NGC's Star*
pmh1nic
Posts: 3,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
There was a thread on the Registry Set Forum that branched off into a discussion of the NGC Star. I haven't had much experience examining coins with the star so I can't offer an opinion. I'd like to hear the opinion of those that have had the opportunity to examine some of these star coins on whether they've found the coins to be consistently PQ for the grade. Are the coins with the star consistently on the high end of the grade?
Disclaimer: Consistent or not the star in no way alleviates the buyer from his responsibility to examine the coin for himself and decide to the best of his knowledge if it has been accurately graded and deserves the PQ designation
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Disclaimer: Consistent or not the star in no way alleviates the buyer from his responsibility to examine the coin for himself and decide to the best of his knowledge if it has been accurately graded and deserves the PQ designation
. The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
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Comments
<< <i>Are the coins with the star consistently on the high end of the grade? >>
In my opinion some are and some are not. As I posted in the Registry Forum on a whole NGC is doing pretty good with this designation in most series, but most of the stars that were given out to the Binion dollars, were again in my opinion not deserving of coins that could be classified with exceptional eye appeal.
<< <i>Disclaimer: Consistent or not the star in no way alleviates the buyer from his responsibility to examine the coin for himself and decide to the best of his knowledge if it has been accurately graded and deserves the PQ designation >>
My thoughts in a nutshell.
If PCGS had used the star people would bash it saying it was a way to lure the collector in to resubmitting it for an upgrade.
I like the W, you are protected if the coin turns black or gets ugly toning because NGC said it was white. But they dropped it....hmmm...musta been costing them too much money in grading guarantees.
A star is just an enticement for resubmittials. If they wanted to REALLY let us stupid collectors who don't know how to judge our coins know it is a nice coin why don't they grade it MS-65.8 for example so us stupid collectors who don't know how to judge our coins know where we really stand with our coins?
Sounds like a gimmick to me.
The STAR is a wonderful tool- coupled with your own ability to grade.
-Anytime an educated source wants to praise my coin, with no attachment to me or the coin, I'll take it!
peacockcoins
I guess it's NGC's way of trying to avoid market grading while also giving a potential buyer the suggestion that the coin is probably worth more than a non star coin of the same grade for its eye appeal.
My 2¢.
i guess it is a starting point
but like others pointed out some stars leave much to be desired
the ultimate would to buy a coin you like with great eye appeal and then have a star on the holder guess it could nt hurt!! sort of a bonus when buying the coin
sincerely michael
<< <i>The star as I understand has nothing to do with the coins grade it's just supposed to mean a coin has exceptional eye appeal. >>
Exactly! The coin can be from a low end to a high end in it's grade, and still qualify for the designation.
it's like saying "that car is beautiful" which is highly subjective.
don't like the star.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
NGC Definition of the STAR
My 2 cents, I do not like the star but I suppose everyone already knows that by not.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I like the STAR.
peacockcoins
The ones that I have seen were in dealer's cases at shows sitting with a whole bunch of other coins, in this case a bunch of old washingtons. When giving the entire case a prliminary glance one coin caught my eye immediately because of it's beauty. Looking at the slab it was an NGC '*' 1935 Washington in MS65. It was sitting with a few others of the same date in MS66 and one in MS67. The '*' was by far the prettiest, so I bought it. The dealer wasn't asking for a premium either.
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
The ms star coins I have seen so far have been great.
There is a oregon trail ms67 * that looks like it's wet it has so much luster.
.....that being said .....logic tells me todays STAR* has a better shot in 2 years than those that dont!!!!!!!!!!!
if you disagree with that logic then look to be pasted over in your next employment evaluatuion for promotion
bill
i always like people who know why they believe ...what they believe ...for it is the basis for higher thinking...while we dont agree on some things there are numerous issues im sure we would agree.....i like the fact you think on your own ( thats not saying others here dont because they do but might of just refrained from stating their " 2 cents")
tonelover
>>>>>>.I've always liked NGC, but not their * and "white" designation. I don't need anytone to tell me if a coin is toned or not, or if they happen to think it's particularly high on eye appeal.>>>>>
im sure you know you go agaisnt the norm here....i always enjoyed it when i made a pod ( play of the day ) and it was showed on tv......in fact i have never met anyone who said ..." awe dont show my pod "....until you.....i am not familiar with people who work their butts off doing something ( be it coin collecting ...sports....the work place...charity work....millitary or what ever ) and turned down the accolades that might come their way
>>>>>>ANOYONE WHO DOESNT WANT THE .......STAR*.....has something to hide>>>>>>>>
this is a broad statement by me which was i exagerated to make a point.......i guess i know someone now who doesnt want the recognition of owning a premier piece.....you.........i`ll bet you love it when at work another person gets the laurels for something you started or invented....im sure you will like it when they pass out the merit pay raises too.........if you were in the military ...im sure you would love to save a platoon of men and hand over your medal of honor to the next guy.........i could go on and on a million senarios but you get my point
>>>>>>> I have a few coins that would likely get the designation if I sent them back, but I couldn't care less about it and have no intention of getting it done. Does that really mean I have something to hide, or I have done a poor job of collecting and the results are shown in my collection, or I am up to something that is no good?>>>>>
i know you could care less....and it makes me wonder!!!!!!no you have nothing to hide ......but maybe your hiding your brain!!!!because i cant for the life of me see it!!!!
so your saying when it comes time to sell you will take potenially less money for your hard work ...and that is someting i dont understand......i can understand you not wanting the extra $$$ or not needing it...but your heirs could maybe use it or you could maximize your returns and do something good for charity....build a building for the church or school with the extra dough
FACTIOD:...the most important person at an auction is the underbidder for it is he who makes the winner pay the price he paid
that being said i regret to inform you that the STAR* would never hurt the number of bidders at your auction it will ONLY HELP...the fact is ....it might just help keep some of those paddles in the air a little longer ....yes there is a good chance a guy might just say ...geez i need that STAR* coin for my center piece of my set and stick his hand up .....and keep it there a little longer.....fact is if you had a bunch of STAR * coins ....you just might have several people keeping their paddles in the air coin after coin
NOW THE ABOVE IS A FACT....AND IF YOU CONTEST IT...THAN..YOU ARE .....?????????
so now tell me ....please give me a logical reason why on earth you
>>>>>>>>have no intention of getting it done>>>>>>>>>>>
pleae make it good so we can all understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>l prefer to look past these games and focus on the real issue, which is the pursuit of coins I like>>>>>>>
and please dont play this card..........because if you like ugly......great ....buy ugly.......i know there is a guy building the ugliest set...you can compete with him....do you buy strike.........great buy strike....if your series demands strike ....im sure you will be competitive.......what is exactly "coin i like"?.....while we all dont like the same things ....and everyone is entitled to their opinion.........but when your blinking down your hard earned cash ...and the cash amount surpasses what i call the "disposable entertainment level" and goes into the " i better be responsible level "........YOU HAD BETTER LIKE WHAT THE MAJORITY LIKES OR YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR MONEY
*******with that said please .....please .....please give me some solid logic of your opinions.......for logic says that your opinions will only cost you money.....and i dont understand*****************
>>>>>. I don't need anytone to tell me if a coin is toned or not, or if they happen to think it's particularly high on eye appeal>>>>>
or this
>>>>>>>have no intention of getting it done>>>>>>>
i ......no.......... we.......are waiting!!!!!!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
if someone told me that a Dodge Viper was fast - i couldn't argue. they could tell me that the paint is nearly flawless. i could verify their statements. they could vouch for it's authenticity, they could prove it had never been waxed, driven etc.
now if they told me that it's a beautiful car - i would beg to differ. it has tons of unnecessary holes and wings and vents on a visually poor overall design, to me it's not an aestetically appealing car.
much the same way we argue about toning and whether or not it's appealing while still accepting the technical merits of a coin.
btw - i would much sooner send my coins to NGC than PCGS and value their opinion as much or more, so that issue is a dead one.
BAN THE STAR!
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
So NGC is saying eye-appeal has nothing to do with grade and that a PQ coin does not need to have exceptional eye appeal.
Is this the same guy that said there was no such thing as the 70 grade just before NGC started handing out the 70 grade as often as ICG, PCI, & ACG?
John Maben blows everything we know about grading coins right out of the water!!
Should I
al h.
For the most part I've never been too worried about what any particular grading service called a coin's grade and consequently I'm not too impressed with NGC's star designation as well. Those of you who have seen my collection of Morgans know that I'm not big fan of certified slabs since most of my coins are not certified. In fact, most were removed from slabs....some with lofty grades.
Perhaps it's only when I'm wearing my 'dealer's cap' that I concerned with the grading service's opinion. Having said that, I'm still not impressed with NGC's star designation.
To give you a first hand idea of my thoughts, I need only reflect on what happened at the ANA. I had purchased a remarkable 58-D Washington Quarter that possessed some of the most incredible mint set toning I'd ever seen. The coin graded MS67 at PCGS. Late one day I took it to NGC and talked to their staff about getting it certified as a mint state 68 with the reverse facing out since I thought it was the better side of the coin. They said they couldn't place the reverse facing out and when I persisted, they called Mark Salsberg to talk to me.
Mark explained it was against their policies to do so and that they'd not change them just for me. When I finally relented, I asked him that he give careful consideration to my view that the coin would grade MS68. He took a quick look at the piece and said, "well, it's definitely a 67 and will likely get our 'star' designation." I commented, "with all due respect, the last time I got excited about a star was when I was in kindergarten. I believe the coin's a 68 and would like to you look at it carefully and consider the coin's incredible eye appeal in your decision." He said he would.
Well, much to my surprise and pleasure, the coin did indeed grade MS68 and I sold it for a tidy profit.
As for Monsterman's comments about liking NGC's star designation, I guess that surprises me. I say so because Monsterman knows what he's doing while he's out there buying undervalued coins. I would have thought that the star designation would only be a tip-off for those that don't recognize above average eye appeal for a given series and would therefore create more competition for him.
Thanks all!!!
GSAGUY
Camelot
I like gsa's kindergarten comment too.
If I dealt in more NGC coins, I might like the * from a financial perspective if they brought more dough, though I'd shudder to think about all the regrades I'd have to send in due to sight-unseen buyers wanting only * coins.
* Usually asterisks refer you to some nasty fine print somewhere.
I know very little about the * designator, but here is how I think it would be:
1. If I only had limited time to go through boxes, and lets say a dealer has a PCGS box, an NGC box, and a box of only NGC * coins, I would go through the PCGS box first, then the NGC * box.
2. If I was planning an expensive purchase on an NGC coin, and it wasn't a * coin, I might be afraid of what was then wrong with the coin (mostly if buying sight unseen of course). If the dealer is saying things like "Great eye appeal", but there is no *, is it just an old holder, or not?
3. If I bought several NGC * coins and was happy with them, I would continue to look for them.
JJacks
I hear people on here all the time preaching, learn how to grade and I don't disagree, but guess what some one needs to voice that opinion to the services. You know what I think NGC listened, for what ever reason. Eye appeal is the single most important criteria in coin grading and to see some of us discount that and at the same time rave about full bands, which you can't see with the naked eye or full steps same thing and the grading services can't even agree what constitutes full steps, same thing with full bell lines, with some of the toning on Frankies, its almost impossible to tell. I will agree that on SLQ's its fairly easy to determine full heads.
Some of the people I respect most on here have spent time posting about their grading classes and how difficult it is and even that the graders disagreed on what grade to put on a coin. So those of you who feel cheapened by a grading service thinking a coin has superior eye appeal, keep on buying coins on ebay or other sites and being disappointed. Of course now I explect a flurry of posts from those who have never been disappointed and know how to grade. Sorry it won't fly I've read too many posts here not to know other wise.
Seems to me that NGC has given you just about all they can. They are removing outstanding eye appeal as a factor in the numerical grade. They are doing their best to meet your concerns about esthetic factors in the actual grade of the coin. Instead of giving them their due, you're all up in arms to ban the star.
NGC knows that in the past they've let eye appeal outweigh surface condition. This is their way of righting the boat without losing their own flair for grading. I, for one, like the concept.
i won't chime in about never being dissappointed or brag about how good i can i grade. you made good points at the start of the post regarding washingtons cause i have a hard time with that series, also. and your comments about the different strike designations is a good one. the place where you lose me, though, is with eye appeal. and i won't say that NGC gets it wrong when they assign a star or bicker about how such and such a percentage of people would agree with them. the bottom line for me is that what is attractive to my eyes isn't always what someone else is seeing.
when i look over a dealers inventory from 2-3 feet at a show table i don't really notice the writing on the holders till i pick up the coins. i use my own sense of eye appeal and go from there. the last show i was at there was a bust half that was head and shoulders above most of the coins i saw all day. it was an 1820/19 NGC MS62 and i can't tell you whether or not it had the star. the point is, it was worthy of it , would probably receive it if requested and without a doubt in my mind DIDN"T need it. the coin as holdered could carry the day without the need to tell every viewer that it was PQ. therin lies the reason why i feel the star is maybe a nice novelty but mostly unnecessary. to shout those well worn words, buy the coin and not the holder.
al h.
NGC*
NGC(no star)
Collecting Dollars
So, is the star because of fewer marks? Shouldn't that be what the grade is for? It seems to me the * is another point of confusion we don't need.
But if the asking price difference between the two actually materializes, there's at least one dealer whose wish upon a star came true.
And it's not in an NGC or MS68 holder, either.
Camelot
<< <i>Waaaaaaaaaa, now I want to collect Ike Dollers. >>
Naw. No you don't. I mean, you REALLY don't. Ugly lackluster coins! Who needs them? Just stay away... far away.
(These puppies in high grades are already too expensive as it is! -Certainly don't need another high roller playing the Ike game! Of course, this wouldn't be what is motivating me to discourage bear, right?!)
peacockcoins
Collecting Dollars
Hmm... don't see a star though... I'll give you 67 money for it.
Camelot
“I know some people have said that my Eisenhower head is too simple,” he says, “but, what the heck, the man was plain – a simple, direct man – and that’s why people liked him. He was a simple person, and I kept it that way. I believe if I had done it over, I wouldn’t have done it any different.”
And the reverse, c'mon! One of the best we've got. Not like, oh, let's say just slap a Presidential seal on there. Not naming names.
Camelot
This debate has been insightful for many reasons. IrishMike's observation on the mushy strikes of silver Washington Quarters is just one example. But what I really like about this discussion is that we're talking about NGC, and not PCGS. Competition is healthy, and the grading services need competition. PCGS needs competition to get better, and I think NGC is trying to close the gap with their star designation. Not everyone likes it, to be sure, but we are talking about it, and a little publicity never hurts. What I'm trying to conclude is that we as collectors and customers need the gap to close between NGC and PCGS in order for the slabbing process to improve, to get better customer service, to have more confidence in the product. What can a grading service do to get better? Not put fingerprints on coins? Well yes, but they have to be careful first, and what better way to be careful than to look over one's shoulder? ICG keeps trying to give away grading coupons, thinking that putting more product into the market will improve their standing. Hasn't worked, has it? NGC's approach has been to use the designations we've been discussing (T,W, *). From my observations, the tide is starting to turn. In the past few months, more of my NGC coins are selling. Perhaps that's due to a hot market, but still, I wonder if confidence in NGC is strenghtening. Hope so, PCGS needs it!
The helpful parts of this discussion, among many points, is that debate is healthy, leading to new observations and conclusions. I also laughed at GSAguy's comment about not needing a star since kindergarden (hey it was funny-didn't you and I talk about that at Santa Clara?). So, I've changed my mind, not because I need a star on my coins, but because I realized that for a change, I'm starting to submit a few more coins to NGC, so I'm just trying to see the bigger picture here, as well as wondering where the grading services are headed. Toward real improvement, or perhaps just a really big bonfire one day (rather nihilistic, but will grading services last without improvement?).
'Flame, On!'
WILD THING.......I THINK I LOVE YA.....BUT I GOTTA KNOW FOR SURE
GOD I LOVE THIS GAME!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
pcgs has + ngc has star same difference. once again im wrong and they line up to attack me for it. oh to be perfect like them
Not only is it annoying that you keep bringing up these 20-year-old threads but you're wrong.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
NGC also uses + grades and the NGC star isn’t the same as a plus grade. Said differently, it’s not “same difference”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
what does the star mean then? obviously ihad it all wrong from the start. im here to learn
I see nothing in your behavior that suggests you are here to learn. You drag up old threads and make a two or three word comment, often wrong. If you want to learn then stop posting and read more.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/post-your-ngc-stars-and-a-little-history.308504/
In the simplest terms: "NGC assigns its trademarked Star Designation to coins with exceptional eye appeal for their assigned grade"
This "exceptional eye appeal" usually breaks down into three major categories.
It’s not true about EBay. I have bought some excellent coins on their site. You need to be picky and try and buy from sellers with a good track record of satisfied customers.
As far as the star I don’t believe in it due to the lack of consistency by NGC. For it to be the real deal it needs to be virtually acceptable to almost all collectors as having exceptional eye appeal. Too many of their coins with a star are NOT amazing and some are unattractive period. So do away with the star ⭐️ if you can’t do it right
u1 chicago thank you for the information i do appreciate it.. and as for you coin buff keep your sniping to yourself your as bad as the other bullies on this site.
Ouch you have hurt my feelings.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.