Incredible price for a toned common date Morgan
Cocoinut
Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭✭✭
I know attractively toned coins can bring substantial premiums, but this seems excessive to me. Apparently I'm mistaken, because there were still a half dozen bidders at $1000 or more. I watched this one out of curiousity; it was at $1875 until the last 20 seconds. Is this typical for toned dollars?
1885-P MS65 dollar
Jim
1885-P MS65 dollar
Jim
Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 1 coin. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
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Comments
The Buyer of the dollar is known for his eye for Great Toned Coins so apparently this one is worth that amount in his opinion. To Me its just a Toned Dollar. Boy I hope I did not say something wrong with that statement.
Ken
I like pretty toning, but this isn't pretty and looks AT to me. And at 20 times the value I can't see it.
Jon
It went for nearly 34 times the Greysheet bid of $76. I didn't think it was a spectacular looking coin worth that kind of money. It's no wonder people try to create that kind of toning through artificial means. It could be a very lucrative business if PCGS and collectors couldn't tell the difference.
Jim
Russ, NCNE
If the market for these ever turns south (not that it would), some of those toned coins are just going to be white elephants.
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etexmike
I'm wondering because on this piece, to me it detracts from the eye appeal a bit. Not that I couldn't live with it either way if someone wants to give it to me.
I like yours better, but, no textile toning, sorry!
In order to achieve this a coin would have to lay motionless in a bag for a period of 60 to 80 years. Any shifting of the coin in the bag and the effect of the textile pattern will become blurred and the effect will be lost. When you think of what most bags of Morgan dollars went through, being transported all over the country and being moved and thrown around in Bank Vaults it is amazing that any could sit undisturbed long enough to develop a textile.
In the early 80's I was fortunate enough to be present when several original bags of Morgans were opened. Out of the thousands of coins that were contained in these bags only 2 to 3 hundred were toned, and not a one carried a textile pattern. Next time any one is at a coin show that has a number of toned Morgans for sale, look for ones that have a vivid tone and a fairly large and pronounced Textile, You will be surprised at how few if any you will see.
I guess Morgan guys are so spoiled with dime-a-dozen toned Morgans they've got to stretch to find something different.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Jim
that would be me!!!!!!!only it was in an icg 66 holder.........i sent it in to cross for a 100 show fee.....and nada......i cracked it and sent it in 5 minutes after i got it back from pcgs and 2 hours later.....boom in a pcgs 66 holder..........whats up with that......200 instead of 100........they must need our money over at pcgs
WOW WHAT A COOL COIN HE SOLD ME!!!!!
GREGG
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>Why do some tone and others don't. >>
This is a question that has been bouncing around for years. My opinion is what TomB mentioned in his post that the chemicals in portions of the bag are different.
The reason is that you can open a bag of Morgans there will be 6 or 7 with colorful tone and the remainder of the coins in the bag will be white even though there are others in direct contact with the toning source (Bag)
Another example would be that you have a group of bags sitting in the same place within the same environment. You open a bag and it has tone coins present, you open another bag and the coins are all white.
<< <i>Could you provide a pic of this effect for our comparison? >>
I have a few samples of Textile Tone on my Web Page. You can click on the link in my signature.
I guess we are the only two left in this discussion! The oxygen part makes sense on a bag that all the coins are white, but when you have a bag that may only contain 5 or 6 toned coins it is hard to imagine that the ingredients oxygen flow, Sulfur wouldn't interact with more coins in that particular bag.
How about this. In the case of the bag that only contained 5 or 6 toned coins, maybe that bag was moved say once or twice a year when the bank or mint was taking inventory and only those 5 or 6 coins remained in their relative positions. If this was the case, I would assume that these few coins would be somewhere toward the bottom of the bag where they couldn't move as freely as the other coins higher up in the bag. Do you remember where those toned ones were located in the bag you mentioned so I could verify or disprove my theory?
Thanks, Richard
I didn't get to open any of the bags. I was with a dealer who had made a deal with the guy who owned the bags that he could have first shot on any that were toned. As far as the position of where any were located in the bag I really don't know.
i did 2 dollar bag deals..........the first was with kd of usc.....it was a 30 bag deal......30,000 coins takes some kinds time to go thru....3 gays to be exact.........the neat hing about it was mark salzberg was in town to talk to kd about his new photo proof idea....i got to listen to all the layout and was trusted to shut up about it......tipping off the competion would of allowed them to take away the lead in the idea ...anyway kd wanted to have them graded and he planned a trip to go to a casino....i sat in the back seat for the 2 hour trip in the surban......kd was negociating the per coin cost.......well ...we all had a good time the next day kd struck a deal for a $3 per coin off the previous price and maybe .....just maybe.....i might of had something to do with it......for my help ( which was a lot of fun)...kd gave me first shot and all the colored coins.........AT ASK....well thats the way it was back then....i did have a field day to say the least....it was great...kd saved 90,000 and i got the mooses
the other bag deal was in baltimore.........sd asked me what are you doing after the show......i said whats up...he said he had an old accountant friend who had 50 bags ......every 5 years or so he would sell 5 to 7 bags....so off we went to philly...went to the bank.....geez it was hot sorting in the cramped banks vault...he wanted to sell 5 bags..........he had several huge safety depo boxes and we pulled 5.......sorted them all ......we were getting about five 67s a bag........forty 66s.........a hundred 65s.........and the rest 63s and 64s.............not one color coin.....BOOOOO........well that night we had diner and chatted....oh well...........the next day he drove me back to baltimore and i jumped on my plane....2 days later he sd calls me and saud the accountant wanted to do another bag ( he liked looking for the monsters too)............and bingo...they struck it rich..........color out the kasuba.........well after they were graded sd gave me first shot...he sent me 2 double row boxes ( about 140 coins).............i could pick anyone i wanted.......however the price was double ask......i said mmmmmmmm my price just doubled in 2 years.....not on the sheets but the % over the sheets.......i passed
AND I REGRET TO SAY THAT WAS THE DUMBEST THING I EVER DID!!!!
TTYL
GREGG
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
There are still a lot of dealers around that were involved in the opening of original bags, but most probably didn't pay any attention to how coins were positioned in the bag, especially during the time frame that I got to see this (The White Craze) Now it may be another story with Miller, he might have paid attention because of his involvement with his research on the Morgan series and Toning.
Gregg:
I know what you mean about passing! In 1985 when this all was taking place my pockets were not any where near deep enough to pay the outrageous price of $300.00 for a Monster high grade toned Morgan
The dealer who I was with a guy you know "JG" told me that I had first shot at the toned dollars he bought that came out of these bags, over a hundred coins. I figured if he would let me pay for them over a set time frame I could afford three. He agreed to this and I picked out the three that to my eye was the nicest color wise of the group. If I just had it to do over I would have went into hock to buy more of these coins. (Although My Wife Would Have Probably Killed Me).
By the way I still own these three Dollars.
>>>>>>>>By the way I still own these three Dollars>>>>>>>>>
i figured you would!!!!
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Yeah, I guess I'm one of those guys that Anaconda talks about in some of his auctions. The kind of guy that gets a toned coin, and hangs on to it so tight that his knuckles turn white.
Half of the posters in this thread have gorgeous toned coins as their icons.....the other half stone white coins. I guess I am seeing double here........but then it does match my icon as well.
there a a few explanations for this
1) the bags you find now ( aka hoards ) were compiled from various sources....although they have been with the same owner for 25 years ....some came from here and others from there thus you have different origins form the last 100 years ..although some might think " well they all came from the same place"...which is not so
2) while in stock in government vaults they were stored in variuos means.......some were piled on pallets and stacked....some were stacked on the floor...........since the bottom bags were in contact with the wooden pallets they were in direct contact with a sulfur source ( A GREAT TONING CATALIST)
3) some fed vaults were audited more often then others and for different reasons....so one can deduce that in the counting process a lot of bags were removed from the " toning source " during the count where the bottom bags were moved to another stack and the used to be bottom bags were now the top ones
4) also different vaults have different ventilation systems
5) also different vaults were in different humidity geographic areas
6) i also can deduce ( but cant guarantee it ) that all the bags were from the same source and of the same consistencey ( MAYBE) .....back then i dont believe there was a lot of people ( companies ) doing a lot of improvemennts or changes with textiles ....( there were not many changes back then and if it wasnt broike they wouldnt fix it )..i would imagine that the same company that made the covers for the wagons was the same company that made the bags...and at the vary least they all used the same manufacturing process as we werent to inventive then for obvious reasons...this one is just my thoughts alone....so i really dont think the bags had much to do with it.....it was the atmosphere around the bags...thus textile toning...........i have noticed the thread used on the bags to sew it together to change from time to time.... and i have seen it do different things to toning....like a total block out of monster toning where the thread was......one coin i owned was a monster with a big white scratch looking mark across the face.......first glance and youd say oh what a shame.......but it was a "block out" from the thread..............and in that particular instance it hurt the coin`s eye appeal....i can imagine that in some instances it would really help a coin
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Richard
<< <i>but it was a "block out" from the thread. >>
I have a 80's that took on this effect, but luckily the mark from the thread took on a golden/Orange color.
I also think that humidty plays one of the largest factors in how coins will or will not tone in an original bag. I say this because of the instance of the Continental Bank Hoard of dollars and how and where they were stored for so long, and because of the many hundreds of amazingly toned pieces that came out of those bags. I believe that in the drier and warmer climates (such as the southwest) where many original bags were stored, the toning tends to be rather bland and dark in many cases, whereas bags found in more humid climates (with large seasonal temperature changes) tend to produce some of the more vividly toned pieces and with a wider range of colors. These however are generalizations and not written in stone.
Dragon
I also think all the different chemicals that were applied to the coins in the minting process has some thing to do with it. They were covered with grease, dipped in lye, washed in acid, tumbled in sawdust. Residue from any of these steps possibly results in monster colors along with the chemicals being of varying concentrations in different parts of the bag.