Marshall Fogel Part two 1952 Topps
19731941
Posts: 9
The Clyde Klutz story has to wait in "the wings" for a moment as I just remembered a few stories about the set that preceded the "pool table" meeting at my Denver home that actually took place in the Spring of 1996 not, as previously stated in 1995.
Now to the story about cards in the set numbering one through eighty. As widely known these cards have both black and red backs. I believe, as many others do, that the creators of the set originally planned that all of the cards be printed with black reverses. But, when the first eighty were printed with these black backs the front of the cards were dull in color and unattractive. Thus, the first eighty cards were reprinted with the red backs as well as the rest of the set. Why are there more black backs available then red backs. {the pop report is not accurate. I believe it to be so because when PSA started grading the first 80 cards, they probably didn't think to report the distinction between the color of the backs. Frankly PSA does a fantastic job in reporting the grading population.} Genreally, there are more black backs because of the the Seattle find in the early 90's where Paul Lewicki,a dealer bought a plethora of unopened packs of this low numbered series. He opened many of them and sold as many as I needed to me for $100 apiece. The problem with many of them is there were manufacturing pulls at one of the corners. What happened when those cards were manufactured, is the cutting machine pulled the corner of the card from the sheet rather then cut the card at the corner. Paul sold many of the remaining unopened packs, and at the time, they sold for an average of $2000. I recently saw a pack sell for $7500.
Where did the Pafko 10 originate? Louis Bollman, who was an independant card dealer, who now is on the Mastronet team, noticed an unopened pack at a card store. He tells me the storey that for quite a while he and the store owner "haggled" over the price of the 52 pack. Finally, Louis just decied to "get it over with" and buy the pack and see if he gets lucky. I think Louis had the thought that there was a good chance that the pack came from the Seattle find and, maybe, just maybe, the Pafko card may be buried in the pack. Louis knew that even if the Pafko card was in the pack, that disaster may be lurking because many of the Pafko cards from the find had a white "cob web" print defect. It was as if a spider had weaved the web on the face of the card. Nonetheless, Louis opened the pack--- and there it was----the perfect Pafko ten. If you're getting a "rush" reading this stuff, think of the rush my buddy Louis went through the moment that card "stared back at him."
Now you have a good backround of information as to how important the Rosen and Seattle finds were to promoting the opportunity to finish the set particularly numbers one throught 80 and 215 through 407.
The Rosen find did include other numbered cards but not in quantity and not all of the thousands of cards would achieve an investment condition. The Rutherford card was plentiful; but most all had a wrinkle defect accounting for why the card is expensive as to the present market.
These facts certainly now explain why the series from 100 to 200 are difficult as there were no "finds." Note Rojek, Kazak, Byerly, Crandall, Maxwell, Erautt, Miksis and Klutz to name a few are
difficult to find in PSA 8 or better.
So where did the great cards come from so Charlie Merkle and Marshall Fogel and others could collect high grade. They came from early collectors who like Charlie and myself were fighting hard to put he set together. Our disadvantage was hugh. There were no grading standards and there was no PSA. What was an 8, 9, or 10? It was a guess. It was those early collectors who sold there sets that allows, we the survivors, to finish the exhausting quest to own a 1952 high grade Topps set that can be seen at the set registry site.
Here is the story that will bring us to my "buddy" Mr. Klutz.
Jason Nester, Jim Copeland and Mike Murphy had been putting the 52 set together begining in the early and mid eighties. Mike Murphy's story has been told. Jason Nester was a Canadian executive who, early on, had an eye for centering, corners and card appeal. He had a great set of cards. Financial pressures caused him to sell the set in the early to mid 90's. Jason is out of the hobby, but I can attest to the fact that he was fanatical about condition and he was a very nice man.
Jim Copeland started collecting in the mid eighties and he bought his first cards from Greg Bussineau. Jim decided to collect every baseball card ever made. With the help of Greg, Bill Mastro and Rob Lifson, Jim Copland, the owner of sporting goods stores throughout California amassed the largest baseball card collection ever. He also collected memorabilia. In 1991 he sold his collection through Sothebys. Bill Mastro was hired by the auction house to organize the collection and to produce the auction book.
The auction was a "smashing success". The sale totaled about 5 million dollars. As I recall, it was the first time in Sotheby's history that their catalog "sold out." Also, this is the auction when the famous Wagner T 206 card sold to Wayne Gretzky and Bruce McNall for $471,000. Copeland bought the card privately from Bill Mastro for $100,000. The card recently sold for 1.2 million dollars.
Also, the Copeland 52 topps set sold to Ed Wormser, a clothing manufacturer, who consigned his set to Robert Edward Auctions for the November 4, 1995 auction. It is at this auction that I worked out a deal with David Hall the owner of PSA at the time and Charlie Merkel to win the most of the commons in the set for all of us and then divide the commons at my home in the Spring of 1996. {David Hall, my good friend, is an important executive with Collectors Universe since the company became public.}
This now brings us to my house in Denver in the Spring of 1996. We were going to divide about 300 cards. The cards were graded by PSA. Unfortunately, for Charlie and myself, most of the cards in our sets were not graded. Fortunately for David, his set was graded and he didn't have to guess how to best improve his set. David had a goal. He already committed to sell him collection back in the summer of 1995 in order to resolve any potential conflict of interest in owning PSA and collecting PSA graded cards. So, David's goal was to have as many psa 8's and 9's so his set, at sale in the summer of 1996, could be marketed as the best PSA set ever assembled.
I must tell you that from November until we met, each of us was plotting our strategies so each could get the best of what we needed. None of the three of us were "dummies." Each of us knew that there would be no advantages taken because the other was "stupid." This fact is what made all the more thrilling and competitive.
The time had come to answer my door for the first big "heavy timber" to arrive. It was David with a briefcase. ---and tucked inside was David's strategy notes. A few minutes later, the door bell rings and it is Charlie the Mississippi lawyer.----and of course he had a brief case. When I think back on this day I remember hearing the music from Godfather one and I pictured that the three of us were dividing the Bronx and Queens in just a few minutes. Well, we were dividing $60,000 worth of commons. ----And each of us was "thirsting" to ultimately have the best set.
David won the right to go first, I was second and Charlie third. The second round I go first Charlie second and David third. David picks a nine. I'm next --- the only card I don't have in my ungraded set is Clyde Klutz. That is why I picked him. Looking back on that time I made a good choice by luck. We didn't know at that time the population of any of these cards. We certainly didn't know that value of the story I am recitilng now.
Well, as you know, David sold his collection in the summer of 1996, I bought the Mantle 10 in that auction for $121,000 the highest price ever paid for a post war card, Charlie and I got out sets graded and, of course, we had plenty of work after that to bring our sets to where they are today. What was the last card I need to finish my set----Herman Wehmeier--card 80. The last few cards before Herman that I needed were Crandal Pafko Rojek and Kazak.
Well that's the story. Happy Trails. Marshall
Now to the story about cards in the set numbering one through eighty. As widely known these cards have both black and red backs. I believe, as many others do, that the creators of the set originally planned that all of the cards be printed with black reverses. But, when the first eighty were printed with these black backs the front of the cards were dull in color and unattractive. Thus, the first eighty cards were reprinted with the red backs as well as the rest of the set. Why are there more black backs available then red backs. {the pop report is not accurate. I believe it to be so because when PSA started grading the first 80 cards, they probably didn't think to report the distinction between the color of the backs. Frankly PSA does a fantastic job in reporting the grading population.} Genreally, there are more black backs because of the the Seattle find in the early 90's where Paul Lewicki,a dealer bought a plethora of unopened packs of this low numbered series. He opened many of them and sold as many as I needed to me for $100 apiece. The problem with many of them is there were manufacturing pulls at one of the corners. What happened when those cards were manufactured, is the cutting machine pulled the corner of the card from the sheet rather then cut the card at the corner. Paul sold many of the remaining unopened packs, and at the time, they sold for an average of $2000. I recently saw a pack sell for $7500.
Where did the Pafko 10 originate? Louis Bollman, who was an independant card dealer, who now is on the Mastronet team, noticed an unopened pack at a card store. He tells me the storey that for quite a while he and the store owner "haggled" over the price of the 52 pack. Finally, Louis just decied to "get it over with" and buy the pack and see if he gets lucky. I think Louis had the thought that there was a good chance that the pack came from the Seattle find and, maybe, just maybe, the Pafko card may be buried in the pack. Louis knew that even if the Pafko card was in the pack, that disaster may be lurking because many of the Pafko cards from the find had a white "cob web" print defect. It was as if a spider had weaved the web on the face of the card. Nonetheless, Louis opened the pack--- and there it was----the perfect Pafko ten. If you're getting a "rush" reading this stuff, think of the rush my buddy Louis went through the moment that card "stared back at him."
Now you have a good backround of information as to how important the Rosen and Seattle finds were to promoting the opportunity to finish the set particularly numbers one throught 80 and 215 through 407.
The Rosen find did include other numbered cards but not in quantity and not all of the thousands of cards would achieve an investment condition. The Rutherford card was plentiful; but most all had a wrinkle defect accounting for why the card is expensive as to the present market.
These facts certainly now explain why the series from 100 to 200 are difficult as there were no "finds." Note Rojek, Kazak, Byerly, Crandall, Maxwell, Erautt, Miksis and Klutz to name a few are
difficult to find in PSA 8 or better.
So where did the great cards come from so Charlie Merkle and Marshall Fogel and others could collect high grade. They came from early collectors who like Charlie and myself were fighting hard to put he set together. Our disadvantage was hugh. There were no grading standards and there was no PSA. What was an 8, 9, or 10? It was a guess. It was those early collectors who sold there sets that allows, we the survivors, to finish the exhausting quest to own a 1952 high grade Topps set that can be seen at the set registry site.
Here is the story that will bring us to my "buddy" Mr. Klutz.
Jason Nester, Jim Copeland and Mike Murphy had been putting the 52 set together begining in the early and mid eighties. Mike Murphy's story has been told. Jason Nester was a Canadian executive who, early on, had an eye for centering, corners and card appeal. He had a great set of cards. Financial pressures caused him to sell the set in the early to mid 90's. Jason is out of the hobby, but I can attest to the fact that he was fanatical about condition and he was a very nice man.
Jim Copeland started collecting in the mid eighties and he bought his first cards from Greg Bussineau. Jim decided to collect every baseball card ever made. With the help of Greg, Bill Mastro and Rob Lifson, Jim Copland, the owner of sporting goods stores throughout California amassed the largest baseball card collection ever. He also collected memorabilia. In 1991 he sold his collection through Sothebys. Bill Mastro was hired by the auction house to organize the collection and to produce the auction book.
The auction was a "smashing success". The sale totaled about 5 million dollars. As I recall, it was the first time in Sotheby's history that their catalog "sold out." Also, this is the auction when the famous Wagner T 206 card sold to Wayne Gretzky and Bruce McNall for $471,000. Copeland bought the card privately from Bill Mastro for $100,000. The card recently sold for 1.2 million dollars.
Also, the Copeland 52 topps set sold to Ed Wormser, a clothing manufacturer, who consigned his set to Robert Edward Auctions for the November 4, 1995 auction. It is at this auction that I worked out a deal with David Hall the owner of PSA at the time and Charlie Merkel to win the most of the commons in the set for all of us and then divide the commons at my home in the Spring of 1996. {David Hall, my good friend, is an important executive with Collectors Universe since the company became public.}
This now brings us to my house in Denver in the Spring of 1996. We were going to divide about 300 cards. The cards were graded by PSA. Unfortunately, for Charlie and myself, most of the cards in our sets were not graded. Fortunately for David, his set was graded and he didn't have to guess how to best improve his set. David had a goal. He already committed to sell him collection back in the summer of 1995 in order to resolve any potential conflict of interest in owning PSA and collecting PSA graded cards. So, David's goal was to have as many psa 8's and 9's so his set, at sale in the summer of 1996, could be marketed as the best PSA set ever assembled.
I must tell you that from November until we met, each of us was plotting our strategies so each could get the best of what we needed. None of the three of us were "dummies." Each of us knew that there would be no advantages taken because the other was "stupid." This fact is what made all the more thrilling and competitive.
The time had come to answer my door for the first big "heavy timber" to arrive. It was David with a briefcase. ---and tucked inside was David's strategy notes. A few minutes later, the door bell rings and it is Charlie the Mississippi lawyer.----and of course he had a brief case. When I think back on this day I remember hearing the music from Godfather one and I pictured that the three of us were dividing the Bronx and Queens in just a few minutes. Well, we were dividing $60,000 worth of commons. ----And each of us was "thirsting" to ultimately have the best set.
David won the right to go first, I was second and Charlie third. The second round I go first Charlie second and David third. David picks a nine. I'm next --- the only card I don't have in my ungraded set is Clyde Klutz. That is why I picked him. Looking back on that time I made a good choice by luck. We didn't know at that time the population of any of these cards. We certainly didn't know that value of the story I am recitilng now.
Well, as you know, David sold his collection in the summer of 1996, I bought the Mantle 10 in that auction for $121,000 the highest price ever paid for a post war card, Charlie and I got out sets graded and, of course, we had plenty of work after that to bring our sets to where they are today. What was the last card I need to finish my set----Herman Wehmeier--card 80. The last few cards before Herman that I needed were Crandal Pafko Rojek and Kazak.
Well that's the story. Happy Trails. Marshall
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Comments
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
This is better than the Godfather. Please, somebody make a movie out of this. Or at least write a book.
Once again - what an amazing story! Thanks again for taking the time to write it and share it with us.
Dan Markel
ethan Frost
Groucho Marx
Vintage Baseball Cards
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"Cards is a dirty business."
"I'll make him a trade offer he can't refuse. My Kluttz for his Runnells."
"It's a Sicilian message. It means give me the Wehmeier or sleeps with the fishes."
"Do you know who I am? I am Charley, I made my redbacks while you were going after your blackbacks."
"You are taking this personally. David, this is business and this man is taking this very very personally."
"I have a sentimental weakness for my children - Rojek, Kazak, Byerly. And I spoil them as you can see. They are whitebacks, listen."
"You talk about commons. Is Bollman going to bring your Maxwell back to you or my Kluttz back to me?"
"Leave the gun. Take the Crandall."
"Marshall, you are my brother and I love you. But don't ever outbid me on a card I need again. Ever."
"I'd hoped that we could come here and reason together. And as a reasonable man I'm willing to do whatever is necessary to find ways to improve portions of my set with this centering problem."
"One thing I learned from Marshall was to try to think like the people around you think, You're going for Yogi, I'm going for Kluttz."
"I'm gonna upgrade. I'll upgrade. I've learned I have the funds to upgrade."
"I didn't want your set Trimmons. I didn't want to bring another one of your sets into this world."
"I don't feel like I have to wipe everybody out, Marshall. Just the people who keep bidding against me."
"David, Marshall, you know you surprise me. If anything in this life is certain. If history has taught us anything. It's that I have more 9's than you do."
"Good health is the most important thing. More than success. More than money. More than power. More than a PSA 10 Mantle."
"Never hate your NM fillers. It affects your judgement."
"I don't need tough guys, I need more lawyers with unlimited funds upgrading 52 sets."
"What happened? They put me in a room with an unopened 52 pack. What do you think happened? I bit the pack open."
"Just when I thought I was out, they make 131 to 190 gray backs a requirement for the set registry."
"Marshall, now that you're so respectable you're even more dangerous. In fact, I preferred you when you were just a common lawyer."
"Your corners are terrible and it is just that you suffer."
"It's your big thing isn't it. 100% Completion … backed up by the highest possible grade average."
I forsee a similar meeting down the road with several of the 1969 collectors.
Ron
Vintage Baseball Cards
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1963 Fleer
Lou Brock Master Set
1963 Fleer
Lou Brock Master Set
It's a great story for a book too.
My Auctions
Yankee Collector 1958-60
Retired complete 1960 Topps set
My Auctions
Groucho Marx
yep, it is 3. I think Marshall's is the nicest of the 3 (centering)
PSA 10 BOTR