Ethics Between Forum Members--edited in bold.

keets

I wanted to get some feedback as to how members would feel about the following if it took place between two board members.

1. You receive an unsolicited offer to purchase via PM related to a thread posting. The member represents himself as a knowledgeable collector in a certain series and offers a PQ coin.

2. After asking some questions and receiving answers regarding the coins description along with a high resolution scan of the holdered coin, the coin being offered is purchased and a return policy is offered.


3. Once you receive the coin, you contact the seller because it seems overgraded or you are at least uncomfortable with it's appearance.

4. The seller assures you that the coin is in fact PQ for the grade, and that since he is a specialist in the particular series you can be confident that the coin is correctly graded.

5. After owning the coin for a period of time and receiveng independent advice regarding the coin being overgraded, you submit it to the slab company and it is immediately down-gradedWould this be the typical transaction you would expect to take place between two board members? Did the seller act in an unethical manner by representing himself as a knowledgeable expert in his particular series and offering an obviously overgraded coin with assurances that it compared quite favorably to other same date/grade examples and was in fact much nicer?

Al H.

TWQG

did you guys discuss return policies?

EVillageProwler

I think the seller was being unethical. He should not have implied any assurance with regard to grade. Stating that it is his opinion of the grade is one thing, but to state authoritatively as to the grade is another.

EVP

DesertLizard

Caveat emptor!

This hobby is a used car business equivalent.

Just today I was in a coin shop and the dealer was offering an 80+ year old woman about 10 cents on the dollar for her coins. All unslabbed nice gold/halves/Morgans. I wanted to say something but was afraid to cause a comotion. I was disgusted and walked out.

Buying sight unseen from an unknown is Russian roulette.

Sorry to hear of your experience!

airplanenut

Personally, I expect more from people here... but... I'd normally be somewhat pissed at the offer, UNLESS, the seller knew I was looking for a specific coin, but then it wouldn't be unsolicited, would it?

I think an unsolicited coin should be in the BST board... anyone who knows a seller might be lying would probably say so...

Luckily... never a problem here... best bunch of sellers I have ever dealt with... always glad when I do business with someone from the forums!

Jeremy

prooflike

YOU should have offered 20 cents on the dollar! What would the dealer do? Kick you out, you were already leaving...

TheNumish

Have you told the seller the coin was graded under what he sold it for? Maybe he will suprise you and offer a refund. If he doesn't there isn't much you can do but never deal with him again.

If the guy really isn't an expert on the coin and told you all that stuff just so you'd keep the coin than yes it is unethical.

Placid

Nope grading is a opinion.
When I started collecting coins I used to go to the only coin shop within 50 miles from my house.
The guy who runs the place has alot of territory to himself and since "slabs" were a new item his only experience grading was he read and saw when he would go to a coin show maybe once every three years.

After awhile I had some slab's I wanted to sell, about 10 of them so I brought them to him.
He told me every single one of them was overgraded and wouldn't pay anywhere near the value the grades the pcgs slab suggested.

I called on the phone to a pcgs dealer 100 miles away and he was interested and gave me offers over the phone. I took them to him and he had no problem with any of the coins grades.

The point is some people firmly belive they know how to grade better than anyone else and that their opinon is always the correct one.

Maybe the person in your case did know he was puffing the grade but maybe to him/her they were being honest and fair.

steventheyn

After hearing the whole story I retract my previous response to this thread. I feel that keets had the oppurtunity to return it and he didn't. So therefore it's not dragons fault from then on.

gsaguy

I agree with Desert Lizard....Caveat emptor. Having said that, it's also a good idea to establish that there's a return policy.....no return policy, no buy.

Finally, NEVER let anyone SELL you a coin. If he's got to sell you on the piece, then you don't really like it to begin with. You should know within seconds of first looking at a coin if it has the eye appeal you want. You can then put a loop on it and determine if it's accurately graded and a keeper.

GSAGUY

jamesfsm

SAdly, there are Forum members who spend alot of time PM'ing others to sell them crap they could not hoist on eBay.

keets

he did offer a return privilege and that was what prompted the questions i spoke of in #3. i understand the whole event as a lesson learned in a lot of ways, but it tugs me the wrong way because this member represents himself as an expert in a particular series and other members trumpet that expertise. i trusted that and ended up getting singed though not completely burned. any suggestions on whether or not i should contact him? i will surely warn others of the way he deals, but in a tactful way. no need to slander. i had just expected better after being around here a while.

caveat emptor, amen.

al h.

mrdq

I'd think that any transaction on this forum is among friends and a no questions asked return would be in order. This isn't some shark tank where you need to watch your back, is it?

tom

Russ

This is a tough call since everybody has a different definition of "PQ". I've returned plenty of Kennedy halves to dealers who are supposed to specialize in "PQ" because they didn't meet my expectation of what a premium example should be. So many, in fact, that I'm beginning to think that it's really my own problem for being too picky.

Russ, NCNE

DHeath

It should be Tom. I know I would certainly go further to make sure a fellow member was satisfied even if I disagreed, because I would be sure my personal reputation was at risk. The last thing I would want to do is make an enemy over a few bucks. Al is a responsible man, and I'm sure he'll handle his situation in an appropriate way, but I would never sell anything to a forum member that wasn't returnable no questions asked. Al, that said, do you think the person in question is just guilty of overestimating his/her own ability?

keets

No.

al h.

IrishMike

Sounds like the coin was misrepresented to you, but you say he offered a return privilege. You should have returned it and not done business with him. I do not offer return privileges on my ebay items, but I have shipped a couple of dozen coins out to people here for a look see and every one of them stuck. I was under the impression that deals here always had return privileges, if not they should. Of course this should be between members who trust one another. I try only to buy coins with eye appeal, it seems like the fella who did business didn't. One of those life lessons. I hate to see that here, there is enough of that in the market place.

Cam40

Fine.Send me the damn coin back then...Geez,some people!!!!!!!!
hehe.
Just Kidding!!!!! Twasn`t me.
Sorry Keets.If you havnt been trolled atleast once,then you havnt been a CU member long enough.
You,ve graduated.(insert music,Pomp and Circumstance).There ya go,just flip your tassle to the other side.

Bear

Russ - When its your money being spent , I dont think you can be considered picky. Keep only those coins that meet your exacting standards. You are correct and will not be hurt if you keep to those standards. Regards Bear, another picky collector.

shirohniichan

I'd expect a return policy between forum members, especially if one pressured me to keep the coin because he knew the series better than anyone else.

Dog97

Since you didn't tell us the details about the grade the selling member represented it as and the grade it slabbed it's hard to comment on the "expert's" ethics. Was it a VF 1964 quarter that was really a Fine? Or was it a VF 93-S Morgan that graded Fine?

3. Once you receive the coin, you contact the seller because it seems overgraded or you are at least uncomfortable with it's appearance.
**The seller should have told you to send it back if you were not comfortable with it.**

4. The seller assures you that the coin is in fact PQ for the grade, and that since he is a specialist in the particular series you can be confident that the coin is correctly graded.
**A specialist's grade will be very close to what a grading company will slab it. He knows exactly what grade any company will give his coin because, well,.......he's a specialist. Specialists specialize in knowing those kind of things.**

golddigger

Mr keets, I saw that you just changed your story a bit and you now say it was already a holdered coin and that you all also got a high resolution scan of the coin before buying it, isn't that a big difference from what you all originally said? Were you offered a return option on the coin?

Dog97

Even though your story changed my opinion doesn't:
**The seller should have told you to send it back if you were not comfortable with it.**
Instead he talked you into keeping a bad coin.

Gilbert

ethical, shmethical

I think you should have sent it back for a refund.

Please clarify; the coin was downgraded, so it was already slabbed OR you submitted a raw coin and it didn't get the grade the "specialist" said it SHOULD get?

I think you should tell us who the "specialist" is, if he/she is so confident in their abilities, as to assert his opinion being more significant than yours; moreso, because in your 2nd post, you state the seller professes to be an expert and other members trumpet that expertise. PM me if that is more favorable to you, but, maybe the "trumpeting members" should know too.

I assume that this grade difference is one of significance, like said it was gem and it isn't, or said it was Unc and it isn't, or the lower grade is more than a few dollars difference.

keets

i edited the message because the seller PM'd me and was upset that i was trying to misinform the forum as to the actual events that took place. that isn't my intention and it is also not my intention to be rid of any responsibility in the transaction.

my main point is that he clearly represented himself as knowledgeable with regards to the type, and as such it should have been evident to him that the coin was overgraded. he states clearly in messages that it is in fact above average for the grade and one of his nicest coins. the truth is that after having run posted scans of the coin in a thread here no members would agree with that. no one who has viewed the coin in hand or in a scan agreed with the grade. yet he touts himself as one of the top collectors in his field.

al h.

stman

Keets, I 'm not taking sides either way, but didn't you say in post the slabbing company downgraded it right away?

So why did they grade it the first time the way they did? They are the experts that make their living at this. So maybe they admitted their mistake and thats good. And maybe the seller made a mistake also and that was his opinion. But you are not telling everything here and leaving too many blanks. I happen to know what coin you are talking about but that is as far as I will go on it.

mnmcoin

Keets, sorry to hear about this transaction...not much you can do except ask for your money back or at lease a fair buyback and never frequent the guy again. If the guy is willing to shoot himself in the foot over a particular amount of money than he is probably not going to last anyway. One thing I have learned of dealers and this is probably the situation here, is that as coin dealers get older, their eye sight goes and he probably took a shot to the ego when you disagreed and out of sheer stubborness went the opposite way he should have gone. Like I said not much you can really do...just learn from your mistake and move on.

morris <><

ps, I am sure we would all like to know more details...I sure would pm me if you like

stman

Well I'm going a little further, to give my feelings, I feel you are not telling everything here. If the coin was allready slabbed why not make that clear. You are asking for peoples take on this and leaving it very vague. And that might not be fair to seller. Also if slab company downgraded it won't you be receiving a refund or something? This is my feelings on this and if I am shunned for this oh well.

Dog97

I remember the thread where you posted it on the board here asking for opinions on it. I don't forget many DMPL CC Morgans. Everybody said it was a 64/65 when it was a 66 according to PCGS.
Now just who was this so called expert who convinced you that a flat struck Morgan with as giant dig right in front of the portrait that looked like a giant booger flying out of Liberty's nose was a 66?
Any idiot could see that wasn't a PQ 66.

keets

i edited the thread to indicate that the coin was slabbed.

my intention for being vague is to just stimulate some opinion about the ethical question at hand which for me comes down to misrepresentation. either you accurately portray your ability and knowledge about a series or you don't. how can someone claim expertise in an area and then not be able to know a coin is overgraded while it seems obvious to everyone else----except me of course!! DOH. that is the sticking point for me. and if the seller truly believed the coin to be the grade it was, he was less than honest about his statements regarding his expertise. if it's both ways, knows the series and knows the grade, therin lies the ethical dilemma.

al h.

jtryka

This is precisely why I really do not like to deal with folks on the board. I have sold two coins to a person on these boards and those two went great, but I really just acted as an agent for the person. I saw two coins that I thought this person would like, and asked him if he would be interested in them at the cost they would be for me (hence I sold them for what I paid for them and made no profit). He trusted my without even seeing the coins, and he was in no way disappointed. But, I would have taken them right back if he didn't like them, and made that perfectly clear from the outset. The problem I have with doing business with fellow boars members is having an arms length transaction. I just don't feel right making a profit off of any of you, so I end up doing such sales as a personal favor. The fact that such a favor could blow up completely makes me a little apprehensive. So unless I know you fairly well and like you, I won't make you any personal offers, instead you can just bid on my coins on eBay with everyone else. Unfortunately I think this is kinda sad, as I'm sure there are many ways we can help each other with collecting as different geographic areas seem to have different supplies. Where I live you can't sell a circ bust half to save your life, but I'm sure there are some of you that would love them. In the same way, stuff I collect my be scarce here, but plentiful where other board members live. I apologize for such a long winded response, but as board members, we should treat each other with the same respect and honesty as we would any other person if not more so (such as my no profiting off board members rule). Part of that dealing fairly also means trying to work things out with each other as best we can, in private. Only in the event that outright fraud has occurred should we air the dirty laundry and warn the rest of the board. Just my lowly opinion though.

ARCO

Grading is subjective. But when someone solicits you then you need to always use caution. More so if they are touting themselves as a specialist in anything. Big frickin' whoopity do!

If the coin doesn't suit you, return it. If the seller protests...tough! you weren't begging for it. It wasn't put on Ebay and charges incurred. Just someone passing off his sub par wares onto you.

Coins = Money, and money is hard earned with blood sweat and tears and a little tax evasion

Tyler

DCAMFranklin

Keets-
I'm absolutely amazed at how many Members read your nicely detailed explanation of what happened and missed the fact that a return privilege WAS offered prior to the coin being purchased. I'm also very disappointed to find that many of the Members who have strongly expressed the need for strong business ethics and profess to be principled individuals are now completely ready to sell you down the river for no other reason than they know the perpetrator is one of their own and they are too chicken to call one of their own a crook. Many of those claiming "caveat emptor" and saying you were sure to get clipped sometime are also the very same Members that are all too quick to call sellers on Ebay, who are not members, crooks, thiefs, frauds etc. Though this is my first reply, I have been reading the Forum for quite some time. The clear HYPOCRISY of some Members is extremely disappointing. In my opinion, you have been shown great restraint and professionalism. The seller has shriveled into his corner and refused to offer the return you are due, refused to offer a partial refund, defend himself or even OWN UP TO HIS DEED! His chicken attitude proves him to be pretty slimey and definitely someone to stay away from. I hope you will NAME the individual and give everyone on the Forum the opportunity to stay clear of his coins. This so-called "EXPERT" should be exposed for what he is - a poor grader, with NO expertise and HORRIBLE business practices.

stman

Keets I understand, but my main point is that the slabbing company is supposed to be experts in their field and they slabbed it that way in the first place. So maybe the seller just agreed with their grade as many people do. As far as ethics are concerned only you and him know the details. I think you should have returned it too him when you didn't like coin in the first place. But I have given benifit of dought before. Allways go with your gut feeling.

Edited to add, I do not know who the seller is and am not siding with such, just giving a little devils advocate.

Dog97

Most of you guys are missing the point!!
It was originally slabbed by MS66 DMPL by PCGS.
A expert that has examined many thousands of Morgans and knows more about them than anybody else here convinces a less knowledgable collector that that it is PQ for the grade. PQ means almost the next higher grade.
Keets posts it here asking for opinions. Everybody tells him that basically that he got a junky coin.
Keets sent it through PCGS's regrade service where they agree and regrade it MS65 DMPL.
He's not flaming anybody but rather asking if it's cool for dealers to overhype their coins.

coynclecter

You took the sellers opinion , always a mistake.

You were offered a return priviledge, you didn't take it. A return priviledge doesn't last for years. A week would be more than fair. The seller can't hold your money for money while you resubmit it for an upgrade.

"After a period of time" you resubmitted it and it was downgraded. We all know PCGS is downgrading right now, I just had 3 of them downgraded.

"The seller was an expert and should have known the grade." Heck even PCGS can grade the same coin the same grades twice.

What you have is buyers remorse because you didn't get a good deal. Why did you resubmit the coin?? Looking for an Upgrade??? Would you be asking for a refund if it had come back graded higher????

You have good cause not to feel comfortable dealing with the seller again but no cause to slander them. Next time send the coin back immediately if you are unhappy.

keets

DCAM

the seller offered me a return policy when i purchased the coin and the decision to keep it was mine. the thing is that i based my decision in large part on his input and knowledge. SHAME ON ME!!! i've had PM's with him since the thread started and he still insists that the coin is MS66DMPL and PQ. i'll link to the thread here in a minute. look at the scans and see what you think.


al h.

keets

coyneclector

the reason i was upset is because i found myself with a coin worth approximately 25% of what i had paid for it. i was remorsefull as heck!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have not slandered anyone. i have the PM's to back all the claims i have made. and i nowhere stated that i expected the seller to give me a refund after X amount of time.

I MADE A MISTAKE AND ACCEPT THAT. can i put it any clearer than that. but there is culpability on the sellers part, also. and if you don't understand that point of the thread i can't help you. i was the fish here and if anyone reading this thread can at least get that, then it has served us well. some of us here will do whatever it takes to sell our overgraded material. there is something unethical about that. i was coerced, that is on me. but there is culpability on the sellers part also.

al h.

wallstreetman

DCAMFranklin, Your my kind of people!
keets, I just edited my statement to you! I just read dragons post. I want to know one thing before I make a comment. Did he try an make you feel quilty about returning the coin or did he flat out tell you send it back?

braddick

The MOMENT you receive a coin you should decide if it's a keeper or not. If you hesitate, if you are uncertain- even after viewing it, placing it down, stepping away, and then picking it up again- RETURN IT. You will never grow to "love" a coin and will eventually sell (get rid of) it and probably at a loss.
Regardless, you should have certainly returned it within a week? If it is much after that I would think you then own the coin and the seller may then move on with his purpose of funds received.

crito

doesn't PCGS have a grade guarantee? I thought they compensate you for the 25% difference in situations like this. Would definitely be unethical to take PCGS' money and then expect a full refund from the seller too.

keets

somewhere it's been misunderstood that i expect the seller to honor a return now and that isn't the case. my timing for the thread is that it was just downgraded by PCGS. a super duper PQ better than any other MS66DMPL around was downgraded. we're talking about a coin that i was told by the seller in a phone conversation that if it wasn't for the booger by liberty's nose it would be a 67 and a $15K-$20K coin. oh well. we need to do a poll on its grade. but we don't need to do a poll on my gullability!!

al h.

braddick

What if this was a coin that turned into a PCGS MS67? Would the original seller then be due part of the $13,000.00 upgrade?! Of course not.
It was sold, in the PCGS holder, as an MS66. What it does on another day is a different chapter- one the original seller plays NO roll in writing.

crito

That's quite a price difference! Now I remember why I don't collect Morgans

Rotts

From what i've read greed took over on your part.The old something for nothing trick.You should be mad at pcgs not the seller.The seller was only giving an opinion(opinions are like a--holes everybody has one)and you bought into it.I buy what i want and live with it.The only person i have to be mad at is myself,if i make a mistake in a coin.Take the advice from people,then use it or lose it.But blame no one but yourself.I do feel for you but the wiser man learns from his mistakes and goes on to collect another morgan on a better day.Smile-it could have been a house you bought from the guy.....rotts

stman

I really feel this thing should have been hashed out in private.

Oh yea, I still think it is a nice looking coin. Just curious if this would have been in 65 holder when you bought it, and you paid 65 money,

Would you have been happy with it or still sent it back to pcgs?

crito

Sell it to a big time PCGS dealer and then post the auction link when it gets into a 67 holder (after a dozen more submissions.)

keets

the coin is in the appropriate holder at MS65DMPL. if you think otherwise, that it will get the bump back up to MS66DMPL, i'll gladly sell it to you for 66 money cause that's what it's worth, right? that's an example of greed.

braddick, i'm lost on your whole take on this. your comments usually make sense. maybe you need a nap. look at the coin and tell me it has a shot at 67 and i'll tell you to put down the crack pipe. just part of the hypocrocy on the board to think that someone wouldn't send a coin in that was overgraded. we just try to get more money by playing that game. i'm only trying to break even here. i'll have a holdered MS65DMPL and a check for the difference. what do you think the value of a 66 is? what dragon sold it for to me? he's such a nice guy that he sells all his PQ coins at cost. if you wanna believe that go ahead. he got over on me. screw me and hooray for him. maybe you need to get into his ethical boat and row.

al h.

DCAMFranklin

braddick-
I don't think keets is in anyway inferring he is due a return today. At the time he received the coin, I think he very well understood he was dealing with a time deadline for a refund. I think that is why he created the original thread, back in mid-July, asking for Members' opinions as to the accurate grade of the coin. As Dog said, "Everybody tells him that basically he got a junky coin". During that very lengthy thread, waaaayyy back in July, you never saw Dragon (he's now fessed up to being the perpetrator) own up to the fact that the scans were of a coin he sold to keets. Why not? That was the time to air this thing, so keets could receive the return to which he was entitled!! However, he slid off to the corner and tried to hide in the dark of the internet. Keets has been very professional, considerate and has shown Dragon more courtesy than he deserves. Had you been treated this way, can you say you would have provided the seller the same anonimity as has keets? I'm not sure many of us would!

Here is the real question. Let's examine what keets said in his 4th point of his original post:

4. The seller assures you that the coin is in fact PQ for the grade, and that since he is a specialist in the particular series you can be confident that the coin is correctly graded.

All any Member needs to know is this. Did the "big EXPERT" apply pressure and intimidate the much less experienced buyer into NOT exercising his return privilege?? If keets was made to feel intimidated by Dragon's expertise as the "specialist", so Dragon wouldn't have to cough up the almost $2,000 purchase price, then I don't think anyone should feel any confidence in purchasing coins from such an "expert". Remember, back in mid-July, the Members seemed to agree the coin was only deserving of a MS-64 or MS-65 DMPL grade and a few people felt the coin was worthy of only a PL grade.

crito

I don't remember the members name, the copper coin guy (and I'm too lazy to search for the thread,) but he's posted several examples of coins he sold that later show up one to TWO points higher (and they weren't PQ either.) I'd like to believe this is a result of numerous submissions and sleepy graders, rather than PCGS playing favorites, but don't really know. In any case, that's the way the slabbing game is played. Kinda sux, but it's better than the alternative, BCGS and DCGS (braddick's and dragon's coin grading services.)

golddigger

Mr Keets, It seems like your story changes every 10 minutes. First you say you didn't return the original coin because you were duped by the seller and the PCGS grade. Now you say the coin is appropriately graded lower. If you all think it is appropriately graded now why did you buy it to begin with? You sound very confused to me and I dont think the seller did anything wrong.