General Observation and Thoughts on Toning and Certain Posts about It

TomB

One of the few areas of numismatics where I believe I have some measure of experience or expertise is in the niche of toned coins. Therefore, I occasionally cringe when I read posts from members that claim certain coins are AT simply by one image. I'm not talking about posts mentioning raw coins being sold on ebay where each coin looks exactly the same and all of them have a fluorescent blue circle on each side; I'm talking about those posts written about coins being offered either in respected third party slabs or by respected numismatists. Granted, an AT coin may fool the third party certification services and may also fool respected numismatists who have varying degrees of knowledge in the field of casual toning vs intentional toning, however, who would one think has inspected the coin in question closer? The third party certification service that has several graders look at the coin, the experienced and knowledgable numismatist who is putting his/her reputation behind the sale of a toned coin or a reader of these Boards viewing one image of the coin? Again, that's not to say that mistakes do not occur or that those who see one image of a coin can't be entirely correct about any aspect of a coin. What I am writing is that I believe quite a few members make certain declarations either without giving reasons or with giving incomplete reasons. The declaration without giving a reason would be writing something like "That coin is only worth 2x bid, not 10x" or some such statement. If this is an opinion then that is fine and absolutely correct for that individual in that instance but in most cases the writer seems to be stating that there is some fundamental principle behind the numbers. In truth, a coin, like anything else, is worth what someone will pay for it. Ideally, it is worth what a knowledgable seller and knowledgable buyer will agree it is worth. Whether that is 1/2x bid, bid, 2x bid, 10x bid or whatever is immaterial to another coin as long as the coins differ in some key aspect. In this instance the key aspect would be personal eye appeal. That personal valuation of a coin's eye appeal aside, there is another family of posts that state a coin is AT because "I saw it in the video". Folks, I have to tell you, I've seen the video too and although it's a great piece of educational material it certainly is not the final word on each and every coin. Determining the provenance of toning is much like determining the overall grade of a coin; many factors go into each decision and breaking them down one-by-one does not always give the same answer as when they are viewed as a sum. That video gives some hallmarks of AT and some hallmarks of genuine toning but it hardly tells the entire story. Depending on the denomination, the era produced, the probable storage method and collecting habits of the day there will be different types of toning expected for different coins. Learning these things will help to form one's opinion of how toning came to be on a particular coin. It's just like anything else in that continued education and experiece make one better at any task. The first time I saw a film on driving and then got behind the wheel I wasn't nearly the proficient driver that I am now. The same can be said for toning. One must make the effort to see as many coins as possible, to know how they were stored, to know where they were stored, to see them in old-time collections, to see them in slabs, to see them raw and to see coins where the toning is known to be AT by various methods. Even after this there is no certainty, for many people, as to the origin of toning. You know what? That's okay. If you are educated about something and can't give a definitive answer that's okay. As long as there is logic and evidence to support a theory then, really, who can complain about the opinion rendered? I guess this thread is meant to tell people that although the Campbell video is very good, each of us should have much more experience aside from the video alone to be able to make quite a few of the calls on the veracity of toning that I have read in some of these posts. Let me close by stating that I don't care anything about whom of us likes toning and whom of us doesn't. I'm not trying to persuade any of us to view toning with admiration nor with contempt. I'd just like to see a little more thought put into some posts concerning condemning a coin for AT or for how much it realized at auction.

supercoin

Your carriage-return key has broken again!

By the way, the colors in your icon look mighty suspicious to me, hmm...

WWBillman

Man you really need to start breaking posts that long up into paragraphs, this late at night it all just starts to blurr after awhile

Really, I could not agree more.

Man do I hate toning

TomB

Sorry about the eye appeal of my post. I'd like to take credit for that pun, however, someone in a previous post about one of my threads used that line and I thought it was great.

supercoin

Tom's post, legible version. And a fine post at that, now that I can read it!


" One of the few areas of numismatics where I believe I have some measure of experience or expertise is in the niche of toned coins. Therefore, I occasionally cringe when I read posts from members that claim certain coins are AT simply by one image.

I'm not talking about posts mentioning raw coins being sold on ebay where each coin looks exactly the same and all of them have a fluorescent blue circle on each side; I'm talking about those posts written about coins being offered either in respected third party slabs or by respected numismatists.

Granted, an AT coin may fool the third party certification services and may also fool respected numismatists who have varying degrees of knowledge in the field of casual toning vs intentional toning, however, who would one think has inspected the coin in question closer? The third party certification service that has several graders look at the coin, the experienced and knowledgable numismatist who is putting his/her reputation behind the sale of a toned coin or a reader of these Boards viewing one image of the coin?

Again, that's not to say that mistakes do not occur or that those who see one image of a coin can't be entirely correct about any aspect of a coin. What I am writing is that I believe quite a few members make certain declarations either without giving reasons or with giving incomplete reasons.

The declaration without giving a reason would be writing something like "That coin is only worth 2x bid, not 10x" or some such statement. If this is an opinion then that is fine and absolutely correct for that individual in that instance but in most cases the writer seems to be stating that there is some fundamental principle behind the numbers.

In truth, a coin, like anything else, is worth what someone will pay for it. Ideally, it is worth what a knowledgable seller and knowledgable buyer will agree it is worth. Whether that is 1/2x bid, bid, 2x bid, 10x bid or whatever is immaterial to another coin as long as the coins differ in some key aspect. In this instance the key aspect would be personal eye appeal.

That personal valuation of a coin's eye appeal aside, there is another family of posts that state a coin is AT because "I saw it in the video".

Folks, I have to tell you, I've seen the video too and although it's a great piece of educational material it certainly is not the final word on each and every coin. Determining the provenance of toning is much like determining the overall grade of a coin; many factors go into each decision and breaking them down one-by-one does not always give the same answer as when they are viewed as a sum.

That video gives some hallmarks of AT and some hallmarks of genuine toning but it hardly tells the entire story. Depending on the denomination, the era produced, the probable storage method and collecting habits of the day there will be different types of toning expected for different coins. Learning these things will help to form one's opinion of how toning came to be on a particular coin. It's just like anything else in that continued education and experiece make one better at any task.

The first time I saw a film on driving and then got behind the wheel I wasn't nearly the proficient driver that I am now. The same can be said for toning. One must make the effort to see as many coins as possible, to know how they were stored, to know where they were stored, to see them in old-time collections, to see them in slabs, to see them raw and to see coins where the toning is known to be AT by various methods.

Even after this there is no certainty, for many people, as to the origin of toning. You know what? That's okay. If you are educated about something and can't give a definitive answer that's okay. As long as there is logic and evidence to support a theory then, really, who can complain about the opinion rendered?

I guess this thread is meant to tell people that although the Campbell video is very good, each of us should have much more experience aside from the video alone to be able to make quite a few of the calls on the veracity of toning that I have read in some of these posts.

Let me close by stating that I don't care anything about whom of us likes toning and whom of us doesn't. I'm not trying to persuade any of us to view toning with admiration nor with contempt. I'd just like to see a little more thought put into some posts concerning condemning a coin for AT or for how much it realized at auction.

In conclusion, buy toned Ikes for outrageous sums from supercoin, you can't go wrong. "

TomB

Hmmmmm.....Interesting last sentence you have there, eh?

WWBillman

supercoin,

ROTFLMMFAO

jom

<< <i>In conclusion, buy toned Ikes for outrageous sums from supercoin, you can't go wrong. >>



You really didn't think you could get away with that one did you, Superman? BTW, who taught you how to break up paragraphs like that? Must have been the same English teacher I had.

Just to add a tidbit to what TomB said. The Campbell video was primarily about MORGAN DOLLARS. That means you can't necessarily apply what the video teaches to other silver coin series LET ALONE a coin with a different metal (nickel, copper, gold, etc).

As with all things in the coin "market" you must apply knowledge from each series specifically and be wary of anyone that tells you that what applies to one coins series also always applies to another. That is simply not true.

jom

IrishMike

Tom, thank you thank you thank you! I am glad you stepped up to the plate to write that post. My tongue was getting sore from biting it as a result of the comments you were referring that have been made about toning. You said it in a much more palatable way then I would have been capable of. I once had a college English professor write on one of my all night papers, If this is any indication of your writing capabilities I suggest you change majors, and you know something, he was right. Some times we need a gentle or not so gentle written slap on the brain.

IrishMike

Oh and supercoin, I can't believe you did that, well on second thought I can.

gsaguy

TomB,

I was going to add to your post but then realized that there was nothing I could add. You said it all. Thanks!

However, I still don't understand that plug for Supercoin

GSAGUY

braddick

Great post.
I would also extend that viewpoint to those coins also GRADED and then scanned for us to evaluate. It's fun but hardly educational.
No one can grade a coin based on a scan.

1jester

I'm surprised that last sentence didn't read "Got JFKs?"

matteproof

Great thoughts on the toning debate Tom. Thank you!

matteproof

Dog97

Another General Observation: Last 2 years toned coins were a novelty on this forum and the collectors of such were ridiculed for the outrageous prices they paid against the very few other toned collectors. There's was no way that monster could be real and the buyer was a fool because it could be a worthless AT which is damaged goods.

But everybody was taking secret notes and acting like they weren't but being unwilling to pay the prem for the monsters came to the general consensus that even if it's AT but as long as it's pretty & "If someone want to buy the damn thing that's up to them. Who cares?" Or if you don't collect toned then you are not a real collector and are thought of as a newbie that likes bright shiny objects much like a crow does.

I really don't care what other folks collect but I hate to see collectors get burned because they want to do the "in" thing and collect what's popular at the moment. These collecting trends come & go and like in any other market the latecomers who bought high will sell low but the early trend setters who were ridiculed will be the ones to get the last laugh because they still sitting on the good stuff!!

andy007

I'll follow up Dog's comments on the trends on the forums from what I have witnessed on here as of late also. There seem to be a large number of new collectors on here(not in terms of time posting here, but collecting experience) that seem to throw out all these posts upon posts as TomB stated who can miraculously grade and tell AT coins from watching a video and looking at a digital image of a coin. The true wealth of information that has been discussed and posted lately is greatly declining IMO, partly due to the mass numbers of these types of posts. Because you have a little change in your pocket and can buy yourself a registry set from decent-for-the-grade Ebay coins or can photograph coins does not qualify as an expert in that series. Some of the recent threads are from new collectors who are asking these Ebay registry set collectors their opinions as if they are experts should really take their time and evaluate who they are entrusting their advice and often money too. Just my opinion.

gemtone65

Enough already about toned pieces, especially originally toned dollars, and their future prospects. I'm convinced all the hype is designed to provide a way for those who got buried in gem toned dollars over the past few years to sell and get out alive.

When such pieces were being offered about 5 years ago for $300-500, I knew they were overpriced and began acquiring nice shiney white ones, common dates, for around $150 apiece. Then, when the gem toned pieces went to $1000, I really started to stock up on the white ones, at the bargain price of $125.

When I heard that some above average gem toned dollars were selling for $1000-1500 last year, I didn't believe they were legitimate sales. So, I accelerated my acquisition of the bright white pieces at $100 a pop.

Now, I ve been hearing reports that some gem toned dollars are being bid fiercely, by both collectors and dealers, at $2500-3000. I don't believe any of this, but even if there is a grain of truth to it, the market will soon collapse like the tech bubble of the 1990's or the tulip craze in Europe several years ago. (Oh, you say it was several centuries ago? Who's counting?) In any event, I've decided to average down and buy my all the white pieces I can at $80. After all, these trends can't go on indefinitely -- can they?

Toningintheblood

gemtone65, I agree with you 100%. You should stay away from all toned coins! If you like the less expensive ice white examples, be a marketmaker in them. Keep buying them to your heart's content! As a coin collector we realize there are two sides to each coin, a head's and tail's, both factions toning vs. white, can still enjoy and love this hobby for what it is, and what we enjoy! So be it!

jom

<< <i>"If someone want to buy the damn thing that's up to them. Who cares?" >>



I made that above statement and I stand by it. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing on this board how people whine about what someone ELSE is buying. Anyone has the right to pay whatever they want for whatever coin. Do I like it if someone gets burned? No, of course not. We are all hear to lend any help we can with our own experiences so if a collector doesn't do his/her own "due dilegence" before buying what can you do? Fact of the matter is this AT issue (and the "grading" issue also) are blown WAY out of proportion from what is really important about coin collecting, IMO.

jom

FC57Coins

Jom:

I don't know about you, but I kinda like hearing what people have to say on different subjects because that's how one learns about these topics. Granted sometimes we get over zealous with our indignation over certain transactions, but I think that for every time someone sticks his foot in his mouth - yours truly being one of them Im sure, we also learn something too.

In my humble opinion.

Frank

jom

Of course we want opinions but my statement was taking a bit out of context too (by me actually, lol). I'm just saying I agree with TomB: A coin is worth what someone is willing to pay. But if someone says "that's too much...that is ridiculous" what they really should say is "I, personally, am not willing to pay that" but that doesn't mean it isn't worth it because someone out there WAS willing to pay it.

jom

FC57Coins

I think we're all in agreement then

Frank

Morganluver

Hi all. I wanted to respond to Toms post last night but it was late and I type so slow that it would have been sunup before I finished.

I have read most of the pro/con threads on toning and i'd like to say a few words if I may, although Tom expressed many of my sentiments very eloquently.

I hope I'm doing my paragraphs properly also.

I feel that the desicions in our lives are made by choice especially when it comes likes and dislikes, and when it comes to the subject of toning, some poeple are very vocal and adamant with their particular views. Also, I think our decisions/choices are most effectively made based on knowledge. The more knowledge we have the better our choices turn out. So how does one go about aquiring the knowledge to make informed choices? In this case, I,m talking about the task of discerning NT from AT.

While a well produced viedo on toning may impart a wealth of "knowledge", it takes much more time and experience to gain greater understanding of all the nuances involving the dynamics of this field. The best method I've found in trying to understanding the subtlies of the subject(which happens to require time, experience, and patience), is to search out and examine in person every toned coin that you possibly can. Over the past decade or so I've looked at literally thousands of toned coins(raw and slabbed) to not only try to decide what I like and what I don't like, but to also try to figure out what is "real" or not. While I've gained much greater knowledge and understanding of the subject with this method, I have still been fooled on occasion(or so the services say). Tom is right when he says that the people best able to "decide" yea or nay to AT are the ones who have the most experience. Those would be primarily the major third party graders and those who have spent extensive time personally examining toned coins.

Another method that works(although at greater cost) is going to the school of "hard knocks". While this way of gaining knowledge may be somewhat faster, it also risks greater monetary losses. This method usually involves the purchase of raw or lesser respected third party graded toned coins in the hope that they can be successfully submitted or resubmitted to a more respected(knowledgable?) third party service. This method is hit and miss at best and does not replace the "time and experience" approach IMO.

Someone once said that "knowledge is king". I believe that and I also think that the most knowledge is obtained with the mouth closed and the eyes and ears open. I'm not saying to refrain from questioning when your questions are well thought out, but to try to see and listen before espousing an opinion. We all know what they say about opinions.

I've always believed in the "live and let live" philosophy as long as poeples actions or words don't hurt anyone physically or mentally. It's the " different strokes for different folks" thing. While I, for one love a beautifully and uniquely toned(eye of the beholder) coin of any denomination, I also realize that many others(maybe most) like a beautiful white pristine coin.

The bottom line seems to be that everyone has likes and dislikes and most are willing to express their opinions reguarding such. But hopefully, when expressing these opinions, they will be well thought out and informed and not harmful in any way-the "live and let live" attitude. Above all, truth and honesty, with a healthy dose of compassion.

Thanks for listening.



Sincerely, Richard Courson

jom

<< <i>Those would be primarily the major third party graders and those who have spent extensive time personally examining toned coins. >>



Great post! I somewhat disagree with the above statement though. I think there are many collectors and dealers than have just as much if not more experience in grading and determining AT from NT than 3rd party graders do. Given the amount of "turnover" at the services this makes sense to me. I'm just trying to say relying completely in the services is a mistake. Each person should learn this stuff themselves by looking at many coins as you have!

jom

1jester

Many great posts. I love nicely toned coins (and white ones too), but I would hope that all the toned coins I will buy are naturally toned. I wouldn't personally want to buy an AT coin, because that's a bit like other "unnatural" things like boob jobs and other plastic surgery, and replica cars, etc. I simply prefer what's natural (if even that can be defined....). My intuition (which is not borne out by reality, or today's marketplace) is that NT coins should sell at a premium to AT coins since NT coins are rarer, and AT can be produced today and at any given moment. It has to do with rarity. Once again, this doesn't necessarily relate to the market price today, or ever. And everybody has a right to pay whatever price they want to for anything they want. That's freedom, and I support it.

Even I might decide to buy an AT coin, if it appealed to me, but that's not what I'm addressing here. My main problem with AT would be if I didn't know it was AT (and that fact was either not disclosed to me, or misrepresented). I think AT presents a problem/challenge to coin collecting in this respect.

Nic

Great post TomB. Buy what you want and understand. K