GAI "Wax Pack Grading"

carkim

At the National I strolled past the GAI booth and noticed they were grading wax packs. I must say, I LOVE THIS IDEA.

I actually was looking to buy one while I was at the show, but didn't run across any dealers with them at their table.

If PSA started grading wax packs and listed them on the PSA set registry by decade...I would put together a run of 1970-79 wax packs.

What does everyone else think about this "NEW FAD/FASHION"

Carlos

CDC4

Did Mark Murphy have any graded packs at his booth?

69topps8

I think he's charging $50 a throw for grading. If so, I doubt we'll see any '70s packs in graded form.

carkim

Did Mark Murphy have any graded packs at his booth?

I was at his table for some time and didn't see any.

Carlos

Mantlefan

I spoke to Mark Murphy about this idea. The packs will be graded 1-9, except for packs directly from a case, which can get a "10" grade. I thought the fees were a bit high, but pack authentication is a good idea. One thing which did concern me was that Mark would be grading and selling his own packs! Hmm, I wonder how many "9"s he'll have for sale?

MickeyC

<< <i>I Hmm, I wonder how many "9"s he'll have for sale? >>



This was discussed here a few weeks ago. I don't know why anyone in their right mind would submit to him, knowing he's grading and selling his own.

Turns my stomach.

Mark

crazysc

<< <i>

<< <i>I Hmm, I wonder how many "9"s he'll have for sale? >>



This was discussed here a few weeks ago. I don't know why anyone in their right mind would submit to him, knowing he's grading and selling his own.

Turns my stomach.

Mark >>



And I'm sure Superior/CU don't have any such conflicts...

TheCARDKid

He took out a 2 page ad in SCD a week or two ago introducing it. It described a fee schedule that went up and down depending upon the market value of the pack.

It's a long overdo concept. But it does concern me that he'll be grading wax and then selling the very stuff he's authenticating. Not much objectivity there.

It should have a pretty big impact on the sales on Ebay for example. Instead of '86 Fleer boxes not meeting the reserve at $5k, maybe they'll start selling for $8k or more like they should. And it should be interesting to see what happens to the 50's and 60's packs on Ebay. Could they see 50-100% increases in price?

69topps8

I'm not sure if I'll grade out my pack collection. I think I'll wait and see how well he does. It would be nice to get them in a protective holder but I don't intend to sell them, so the grading isn't that important to me. It would be interesting to see if he would authenticate them. Especially since some of them were purchased from him over the past several years.

Mitochondria

I agree with several members of this board in that there is a serious conflict of interest when someone sells material that they personally grade. I am a strong proponent of grading/authenticating packs/cellos and racks. Furthermore, I feel that Mark Murphy's expertise is invaluable to this concept. However, the challenge of separating his objectivity from the profit margin (in regards to selling graded packs) is formidable. Previously, the "conflict of interest" situation was brought up with the PSA/ Superior Auction relationship. However, this arrangement has not been a significant barrier to many of the veteran collectors.

Ron

1420sports

Here is a dumb question: Is the ENTIRE pack graded, or is it opened and individual cards graded? Not being in the wax pack collecting arena, I would have a hard time buying one and NOT opening it

Is it obvious to tell if someone ever opened a pack and resealed it?

mikeschmidt

Neal:

It is the unopened pack that is graded.

It is very hard to tell if someone has opened and resealed a pack if it is done professionally. Sloppy jobs can be identified if you work enough with unopened packs/boxes/cases, but expert jobs usually look pretty sharp...

MS

1420sports

Thanks for the clarification Marc.

Does anyone know someone who bought an ultra expensive/rare unopened pack (1952 Topps, 57 Xmas rack, Etc) and pulled a Mantle, Mays, etc PSA 9? Being a gambler by nature, and if I had the money to buy one, I would have to open it.

Anyone who has these packs in their collection - I admire your patience, resistance, and stamina!

carkim

1420sports,

I think if the pack was in a holder I would be better able to resist the temptation of opening it.

Carlos

P.S.

Let me see if I understand what I am reading... Does Mark Murphy grade the packs for GAI?

aro13

carkim-Yes.

carkim

When did that marriage happen? Are they located in the same city? Or are the packs shipped to Murphy directly.

TheCARDKid

I believe all the cards in the XMas racks are exmint-near mint at best (they were left over cards from Topps). Probably the most famous card pulled from an unopened pack in the last 10 years was the '52 Topps #1 PSA 10 Pafko. It sold for $80+ grand a few years ago and had come from a recently unopened pack.

Another famous unopened pack story was the box of '59 Topps that was opened up (there was a story in SMR about it awhile ago). Plenty of PSA 9 stars. Unreal.

To me, vintage unopened wax in the original display box is the coolest stuff in the world. If I'm going to open up something, it has to be more recent and not as rare (such as '86 Fleer basketball or '79 Topps Hockey). If I came across something extraordinary, like a '57 Topps nickel pack, there's no way in the world I'd open it. It's like a vintage unopened bottle of wine. It only gets better with age.

aro13

carkim. Good questions. I know when Rocchi was at PSA he talked about the concept with Murphy and when he went to GAI he took the idea with him. I have no idea where Murphy does the grading.

1420sports

The CardKid - good point .... it would be a nice collectible item to display

What is the deal with GAI? I know why it happened but I also heard the grading is not as tough as PSA.

Anyone hear different?

qualitycards

It would be interesting to see if he would authenticate them. Especially since some of them were purchased from him over the past several years.
1969TOPPS8 - What a kick in the head if some come back as "tampered" with...jay

gemint

Not accusing him of anything but I bought a '66 nickle pack from him through the mail that fails his 'corner fold' inspection criteria. I would not have bought that pack from someone off the street but didn't return it to him because he's been a reliable source in the past. It's quite possible it's a factory miswrap but who knows?

joker73

FWIW, here's one of "the very first" to hit eBay ...

1957 cello pack

It's somewhat hard to tell from the scans if the pack can move around in the holder or not, but he says that they're pretty easy to open (if you're feeling lucky ). I'm not into pack collecting personally, but I now agree with those on the board who are worried about the conflict of interest issues. He is the "main authenticator" for GAI, and, by virtue of having more unopened stuff than almost anyone, he will also end up being the "main seller" of the graded packs. Thus, any additional premium that comes to be associated with authenticated packs would primarily benefit him.

I thought the reason why his unopened material already commanded a premium was because of his expertise - why should GAI's additional stamp of approval add any more value to an item? Not trying to start trouble, just an honest question ...

Robert <joker73>

carkim

A LITTLE BACKGROUND ON GLOBAL AUTHENTICATION AND THE UNOPENED PACK AUTHENTICATION. I AM THE MAIN AUTHENTICATOR FOR ALL UNOPENED MATERIAL. I WANT TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT ALL MATERIAL THAT I SELL THAT IS GLOBAL AUTHENTICATED IS VERIFIED BY ONE OF OUR OTHER PACK AUTHENTICATORS AFTER I CHECK IT FIRST. THEY ARE PAUL WRIGHT OR KIETH SMITH. WE ARE CURRENTLY ACCEPTING SUBMISSIONS FOR ALL UNOPENED MATERIAL, YOU CAN EMAIL ME FOR DETAILS OR WITH ANY QUESTIONS. THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE THE UNOPENED PACK MARKET FOR THE BETTER AND FINALLY GIVE COLLECTORS AND DEALERS A SAFE WAY TO BUY AND COLLECT ALL UNOPENED MATERIAL. GOOD LUCK ON ONE OF GLOBALS FIRST EVER AUTHENTICATED PACKS, IT'S A GREAT ONE ! ALSO ABOUT THE HOLDER, IT IS A SOFTER PLASTIC SO IF ANYONE WANTS TO OPEN THE PACKS, THE CAN BE CUT OPEN DOWN THE SIDE OF THE HOLDER. THE HOLDER IS ALSO TAMPER EVIDENT TO PREVENT ANY TAMPERING. IT'S MADE OF A DURABLE CLEAR PLASTIC WHICH WILL PROTECT AND PRESERVE ALL UNOPENED MATERIAL THAT IS AUTHENTICATED.


This is from the auctions item description...Sorry about the cap locks.

Carlos

BBNUT

Well, Paul Wright was the unopened pack guru way before the bbkid. I thought he lived on the West Coast. Will the pack to be authenticated travel all over the country before it gets slabbed?
There is several low key collectors that have gobs of unopened stuff but want no publicity. It is so neat to look at the stuff you bought in the 50s and 60s.

GangstaJayson

Sorry carlos i know you like the idea... But i think it is just a horrible idea....Espically when and cased up pack gets an automatic ten....So if it is like that then any card i get out of a fresh opened pack should get a nine....We all know it dosent work that way....And by the last look at your submission form you need to get at least 7's lol...

TheCARDKid

BBNUT,

What kind of unopened material do these low profile collectors have? Nickel packs, boxes from the '50's? Pre war stuff? The thing about vintage unopened wax is that it hardly ever trades in the marketplace. You'll see other rare items, like PSA 9 Ruths, Hornsbys or Cobbs more often at auction than you'll see a '55 Topps nickel pack. I'd love to know how much authentic vintage wax is still available.

MickeyC

<< <i>FWIW, here's one of "the very first" to hit eBay ...

why should GAI's additional stamp of approval add any more value to an item? Not trying to start trouble, just an honest question ...

Robert <joker73> >>



I posted this somewhere in another thread, but here goes...

Murphy's first ads in SCD regarding authenticating/grading packs, cases, and boxes mentioned this service helping to "get a true market value for that 86/87 Fleer box"...or something along those lines.

I witnessed at least two of Murphy's auctions for an 86/87 Fleer box where there were zero bids, and a Buy It Now for $9,500. His thinking is, if it's authenticated, it will command a price that he/the market sees as a more fair (fairer?) price than if it wasn't authenticated.

He's got his fingers so deep in this and collectors don't see it.

Geez.

Mark

69topps8

gangsta - I understand your point but I think the pack grade is based on the condition of the pack, not the cards inside. For example, if the pack has visible wear on the corners, it wouldn't get a 9 or an 8. Now, if boxes are pulled from a fresh case but the packs are damaged (maybe the case was dropped), would they be given 10's? That's the question to ask.

carkim

Now, if boxes are pulled from a fresh case but the packs are damaged (maybe the case was dropped), would they be given 10's? That's the question to ask.

I was just about to ask the same question.

Gangsta and I were talking about this at the show, but didn't seek out GAI to get the answer.

Anyone here know?

Carlos

BBNUT

You are exactly right- vintage packs and boxes hardly trade in the marketplace. There is some collectors that are true collectors and go for a run of rack packs from 1960-1979 and vending boxes from 1959-1979. Some even leave the stickers from the packs when they were in the five and dime stores from the late sixites and early seventies. It would be a lot fun to know how much is being held onto. Just having nostalgia of going to the corner store to buy some penny packs of 1958 and 1959 Topps baseball. And for 1.20 a box who had that kind of money?In remembering i thought having a nickle back in that time was a lot for me let alone a buck twenty.

waitilltheytrytosell

Murphy has sold an enormous number of packs over the years. Some of the packs were purchased to open immediately, some were bought for collections or put away for investment. Now, when one of those no-name collectors goes to sell a couple of odds and ends in packs, like one 1968 5¢ pack, or one 86 Fleer pack, it can't be very easy for him. Everybody looks at the packs as suspect. What if, from the beginning, every pack Murphy sold was encapsulated? A no-name collector who bought packs then owns a product that is just as good as buying it from an expert. Pack collecting, and pack buying and selling, would be much safer and easier today. Safer and easier opens that area of collecting up to new people. The product is more liquid. The majority of the hobby have accepted Murphy's raw packs as fine for all these years. Why would the same packs in sealed holders now be any different? The only hiccup that I've seen in his illustrious run has been those holiday racks. What they are is anybody's guess. It will be interesting to see how they are going to be labeled in his grading and authentication process.

Mantlefan

I'm with the "suspicious" group on this one. If Mark sells it himself, why is there a need to authenticate it? I have purchased many packs from Mark over the years. I save the receipts and if I want to sell the packs, the receipts provide authenticity. Secondly, Mark has not elaborated on his grading standards. This pack is an "8" with a corner tear. Shouldn't that be a "5" or a "6"? Thirdly, the concept of someone else grading Mark's stuff for him [wink, wink] is a bit hard to swallow.

waitilltheytrytosell

Mantlefan - What's to stop you from switching or searching the packs? A receipt isn't tied to or connected to any specific pack. A person with a good receipt can hook it on to bad packs. It's not different from an autographed photo that comes with a rubber stamped generic C.O.A. When you go to sell your packs, the buyers will rely on your reputation and word that you didn't do anything to the packs that you claim were the same ones you bought from Murphy. If they were encapsualted, there never would be a question that they are the same packs.

riccaboni

I don't, there is something about it that I don't like. I'd really like to argue, but I have no argument. It just doesn't feel right to see packs in holders, yet. But hey, a lot of people felt that way about cards. I love the idea, I just don't think there should be grades. Just a guarentee of authenticity. That would be nice, but I really see no need for grading, I mean, I think people can determine wether a pack is suitable for their tastes.

Ian

Mantlefan

Charles....My high EBAY feedback rating has allowed me to sell many of my unopened packs at a nice profit. I provide a guaranteed refund, and I've never had a single pack returned. Paying GAI $50 to authenticate a $200 pack I bought from Mark doesn't make good business sense. Similarly, over-paying Mark for one of his self-graded packs is a losing proposition.

waitilltheytrytosell

I do agree that $50 makes it rather prohibitive for other dealers in packs to get into the slabbed pack game. This unfortunately will make him the only game in town for probably more than 95% of the packs that are typically traded. He could actually sell slabbed packs for less than $50, and make it impossible for a guy like you to compete. From your perspective though, wouldn't you rather sell a pack in a format similar to that of a graded card, in which you "never" have to worry about somebody screwing with it, or your reputation. It's worth something, but certainly not $50. At what price level would you consider crossing all your packs over into slabs and going graded?

rbeaton

So, is Mark going to charge more for a pack that was slabbed than one that was unslabbed?

Robert

qualitycards

Now, if boxes are pulled from a fresh case but the packs are damaged (maybe the case was dropped), would they be given 10's? That's the question to ask.
Carlos - The way I understand it, if you send Murphy/GAI an unopened case you may be able to receive a "10" grade. Only if the pack(s) warrant it. It is not automatic. If you send him/them a box or just loose packs the highest grade you can expect (if warranted) is a '9"...jay

carkim

So the grades have little to do with the condition of the pack?

If you have two Gem Mint packs (one from a box and one from a case) the grades would be 9 and 10?

To me, the grading has less to do with condition.

Carlos

waitilltheytrytosell

carkim - Say you had your choice between two 1989 Upper Deck packs.

Pack 1 - From a sealed case.

Pack 2 - From a box, which had packs opened until a Griffey was found, and then the remainder of the packs were "graded".

Which would you prefer to buy if opening the pack was your intention?

Which would you prefer to buy if you had no intention of opening the pack?

69topps8

I think it would make more sense to have a designator to indicate the pack came from a sealed case rather than reserve a grade for it. Carlos is correct when he says the grading system does not necessarily reflect the condition of the pack. For the example Carlos gave, if two packs are gem mint but only one came from a sealed case, they should both receive 10's based on their condition, but the pack from the sealed case should should be noted on the holder as such. In that way, the grade is the condition of the pack, yet the pack from the case still is identified and should sell for a premium over the "loose" pack.

waitilltheytrytosell

Along those lines then, the market for any pack regardless of condition is going to be very close to a 10 grade pack. I'd rather pay $10 for a VG pack with a tear in it, than $100 for a 10 grade pack. To a pack opener upper the VG pack would have the same value. It does open up a lot of questions and interesting scenarios.

waitilltheytrytosell

Grading packs is a one step more involved than cards. You also have to "grade" what could be contained inside. It's kind of like the "untouched 11" SCD grade. Normal cards can only get a 10. Normal packs can only get a 9. If you have an untouched card, or an untouched pack, then you can achieve the highest prossible rating. For a pack, this doesn't mean untouched, it just means that there was no possibilty of the pack ever being searched, or even searched through the process of elimination. I don't see any problem in incorporating this "last measurement" into the grading process. They tell you up front that these are the rules that apply to all packs.

69topps8

Still doesn't make sense to me. They have no clue what the condition of the cards inside is for even a case fresh card. I've seen cards with miscuts, factory induced creases, print defects and border splits caused by the sorting/packing machines. I don't think you can grade a pack based on the theoretical condition of the cards inside.

Scoop

I am in my 50's and bought wax packs regularly from 1956 thru 1967. I was into set collecting, not flipping. The words I used the most as a boy were, "Got 'em, got'em, need'em."

When I came within 75% of completing the series, I would stop buying packs so as not to have too many duplicate commons that no one would want to trade...remember, to a 9-year old kid, a nickel was a fortune then.

All my relatives knew that I collected baseball cards, so for birthdays, graduations, and such, I would get packs of cards. Many times I had already completed the series. So, unless it was a series with Mantle in it (I grew up in northern NJ and could get 100 cards for him) I figured it made more sense to trade the unopened packs for cards I needed.

Needless to say, I ended up with 50+ packs that survived (only because they were out of sight, out of mind until recently).

Unfortunately, without proof (no one but grocery store owners had the Topps cardboard boxes) these packs will ultimately be more valuable to me than anyone else, simply because I know for a fact, that no one has owned these packs but me.

With the changing of hands, authenticity does become a problem. Not being a dealer, no less a well-respected one, if I or my heirs ever intend to sell, I would assume that the best way to maximize their value would be to have a certified grading company authenticate them. But they will never be "original owner" to anyone else.

69topps8

Scoop - Do you have any pre 1960 nickle packs?

waitilltheytrytosell

69topps - It has nothing to do with the potential condition of what could be in the pack, it's more like rating your chances of pulling the most valuable card from that pack. They do say that most packs will never exist in the very top grade because it's unlikely that there will ever be such a find. So people know going in that a 9 for most vintage packs is the best you will ever see. For the newer common $100 to $300 or so treasure packs, there should be a "bonus" for a pack that contains all the possibilities.

carkim

it's more like rating your chances of pulling the most valuable card from that pack.

IMHO that is a silly way to grade wax packs.

Qualifier yes...Grade no.

Carlos


EDIT...Exchanged the word stupid with silly...Didn't want to be to harsh.

BBNUT

Scoop, that is exactly what I was saying. People hang on to things but dont publicize them because it is theirs and they are the intial owner of the stuff. They dont have to prove its genuine origin to any one The first thing they don't want is greedy people knowing about it and then wanting to get their hands on it just because they dont own what you have. Great job of hanging on to that stuff for all these years.

69topps8

Just want to clarify that my post to Scoop wasn't an attempt to pry them from his hands. If that were the case, I would have asked what packs he had instead of qualifying it with pre-1960 or I would have just asked him to PM me. I'm just curious what '50's nickel packs still exist since many (particularly in the mid-50's very rarely show up in auction, if ever).

Scoop, if you don't wan't to post what you have, that's understandable.

GangstaJayson

How bout this carlos forget it, Horrible idea let's spend are money on raw cards... Have those graded!!! Grading packs makes no sense to me...So you are gonna pay 50 dollars to get it graded with no guarentees on someone buying it from you....i would rather spend 6 dollars on grading commons...Now pick me up let's go to the erie show