Interesting high grade FE (error?) *Follow-up*

shylock

A seller on Ebay who's offered some interesting coins recently now has an 1857 Flying Eagle (PCGS MS65) that's both beautiful and interesting. It has very strong doubling on the right and lower eagle wings/breast and even more obvious doubling on the date: link.

There are no varieties listed with these attributes, and my first thought was a 5% double strike at 4 o'clock. The best thing about this forum is the real time opinions you get, and after linking this to IrishMike he pointed out the double set of denticles at the upper left(!) A classic example of centering on the focal points and missing the obvious. This seems to make a stronger case for a double strike -- what do you think?

The Ebay auction. In a new PCGS holder and no doubt cracked for a 66 which it has claims to.

Edit: I posted a follow-up, with additional images, after the coin arrived.

IrishMike

Thanks to Paul, I spent 3 hours reading and rereading all of my books, material, etc., to no avail, couldn't find a thing on it. This coin has every thing going for it, color, magnificent strike, age and character, ie. the doubling. I hadn't sat down in a long time and did some serious reading/research and I had a blast, alas I am no detective, and no Watson either.

kranky

The double strike theory is interesting, but I'm bothered by the appearance of the date. The secondary image seems to be larger than the main one, which got me thinking about Longacre doubling rather than being double struck. But Longacre doubling wouldn't explain the denticles AFAIK.

pmh1nic

Shylock

Love the coin, love the character and I'd love to have the extra $3,000+ in my budget to tender a bid . I can't offer any insight as far as the doubling.

What do you think the coin will go for?

IrishMike

kranky, I fired off an email to someone who has written a book of IHC's and FE's, hopefully he will shed some advice on this coin. I am not quite sure what to make of it, other than I would like to own it. But the stock market has eliminated that possibility for the time being.

kranky

It is a beauty! I hope you get a response, I'm interested to hear what the explanation is.

toothpuller

Looks like strike doubling. There is not a die variety even close in Rick Snow's attribution guide. Another great thread Paul.

Just for kicks I will include the description from Vol 1 , 2nd edition

Strike doubling is a phenomenon which is caused when one of the dies is not firmly fixed in the press. The slight movement of the die during the strike causes metal on the coin to shift slightly. Strike doubling can be difficult to distinguish from actual repunching and doubled dies in some cases. Knowledge of the actual varieties helps. Strike doubling is typically flat and shelflike and is connected to the design element. By contrast doubled dies and repunched dates will show element separation.

shylock

Kranky -- I have a tough time getting a handle on doubling in it's many forms but I believe Longacre (or shoulder) doubling appears mainly on lettering and usually on both sides, in a shelf-like manner like this one. My theory on this coin is rather than the typical chatter doubling, this coin received a weak strike, shifted in a N by NW direction in the collar, then was struck very well a second time -- intentionally or not. I can't see chatter doubling creating two clearly defined sets of denticles like that. But I'm interested what some of the error experts have to say, as well as the email answer to IrishMike.

Pmh -- I'm thinking 5K+. The strike is 66 quality -- besides the solid eagle, the leaves on the reverse wreath have full veins usually only seen on higher grades. Images being what they are, this has the look of a 66 coin with some character to boot.

The closest example I can find is this IH that received a double strike label. It shifted in a N by NE direction before the second hit:

Pushkin

It wouldn't surprise me to see some big money come in on this coin - I'll hazard a guess of $8K-10K.

Really interested in seeing the determination on the doubling.

Bustman

<< <i>It wouldn't surprise me to see some big money come in on this coin - I'll hazard a guess of $8K-10K.

Really interested in seeing the determination on the doubling. >>



How are you coming up with a figure of $8-10K? Has anyone found anything about this coin ( strike) in their research?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Paul - I own an 1857 flying eagle cent (double die obverse)certified on the holder with its own pcgs #. It took me almost a year to get certified.

I suggest the gentleman send the coin back in for designation review. If someone buys the coin, then they should send it in for designation review.We all know it is worth multiples of the present price in a double die holder

The key to a true 1857 double die is if the eagles eye is doubled

Stewart

Dog97

Most of the DD shows the effect in the motto US of A. It is neither strike (machine) nor Longacre doubling. The funky date Kranky mentioned is a RPD. I would be inclined to call it a double struck error. It's most interesting!

shylock

I don't think Bustman would mind if Pushkin's estimate is correct, since it's his coin. I've enjoyed your recent auctions -- did Legend or Anaconda wind up buying that 55 Large cent?

Stewart -- I agree the lack of doubling on the eye makes the DDO designation unlikely. Will PCGS denote a double strike error on a coin with less than a 5% shift on the restrike?

Dog97

If it's double struck then it's double struck no matter what the shift. The goons at PCGS don't attribute the errors anyway, that job is subcontracted out to an expert, Fred Weinberg, all PCGS does is assign the numerical grade. I have seen slabbed errors struck between 10 - 30 times with so little shift you couldn't tell unless you looked very close.

Bustman

<< <i>I don't think Bustman would mind if Pushkin's estimate is correct, since it's his coin. I've enjoyed your recent auctions -- did Legend or Anaconda wind up buying that 55 Large cent?

Stewart -- I agree the lack of doubling on the eye makes the DDO designation unlikely. Will PCGS denote a double strike error on a coin with less than a 5% shift on the restrike? >>



You are right, I would not mind if Pushkin's estimate is correct! I still would like to know how he came up with that number?
As far as the large cent goes, it is out on spec. My guess is that it will be sold. I am glad you have enjoyed the coins I have listed on Ebay Shylock. Since they are coins from my personal collection, it is nice to hear from others, that I have made ome good choices over the years.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Bustman- Hi there! As inquisitive minds would like to know,would you be willing to post your reserve?

To my knowledge,there are no other DDO flying eagles

The only DDO Indian Cent is the 1873 Closed 3 double liberty.The value of an ms64 r/b,an ms65 r/b or a 64 red is anywhere between 20 to 40 times the value of a non double die
Therefore,if the value of an 1857 F.E. cent in ms 65 is approximately $3,000, the value of an 1857 F.E. cent DDO should be $60,000 - $100,000 ?

The image of the coin is very nice Bustman

Paul- Iam not aware of,or familiar with the error program at PCGS.I do not collect errors.I do believe the coin is better off in a regular issue 1857 F.E. holder.

Stewart

Pushkin

First let me state that my estimation is pure speculation.

Based on the possibility that is is unique, and the coin's very strong eye appeal, plus the prices I've seen lately of some coins offered by Snow, wadbe, and others, it would seem to have the 'potential' to sell at a significant premium. Obviously, the nature of the doubling has to be verified. If a buyer were willing to take a chance on it being worth significantly more than $8-10K, I believe they would grab it and incur the risk. For me personally, the coin has the eye appeal and interest that make it worth taking a second look at - but these are just my subjective feelings - I'm not offering investment advice.

Dog97

As part time error collector I'll take issue with STEWARTBLAYNUMIS's "I do believe the coin is better off in a regular issue 1857 F.E. holder." As a rare error it deserves to be protected and properly attributed in a slab however if you can take care of your coins you can certianly leave it raw. Errors can be attributed without slabbing them, it's been done for years. I believe that it has more value as a nice 57 to that type of collector than it does as an error to an error collector. For that kind of $$ a coin needs to be a MAJOR striking error to have any interest to an error collector.

michael

one of the most deeply impressed flyers i have ever seen, it has great eye appeal, i cant tell from the scan if it is dark brown or a lighter color, it is hard to image 65 flyers to show colour and lustre

also hard to get them a light color like you sometimes see in 66 copper nickel indians

to me this coin is a high end 65 and that is based on the colour of the flyer in the scan this could be different if i saw the coin sight seen also

from the scan i also think this coin is not a 66 because of the color

but grading is an art and even the experts at pcgs often disagree a point either way that is why there is a finalizer,,,,,,,,,, with at least? three graders per coin?

for me this coin is double struck

i personally feel that with this anominaly and the great eye appeal and the great strike due to being double struck this coin is worth a premium over a similar graded pcgs 65 coin how much? i will let the final buyer deside as to its worth to him/her



but if pcgs agrees to put some kind of designation on the holder as per the doubling then its market value would increase

sincerely michael

shylock

I think Stewart's point about it being better off in a regular issue slab than designated an error is based solely on the values Dog mentions. The market for a high end 65 is at least as strong as that for a minor restrike, and the mystery of it's origin adds some spice that an error label would remove. But I understand your numismatic viewpoint Dog. Collectors are better off knowing exactly what it is, if that's possible here.

My estimate of 5K is based on a high end 65 price (4K) plus that spice. Aside from the light hit in the eagle's wing edge and a few very small toning spots on the reverse, there isn't much in this image to think an upgrade isn't possible at some point in time. Only that kind of speculation (risky based on an image & the new PCGS slab) or DDO potential would draw an 8K+ bid. But you never know when a unique coin will lure the right collector at the right time...

Bustman

The coin is not dark at all. It has very nice original warm tone to it, but it is not dark. I bought it for the unbelievable strike first, eye appeal second, and yes, thought the doubling made it somewhat unique. As for the reserve, you guys have me thinking that I should have made it higher............ but it is currently set at 3600.00.
Maybe I should send the link to Rick Snow first thing monday???

shylock

Actually, I already have! I didn't send the thread, but included the image & the Ebay listing.

By the way, the tone and clarity of the 1862 IH you have listed is eye grabbing. Typical feather tip weakness like most of the copper-nicks, otherwise MS67 material. Any other IHs up your sleeve?

toothpuller

Paul, why did you have to go and tell everyone about that 1862 CN? Now I'm going to have to raise my bid.

shylock

Toothpuller -- I wouldn't sweat it. We both know there are only a handful of IH collectors who read these posts and I think two of them are on vacation.

Rick's comment on this coin is "It looks like extreme strike doubling, nearly double strike".

Dahlonega

Guys I may be just a Dahlonega collector but someone who loves flying eagles should buy this coin for it is special. Heck if nobody wants it just tell me and I will bid on it. By memory it would be the first mint state copper [I know copper nickel] coin purchased by me in over 45 years of collecting. I like it.

Pushkin

Its a real beauty. The more I look at it the more I'm enchanted by it. I have a gut feeling its unique.

Just wish the doubling issue was completely resolved.

Bustman

Shylock,
Was Ricks reaction " Oh wow, extreme strike doubling...... never seen that type of doubling before"? Or was it more like......."yeah, I have seen that type of doubling before, its almost a double strike"? Inquiring minds want to know.

Pushkin

Bustman,

Would you mind turning your private mail on for a few minutes? I'd like to send you a PM.

shylock

Rick's a man of few words via email. He's a one man operation now so I've gotten use to short, to the point answers -- especially on Monday when his server is filled with more important business related emails. If you see him bid (EERC) he was feeling "oh wow" inside!

Dog97

<< <i>Rick's comment on this coin is "It looks like extreme strike doubling, nearly double strike >>


That doesn't make sense. It's either strike doubling or it's not. It's either double struck or it's not. If strike doubling is extreme enough it does not turn into a double struck coin. Big difference.
Is there any way we can get a rev pict of this thing?

IrishMike

Is there any way we can get a rev pict of this thing? >>



Thing?

Bustman

<< <i>Bustman,

Would you mind turning your private mail on for a few minutes? I'd like to send you a PM.:
Pushkin, PM is now on ....fire away!

shylock

The double set of denticles and eagle all say double struck towards 10:30. What I'd like someone to explain is why the 8 & 5 of the date didn't fully strike the second time, and why the original 7 is almost twice as wide as the second strike.

Dog97

The planchet was struck to the proper thickness by the first strike so there wasn't enough metal left to completely fill the die recesses on the second strike. On the 7, the small 7 was the first strike. The NW ½ of the 7 was ironed out by the second strike, (the field flattened it) and the larger SE 7, again because there wasn't enough metal left to completely fill the die recesses on the second strike.

shylock

Very sharp Dog, that's why you're the error expert here. Thanks. And the reason the 8 and 5 appear cut off at the bottoms is again because there wasn't enough metal left from the first date strike to fill them out completely.

Bustman

To be a true double strike, doesn't there have to be doubling on both sides of the coin? This flyer only has doubling on the obverse. From what I read it sounds more like hub doubling, except on hub doubling ( like the lincoln 1955 double), the doubling would all be raised, not flattened out as it is on strike doubling, and this coin. So.......... it can't be a double srtike because the doubling is only on the obverse, and it can't be hub doubling because one of the strikes is flat. WHAT IS THIS CREATURE??????????????

Byers

Now that the auction is over- my opinion is- machine doubling.

Mike Byers

byersnc.com

shylock

The bidding seemed to reflect that opinion as well as it went for a high end 65 price without the extra spice I expected. Which is fine with me since I wound up the winning bidder. My only previous purchase from Bustman happened to be another 57 -- I'll now have to decide which to keep.

Dog97

Hi Mike!
Congrats on your new coin Shylock. Mike's right, machine doubling. Ejection doubling according to one of my error dealer buddies. It's really cool looking and that was fun trying to figure out what it was.

moosesr

I enjoy looking at the high grade Flying eagles and Indian cents in Rick Snow's catalog and on eBay even though I can't afford to buy them. I thought this was a really neat looking coin. I was curious about whether or not the doubling makes it worth more, so I sent an Email to Rick Snow. I told him it had doubling on the wing, tail and maybe date and wondered what he thought about the coin. I was suprised when he said that Strike doubling actually lowers the value in MS65.

Nic

Congrat.'s shylock. Beautiful and interesting flyer. K

Dahlonega

Great coin! Congratulations I predict will end up in a 66 holder but its so nice I think you'll regret it if you ever sell this coin. Please give us a followup when you get the coin - is it as nice as I think?

kranky

Hey, shylock, congrats on that great coin! I got caught up on this thread today after not having much board time this week since I was out of town. So the consensus is double struck (as clearly evidenced by the denticles) and that also explains (as per Dog) why the date looks odd. Without the denticles to confirm it, I think it would be difficult to convince everyone of the double strike using the date alone. A very, very cool coin that certainly didn't give up its secret without a fight.

shylock

Thanks Kranky, and all those who helped chew the fat about this one.

The experts agree a form of machine doubling, but it certainly is an extreme example you'd be hard pressed to find on another FE in this condition. I'm not sure about the doubling lowering the price with this particular coin, but I understand that Rick Snow's typical clients are looking for either varieties or clean strikes, and nothing in between. For that reason this coin wouldn't meet his needs. Personally, I like the combination of its high grade beauty and mechanical quirks. Will follow up when it arrives in a few days.

shylock

The coin arrived today thanks to Express mail by both parties, and I'm an extremely happy customer. The only surprises: the tone and lustre are much brighter than the Ebay image, and there's a very small toning dot (water mark?) on the obverse that only becomes obvious under magnification. A good trade off overall.

Here are some images, including some very large ones -- the kind that reveal a bit too much on most coins. This one holds its own in those intimate shots:

slab shot
closeup obverse
closeup reverse
extreme closeup of date
extreme closup of obverse denticles

At that magnification it looks more like a slightly off center strike than 2 clearly defined sets of denticles. The only unusual strike characteristics of the reverse I've found so far are the denticles to the north & southeast, both of which have an overstuck look to them in varying degrees:

north denticles
southeast denticles

Dog97

Yeah that's real nice! Really pretty. Not the sharpest strike but still well struck. Very few marks and the one on it are small. Great color. I'm sure the black spots are barely noticable. Like you said the pict reveals too much.
With your excellent pictures I now see ejection doubling.