Grading time - What do you think of this Franklin?

FC57Coins

Hey All:

Franklins are one of the toughest coins to grade in high MS condition - what do you think of this bad boy? Any flaws that you can detect from the pics? - Ideas on NGC vs PCGS standards on Franklins (THAT HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED A MILLION TIMES!) - your views are appreciated.

Regards,

Frank

Don't see too many MS67FBL's

IrishMike

Nice looking coin. All of the Franklins I have purchased have been raw or in NGC slabs and I have found them to accurate on the FBL designation. As a rule you can buy them for less money in an NGC slab too. I should add buy them on line for less money. I looked at two side by side at a show a couple of months ago, PCGS and NGC and they looked equal and the dealer had the same price on them.

hughesm1

It looks one grade overgraded to me, also (MO) I don't care for the toning...looks like it was sprayed on and is starting to flake off.

I see a nick on the lowermost upper set of bell lines that looks a bit distracting.

FC57Coins

Mike:

That's the problem - I've had NGC coins that are very comparable to PCGS counterparts, and then I've had NGC coins that are at least a grade below an equally graded PCGS coin - so my question to the group was to see what their experiences were and what they thought of this coin - in MS66FBL this coin would go maybe $150 tops. In MS67FBL I saw one go for $4250. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Regards,

Frank

IrishMike

Exactly why I wouldn't buy it without handling it. Didn't see the hit on the bell, would want to get a better look at it.

FC57Coins

<< <i>It looks one grade overgraded to me, also (MO) I don't care for the toning...looks like it was sprayed on and is starting to flake off. >>



I caught that too - also if you look at the bell really close betweeen Philadelphia and 1753 you'll see a small scratch too - I thought these things would knock it out of 67 contention. As for the toning, I've seen lots worse - I kinda like that - but then again that's a call for each individual.

Appreciate your input!

Frank

FC57Coins

Anyone else got any opinions?

Gilbert

Doesn't look 67 or FBL to me, although, the obverse APPEARS to be mark free, the toning isn't "spectacular", there also appears to be a few hits on the bell, and I just can't see the upper bell lines. I don't think it has the eye appeal of the coin and details or lack thereof on the reverse just don't call out MS67 to me; I've come to expect a "little slack" in NGC grading versus PCGS grading, or in other words, people SEEM to submit to NGC the coins that didn't get the PCGS grade they wanted.

FC57Coins

I've seen some coins that are truly tough to see the FBL's on pictures, but my experience with NGC coins has been that they don't grade FBL's unless they can really see them - so I'll call that a push - my concern in mainly focused on the number of hits, particularly on the bell - I can accept them for a 66 - but not on a 67 - but then again - I've never seen a 67 up close so that's why I'm asking for help.

Regards,

Frank

LanLord

There's a big ole nasty crack in that bell ... oh well, never mind

I agree with most on this thread, the toning leaves alot to be desired. It looks like someone had an accident with this coin. I must say that I can't see the hit between Philidelphia and 1753 (but then my eyes are what they used to be) I actually kinda like the back, nice strike.

RLinn

I have seen very few scans on eBay that have really captured the eye appeal of the coin compared to holding it in your hand. That said, the coin in question looks very close to the grade given. IMO low end for the grade. Give it to 3 other NGC graders and it may slab 66.

FC57Coins

Yeah - helluva way to decide whether the additionall $4100 is worth it isn't it RLynn?

Thanks!

Frank

TheNumish

Looks like a 67 to me. A 67 coin still is not going to have perfect surfaces. Toning looks natural. I'd find out if those little marks are on the holder or coin. The toning isn't attractive so I wouldn't buy it. But like someone else said when it comes to toning you can lose a lot in the scan.

FC57Coins

The marks look like they're on the coins Numish - I've seen those telltale marks many times - you're right of course - the bottom line would be to hold the coin in your hand and see what it really looks like.

Regards,

Frank

supercoin

Looks well-struck and FBL to me. Looks like some light scuffing ("pitted" appearance) on bell that if it's on the coin (might be on the holder) may make the MS67 grade questionable, but keep in mind I don't know NGC's grading and the highest PCGS Franklin I've sold is MS66FBL.

More importantly, for the kind of money it's likely to bring, personally I'd want nicer (or no) toning. Also, I wonder about the luster on the reverse. It looks like it might be ok from the photo, but I've seen a lot with that same color pattern that have a "flat" gray appearance.

For 67 money I'd want an undeniably pretty coin and booming luster.

But if you're interested, looks like $30 or so will let you look at it in person to see what you think.

RLinn

<< <i>helluva way to decide whether the additionall $4100 is worth >>




The seller, fairtraderz, has a good return policy. It would cost $36 s/h/i $18 x 2) to hold the coin and return if you don't think it makes the grade after winning the bid. Seller has been responsive to my inquiries in the past and I suggest you ask for additional scans with the coin rotated 90 degrees. This changes the look of all nicks and marks as well as the bell lines. You ultimately have to like the coin and agree with the grade and you may never reach a satisfactory conclusion that you like this coin without holding it.

FC57Coins

<< <i>The seller, fairtraderz, has a good return policy. It would cost $36 s/h/i $18 x 2) to hold the coin and return if you don't think it makes the grade after winning the bid. Seller has been responsive to my inquiries in the past and I suggest you ask for additional scans with the coin rotated 90 degrees. This changes the look of all nicks and marks as well as the bell lines. You ultimately have to like the coin and agree with the grade and you may never reach a satisfactory conclusion that you like this coin without holding it. >>



I've never had any problems with the seller, as a matter of fact I've bought a lot of stuff from them and will continue to do so - I know that if I don't like something I can return it - the basic question that I'm posing is with respect to the grade and the coin, and I think the point has been made that here NGC feels that this is an MS67FBL, kind of a wondercoin, for those of us who collect Franklins, and it is obvious that when you look at the coin you wonder and you have questions. I guess the moral of the story goes back to buying the coin and not the slab, but who in their right mind is going to sell an MS67FBL ($4200) for MS66FBL ($250) money. I know I'd be dissapointed even if I paid half as much.

Regards,

Frank

RLinn

<< <i>question that I'm posing is with respect to the grade and the coin...kind of a wondercoin...I know I'd be dissapointed even if I paid half as much. >>


I pursue high grade Washingtons and to a lesser extent FBL Franklins and clearly the FBLs are the tougher find. An MS67 FBL is not an everyday occurrence and you just hate to not take a serious look when one is available. I know we always say (and believe) buy the coin but do you everhave to battle an occasional doubt based upon the holder or what others say about the holder; especially when, as you point out, there is a huge price difference between 66 & 67? Your thread has really gotten me to thinking about what are some of the less obvoius motivators behind what I buy and why.

braddick

These are scary in MS67! I'd rather buy a PQ MS66 and sleep nights.
I've yet to see a Franklin I thought deserved the $4,000.00 pricetag/grade. I'm sure they're out there- just haven't seen one yet.

steventheyn

I don't think it's a solid 67 but I bet it would be a 67 in a PCGS slab on a good day. As far as collecting them is concerned I'm not a big fan of toned Franklins, I'm more of bright white Franklin guy.

steve76020

i think we on this forum should stop bidding each other up on ebay

ifthevamzarockin

@steve76020 Nothing like showing up to the party 21 years late.

MFeld

@ifthevamzarockin said:
@steve76020 Nothing like showing up to the party 21 years late.

And with an off topic post, to boot.

telephoto1

What is it with people dredging up 20 year old threads lately?

davewesen

@telephoto1 said:
What is it with people dredging up 20 year old threads lately?

the search engine is not very user friendly?

ifthevamzarockin

@telephoto1 said:
What is it with people dredging up 20 year old threads lately?

Maybe they are dumb enough to think that the Op that was banned in 2005 will come back and respond to them.

ifthevamzarockin

@steve76020 said:
i think we on this forum should stop bidding each other up on ebay

I think on this forum we should stop bumping 21 year old threads.