,000]; rare certified currency is rising in value every year for several years now, due in large part to the new grading services and the concommitant realization of just how rare the stuff is. Rare US currency is fabulously beautiful.

Now flame me.

adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)

jtryka

I don't disagree with anything you said, but if you get flamed and the Bison is turned to ash, you'll still have the Indian (which I must admit I covet mightily!).

supercoin

Link to volumes of Adrianese

I didn't read the whole thing, but one thing you alluded to that struck me that I'd never thought of before -- currency is generally serial numbered and presumably the grading companies keep track of that number? So, is the "crackout" game nonexistent?

ANACONDA

So, is the "crackout" game nonexistent?

Yes.......Cool, eh?

Ya'll don't rush the currency hobby, now.

adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)

Dave99B

No crackout? Really? You mean, if you send in a note, they cross check it, and if they determine that it's been submitted before, it gets the same grade?

The note gets the same grade for eternity? Seems cruel.

Dave

1jester

I bet you anything you could get a different grade after cracking out that 68 bill---just rip it, or crumple it up real good, then resubmit it and see what grade it gets!!!

cointagious

cga is bad news! in no way should they be exemplified as the pcgs of currency. the pcda has panned currency slabbing and for good reason. there are many cga notes that have been processed into a high grade holder. if you are one of the unfortunate coin people that buys it, i hope for your sake that you resell it to some unsuspecting sap (like yourself) because any knowledgable paper guy is going to ruin your day for you.

ANACONDA

1jester - that was very funny! I laughed out loud!

adrian

BRdude

I have to agree with cointageous here. Last I read, the PCDA (prof Currency Dealers Assoc.) is trying all it can do to stay away from graded currency. I'm not saying it's good or bad as I am sure it would have it's good points and bad points, that is just the last I read in my Bank Note Reporter. I do know this, until several weeks (months?) ago you couldn't even get ahold of CGA and this new outfit, CGC or whoever they are, they haven't been around long enough to really have a track record. Notes can be "conserved" just like coins, so ya gotta watch out!!!

Keyrock

Currency is very cool to collect. I started collecting the fractional currency that was used during the civil war. Very under priced and very reasonable. I have some notes of which only 4 or 5 TOTAL all grades are known. Now that is rare!! The vignettes are beautiful (i.e. the educational series, the Bison etc..) and a great diversion when the coins aren't available. Recently I've purchased a couple more due to the drought in quality.

Regarding CGA, I have never bought a note certified by them. Personally, I like to hold the notes. Lift it up sideways to the light to look for minute creases/fold, look for pinholes, feel the texture and view the raised printing etc....

I would get a few books, maybe attend a few shows and learn how to look and evaluate currency. There is more to it than just looking at the face and rev of the note. You need the centering etc....

Rich

wallstreetman

Did you see the currency I just bought?

wallstreetman

I dont know why it says coin set!

1jester

Adrian, I'm glad (finally.....). But I don't recommend cracking that 68 out!

ANACONDA

Cointageous wrote:

"cga is bad news! in no way should they be exemplified as the pcgs of currency. the pcda has panned currency slabbing and for good reason. there are many cga notes that have been processed into a high grade holder. if you are one of the unfortunate coin people that buys it, i hope for your sake that you resell it to some unsuspecting sap (like yourself) because any knowledgable paper guy is going to ruin your day for you."



Cointageous - so I suppose you're recommending to all the readers that they just buy raw currency if they are interested in currency? Why don't you also share your enormous knowledge of currency and consumer protection by telling them what a Gengerke Census is, how many kinds there are, where they can get one and why they need one. While you are at a continuation of your exposition of your currency acumen, why don't you tell everyone where they can get a Bissell Population report, why they need one, and what it's shortfalls are.

Ya' know, now I remember why I'm mad at you. It is because you, in my opinion, are like a dog that's been hit by a car. You snap at almost everything and anyone, when you could be so much more helpful if you would just slow down and think about not only how to hurt someone but also how to help not just them but also yourself.

Now, flame me. (I'm probably not worth your time, am I?)

adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)

mrpaseo

My interest as of late has been sparked with FRN. I have had a few US and world notes but have been searching Ebay lately.

Easily my favorite note is the one seen on this page

Of which I will someday own one...

Maybe we can learn a little about FRN and currency from the coin guys, since the currency thread is dead!!!

Thanks for the topic,
Ray

cointagious

adrian,
you're rite adrian. anyone thinking of throwing serious money into currency should get the latest copy of gengerke's paper money records. you'll find a number of large size notes with a long history of sales as xf or au that are now in cga 'gem' holders. also, be aware that are still many hi grade large size pieces coming to market that have yet to appear in the census so learning how to grade paper is essential and it can't be done effectively thru a holder, unlike a coin.

now here's a question for you. do you use paper money records to research a note even though it's in a holder? if so, why?

Conder101

CGA is the PCGS of paper probably because they have been around a lot longer than CGC although for durability I like CGC's holders better(Hard plastic like a slab rather than the pliable holders used by CGA). And there is now a third grading firm for paper that just began operations in June. RCGS Rare Currency Grading Service.

Flash

why don't you tell everyone where they can get a Bissell Population report, why they need one, and what it's shortfalls are

Where can I get a Bissell Population report? Why do I need one? What are its shortfalls?

anyone thinking of throwing serious money into currency should get the latest copy of gengerke's paper money records

This one sounds interesting too. Where can I get a copy?

DHeath

I love the old horse blankets and funny backs, but lately I've been looking at fractionals. They've got to be the SBA's of their time. Totally unaccepted. Bills are cool, and I could see why coin collectors would be drawn to them.

ANACONDA

Cointageous asked (after ignoring my questions, which I will answer after I answer his....)

"now here's a question for you. do you use paper money records to research a note even though it's in a holder? if so, why?"

It seems apparant that you are asking this question where and when you are asking it because you want to make a statement that "grading by CGA is not good that's why you need to look up potential buys in a Gengerke Census and Bissell Population report."

And your statement (in the form of a question) is wrong.

The answer to your question is you look it up in the pop reports because CGA is imperfect. They are very good but they make mistakes, just like everyone else. And if you are familiar with what I always recommend and almost without exception, what I almost always do, you would know that I always say "buy the coin or note not the holder" and always (always, always, always) get a return privilege.

Here is another reason to look notes up in the pop reports -- CGA's opinion doesn't always match the opinions of others on grading. Imagine that! On an activity as objective as grading! You want to know what the other graders have said - it might sway your opinion.

And finally, there is at least one more reason. Sometimes CGA is not wrong but earlier graders were wrong but you want to make sure you if you buy a disparaged note that you get a discount.

For example. This is a hypothetical situation. You are offered a Black eagle in CGA 63. You look it up on the Census. The Census says it was graded by three auction houses, one graded it as as AU, and the other two graded it as uncirculated.

You tell the seller that you will buy it if you can cut it out and look at it in the traditional and appropriate manner and that if it is uncirculated, you will buy it at X, which is a little below what you would normall pay since a previous auction house called it an AU.

You obtain your permission, cut the note out and it it looks unc to you, you pay the guy X and you send the note in for re-holdering.

You want to try to get a discount because a note that is disparaged is worth less than one that hasn't been.

Now, I will answer the questions I posed to Cointageous that he either didn't see or elected not to answer.

adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)

ANACONDA

what is a Gengerke Census -- it is a compilation of almost every note Martin Gengerke has seen or knows about. Gives the history and grades.


how many kinds are there are - i know of two, CD that lists 60,000 notes and spiral bound that is the abridged version

where they can get one - call Martin at 212-908-4643

why you need one - see above

where you can get a Bissell Population report -- Joe Bissell creates them and sells them on eBay as "moneytreeme"

why you need one - see above

what it's shortfalls are -- the Bissell Pop report does not report all the notes that CGA grades, it reports only the notes that CGA grades that make a public appearance and the information of which can be harvested, so to speak by Joe (CGA does not provide pop reports or info to Joe, Joe has to go out and get it, like Martin.)


adrian
anaconda.rare.coins (on eBay)

Flash

Thanks Adrian. I'll have to check into those reports. Another question for you:

You tell the seller that you will buy it if you can cut it out and look at it in the traditional and appropriate manner

What exactly IS the traditional and appropriate manner? While there are a zillion websites and references that cover examining and grading coins, I have found that there are few that cover currency. The ones I've found are very vague when it comes to these subjects. I am interesting in collecting currency, but I don't want to look like a novice my first time out.