#1 white coins vrs #1 color
monsterman
Posts: 797
i have seen some really nice white 79-s....80-s......81-s.....82-s and a host of other generaics sell for 120% of ask........i have seen the same dates and grades trade for 2000% of ask
now if one guy had a set of fifty white coins....and another all monster colored coins....yet the colored set had one coin in one less grade........would the white set be higher ranked in the pcgs registry??????
even though the colored set was worth 20 times the white set!!
unfortunately i think i know what most will say......so ngc has come up with a great idea !!!!!!...THE STAR *...........which stands for superior quality and eye appeal....
if you believe in gradeflation....buying the " STAR *" will sort of give you the leg up on the rest
when i buy a coin and pay to have it graded i dont want to play the grading game and have to do all the resubmitting ( while pcgs is raking in the $$ for submitting the same coin) to have it graded correctly....so i buy the best i can and always look for the STAR*
why didnt pcgs think of that.....to busy counting their money
maybe they should open the " five hunfred dollar " no bs" line and grade it right the first time.....geez..my post officeused to get rich off me!!....now i buy the STAR*
I`M OUT
GREGG
now if one guy had a set of fifty white coins....and another all monster colored coins....yet the colored set had one coin in one less grade........would the white set be higher ranked in the pcgs registry??????
even though the colored set was worth 20 times the white set!!
unfortunately i think i know what most will say......so ngc has come up with a great idea !!!!!!...THE STAR *...........which stands for superior quality and eye appeal....
if you believe in gradeflation....buying the " STAR *" will sort of give you the leg up on the rest
when i buy a coin and pay to have it graded i dont want to play the grading game and have to do all the resubmitting ( while pcgs is raking in the $$ for submitting the same coin) to have it graded correctly....so i buy the best i can and always look for the STAR*
why didnt pcgs think of that.....to busy counting their money
maybe they should open the " five hunfred dollar " no bs" line and grade it right the first time.....geez..my post officeused to get rich off me!!....now i buy the STAR*
I`M OUT
GREGG
my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
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The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
sincerely michael
do you listen to Jim Rome ?
I'm out !
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-541-7222 office
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
I think I am going to start buying NGC dollars as they have been offered to me at nice discounts off of Greysheet prices..not Monsters..just Generic stuff.
Larry
POB 854
Temecula CA 92593
310-541-7222 office
310-710-2869 cell
www.LSRarecoins.com
Larry@LSRarecoins.com
PCGS Las Vegas June 24-26
Baltimore July 14-17
Chicago August 11-15
We do not need the grading services telling us IN THEIR OPINION which ones look the best.
At least with grading and authentication there is a technical side to it. A star or any other "this coin is prettier than that one" is all strictly based on opinion and nothing else. The STAR is one of the reasons I will not buy NGC slabs.
Opinions are like A$$holes, everyone has one. And I for one think they need to keep theirs to themselves.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I believe the "photoseal" is a Rick Snow thing for Indian Cents and FE Cents. Nothing to do with the grading service.
Jon
(yes, the photoseal is very big with FE/Indians. If you can show examples of how it did not catch on, please enlighten me. Rick Snow is the biggest name in FE/Indians, not PCGS. If he places his seal, it is a nice coin)
<< <i>If PCGS had come out with concept first, I would suggest to you that most of you would embrace the concept, especially those of you in the registry. >>
IrishMike, AMEN
On a whole for most series the coins I have seen with a Star in my opinion deserved the designation. As an example my daughter has 16 Toned War Nickels in higher grades that have all been graded by NGC. Seven of the coins carry the star. When you lay them all out in one group you can see the difference why some would warrant a star over others in the same grade. All carried that extra blast of luster. that makes them stand out over the others. Now as far as the Morgan series. The only ones I have seen in any quantity in person so far have been the toned dollars that came out of the Binion Hoard. Most of these dollars in my opinion did not warrant the star designation. I don't know how NGC came up with there decision on these dollars, maybe they were comparing them with the other dollars that were in this hoard, and gave the star to what they considered the best. Or maybe I am just being too picky.
Frankly, I don't like the star designation. Eye appeal is supposed to be one factor in grading. If the coin has great eye appeal, give it the next number up. If the eye appeal isn't enough to warrant the higher grade then just sell it as a PQ coin of the lower grade. I don't think we want grading services to tell us which coins are PQ and which aren't. I think the 11 point uncirculated grades are more than enough differentiate coins. Just use them to the fullest, the way they are supposed to be used.
I don't mind the W for white dsignation, as long as it doesn't get any extra registry points. Too many coins are advertised as white which simply are not. This is a helpful designation.
Greg
>>>>>>Show me one coin that has ever sold for more money than a coin graded higher>>>>>>>y
you have got to be kidding me...an ngc 66 cleveland sold for 20 times bid at heritage fun auction and 5 times over the next grades bid........... a ngc 65 lafayette ( which was bought in philly ) upgraded to a pcgs 66......and was bought by legend for over 38,000...which is what....5 times 65 money and 3 times 66 money
.>>>>>>The number on the PCGS holder is the end all. Just because Gregg is pointing to specific real examples, that is all meaningless now that we have the PCGS registry>>>>>>
love it!!!!!...this means the smart collector has a much bigger population of coins to choose from than you do...which inturn means those with this attitude are in the matket place with one hand tied behind their backs...which in turn means my 14 year old will out collect you.....not to mention every one else........buzzzzzzzzzzzzz
and thats the buzzer ending the game
we win you lose....sorry charlie
ttyl
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Guy, you need to relax
<< <i>Bill is right. The number on the holder is the absolute end all, especially if it is a PCGS holder. Actually the coin has very little to do with it. It should be very evident by prices realized. Show me one coin that has ever sold for more money than a coin graded higher. I don't care if it was toned, properly graded ladeladela. The number on the PCGS holder is the end all. Just because Gregg is pointing to specific real examples, that is all meaningless now that we have the PCGS registry. It is so nice to know we have someone who is looking out for us. Thanx for keeping us straight Bill. >>
I do not know how you interpreted all that from what I said but you are clearly off base.
I am well aware that the eye appeal between coins in any grades vary. Even that some lower grade coins have better eye appeal than some of the higher graded coins and as such bring a premimum.
I buy what I like..... If I do not agree with the grade assigned to a coin I pass and keep looking until I find one (WITH the eye appeal I like).
MY ONLY POINT was, is it not enough the grading services are assigning a grade (that at least has some technical basis) and people are out there paying absurd prices based on that alone regardless of their own opinions?
Now everyone wants to also let them decide which coins in any given grade has better eye appeal (strictly opinion based) so they can pay absurd prices based on that also.
At least with the way it is now I can cherry pick the coins in the grade I want, where I agree with the grade assigned and it has the eye appeal I like only limited by the pop of coins in that grade. With a STAR or any like designation I will be even more restricted in my pursuit to the few the grading services are telling me are prettier than the rest.
I do not like toned coins but it appears that 90% of the stars are given to toned coins. So I would have to just buy coins that are ugly to me or be penalized because I do not agree.
How much control are we willing to give the grading services? Can we not think for ourselves and buy what we like.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Thanks for that link.
<< <i>NGC defines its star designated coins as those that have exceptional eye appeal. The coin itself could fall anywhere within the grade it is assigned, IE: if it were an MS64 it could be at the lower end, mid-range or higher end of that grade. Let me add that a star designated coin should not be thought of in the same way one would think of a “PQ” (Premium Quality) coin. When I think of a PQ coin, one that just misses the next grade immediately comes to mind. That coin may or may not have exceptional eye appeal. >>
I guess that says it all. A star means nothing when it comes to the grade.... All it means is they think they are prettier. All based on opinion.
Like I said, let us decide what coins have the eye appeal we like. As such if they bring a premimum when sold so be it. If they do not then I guess the market has spoken.
But why should a coin demand a premimum only because the graders thought it was pretty? Why should a coin bring a premimum just because of the grade assigned to it by the graders?
I won't pay premimum based on a grade assigned by someone else and I won't pay premimum based on someone elses definition of eye appeal.
I will pay premimum for a coin I decide meets the grade assigned and has the eye appeal I like.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
Why should collectors be penalized because they like White coins? Just because they do not cost as much? That is called collector preference. Just because a collector likes toned coins and pays a premimum to have them does not mean his set is better in the regestry. Just more expensive.
Your interpretation of the STAR is a little off also.
<< <i>THE STAR *...........which stands for superior quality and eye appeal....if you believe in gradeflation....buying the " STAR *" will sort of give you the leg up on the rest >>
By NGC own defination the star has nothing to do with grade or imply the coin is "superior quality" (PQ Premimum Quality)
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
You are right, it probably is alot of double talk.
But I still feel it should be left up to us the collectors to determin which coins do or do not have the eye appeal we like and which ones we feel are PQ for the grade. And based on our opinions pay what we feel is appropriate for that coin in its assigned grade.
The only service a third party GRADING service should provide is grading and authentication.
NOW:
Collector 1; Look at my slabbed MS64.
Collector 2; That is no MS64, you are stupid. Buy the coin not the slab.
NEAR FUTURE:
Collector 1; Look at my slabbed MS64 & it is beautiful, see it has a star.
Collector 2; That is no MS64 and is the ugliest thing I have seen in a long time, you are stupid. Buy the coin not the slab.
Edited to add smiley faces
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
That is fine if you value their opinions above you own.
Most collectors have a hard enough time agreeing with their grades (buy the coin not the slab) why complicate the issue even more.
Refer to my previous post.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
>>>>>>If PCGS was consistent in their grading standards>>>>>>
thats a big if...but they arent consistent.....they want to undergrade way too many coins and make everyone pay multiple grading fees to get the coin in the right holder...this undergrading inturn increases the dealer bids ( so they can pick your boxes of your upgraded coins and leave you with the rest )....this increase in the bids inturn makes them ( as a whole ) worth more...but not all of them ....just the ones the professional wants..so he can make the $$$ and not you
when you have a coin graded what you are really doing is paying for an appraisal.....how would you like to have your house appraised 5 times before it got the same appraisal as the identical floor plan down the street........and if you didnt know there was the same floor plan down the street .....YOU LOOSE.....there in lies the problem
again i say .....if you buy pq coins.....no matter what holder they are in ......and if you believe in gradeflation which is a FACT.....and you hold your coins for a while.......then when its time to sell you can put them into what ever holder that is worth more at the time ....
back to the STAR*..........we are in an expanding market....that is more and more people chasing the same defined amount of coins.....with a fixed supply.... the prices can only go up.....i myself want the newbees to get a fair shake and not get run off because of grading errors....the STAR * DOES LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD AWAY FROM THE BIG CRACK OUT BOYS
a little ditty for you....a few years ago there was a crack out guy who paid 25000 for 2 raw monster stone mountains...they were mooses to say the least...naturally his goal is to max them out and have them annointed as the finest which they are....he was hoping to crack the 69 barrier...something that neither service has done yet.....immediately he sent them to pcgs...and both returned 68....the cracked them again ( no risk here because he was trying to 69 them ..or at least one of them..and even if one got caught up in the " grading game " and they 67 ed it he would just crack it again....and again )....well he is disaplined and gave it his shots and gave up....however the best of the 2 he sent to ngc to see if it they would 69 it....they didnt ...so off to auction they went he....now he is an upgrader and knows that there are several dealers and collectors out there who know what a pcgs 68 coin is so he left the best one in an ngc holder .....the lesser of the 2 was now in a pcgs holder and the best in a ngc holder.......the pcgs 68 was first and closed at 21000.... ( remember the most important person at an auction is the underbidder ...so now the new owner of the first coin who was the underbidder until they became the high bidder was out of the way that was one less bidder ).......the the floor had several people up until 14000 on the nicest coin.....of the 3 people left were 2 dealers and me...........of which i i do a lot of business with....one quick nasty look at them both ( which is what i used to do to running backs) and their paddels went down...and bingo the best one was hammered at a shade under 18000.....GREAT..... THE BEST COIN AT A 3000 DISCOUNT.......i do from time to time play the grading game ....for several reasons ( which i will tell anyone who wants to know )...so i sent it to pcgs to 69 it too.....nope then to ngc....nope ...so that is the holder it still resides today......someday it will be annointed as a 69....probably at ngc.......a year or 2 later it will 69 at pcgs......you see in my opinion ( and several others ) i know where in the pecking order it is and so do the services ...but one must pay the freight first.....the coin is the coin...and if you believe in gradeflation....and if you believe the services are really ranking coins ( WHICH IS WHAT THE REGISTRY IS ALL ABOUT ).....then the coin will get to where its going
btw .........dan r is the crackout guru .......and he loved seeing it on display in ny at the ana.....and his comments where " one day they will 69 it ....you should try it again"........and i said......."many know about ......but i think i`ll wait for a 70....:-) "
****the coin`s type is shown as XXXX to protect the dealer and collector in this story..i wrote it with it in there but thought better of it rather than have certain people know who the players are******
there are dozens of stories like this...i could fill volumns of threads with ...but ill give you one more quickie.....a few ana`s ago another of the great crackout boys bought the latrinta xxxxxx for 11250 in a pcgs 66 holder...it was the best i have ever seen.....he tried it at pcgs 5 times and nada...then 3 times at ngc and nada...he then put it in an acution where i was only too happy to buy it in the ngc holder for 6250 ( a mixture of being in the right place and a little momentary weakness in the high end xxxxx market )..and into my collection it went....A REAL MOOSE OF A COIN......unbelievably....a moose of all mooses came to me from one of my secret sources...and pow.......yea i did pay 14000 for it.....it was in a pcgs holder....thus the ngc coin in my set was now expendable.....i offered it to a collector friend of mine ...who btw was sharp enough to remember the coin and was tracking it but not sharp enough to not care whos holder it was in...he passed ( and is still xxxxxless to this day even though he just passed on the second best i have sever seen and definately in the top 5 there is) ....anyway the next person i approached said yea i`ll pay your price .....my collector has a moose but your is better...but my collector only wants pcgs.....i said no problem.....i then went to another dealer raised the price a 1000 dollars ......because i knew this dealer would say the same thing....yea we will buy it but my collector only wants pcgs.....so off to the pcgs table i went...submitted it for cross....an hour later i went to the pcgs table and got the coin back uncrossed....i said geezzzz da&%....38766%$...i then went 20 feet away grabed a plyers from a friend and cracked it....put it into a flip and resubmitted...2 hours later( and 2 grading fees and 200 instead of 100) it was in a pcgs 66 holder and it went bye bye..........since i anticipated the new owners request i added the extra 1000....so the score was .....me + 800....pcgs + 200....and the collector -1000
it happens everyday.......but not with those darn STAR * coins....there are some who know great coins when they see them.....now everyone can know because ngc is pointing them out....so maybe your right ...i shouldnt like the STAR * .....it has removed all the advantage i had on most people......&&&%%$*(^%4
and all my expertice has been compromized ....and ngc is telling the world what it took me years to learn....**(*%%#*&(**&(
just my 2 cents
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
why on earth would ngc want to tell the world what is a premium coin and what isnt????
why on earth would they want to level the playing field and let all the newbbes know
why on earth would they want to take away from me 30 years of looking at millions of coins and just hand over all the knowledge i use to have but is now openly displayed with the STAR*
why on earth would they want to give you a STAR* for just one grading fee...where others charge several fees to get it properly graded
dont they realize what we are paying for with a fee....an appraisal of how the coin stands up to the rest of the population....we want to pay several fees for such an appraisal..dont we??
who are they to take away the dealers and advanced collectors advantage with that silly litlte STAR*....i am not a dealer just a collector who tries to improve my sets everyday.......why on earth would they do such a thing.....what .....are they trying to be honest for a change.......heck i`m not ready yet.......i always pay premiums for coins from the smart people who have them....and i dont pay premiums from the people who arent smart......now everyone knows what they have and my costs now have gone up for pq coins.....geez i used to get : rips" all the time.....now the darned collector ( and some not so smart dealers of which there are many)knows what he has.....geez i bought a coin from a dealer about 6 monthsago who didnt have a clue what he had...i almost blurted out an offer...but i quickly asked him his asking price when he said i`ll take 8 for it....i thought well mmmmmmmmmm ok .....he then handed it to his partner and "said write this up for mr bingham at 800 ......i almost fell over.....but i righted myself.... whipped out the ole checkbook and wrote the check for 800 little ones.....you see i knew just where to go with that coin for 10,000 and when he said 8 i thought he meant 8000 in which i could make 2000 for a 25 yard walk across the bourse floor( that was better than football).....now thanks to ngc `s STAR * i guess the days of me thinking a 2000 profit but getting handed a 9200 profit for my 25 yard walk are gone..... i suppose the dumb dealer wont get coins like that anymore because the dumb collector who sold it to him will be more informed and know what he has............and wont leave that kind of money on the table anymore ...heck he might even keep the coin and leave it to his kids who just might find out what in the heck that STAR * is!!!!!!!it just might even be the executor of his estate
heck we dont want full disclosure....we dont want everyone to know....we want to stiffle the growth of the hobby and let them there newbees learn the hard way like we did...WITH OUR CHECKBOOKS....heck let them pay some dues....lets get some of our dues back first!!! dont announce it to the world with that STAR* thing !!!!!!
dam(**&(*&^$&^%$.......ngc....you rained on my party!!! i was killin em.....and you had to go play rightous and tell everyone!!!!
i`m out
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I am one of those hunt and peck typist and your post was not there when I started.
<< <i>That is fine if you value their opinions above you own. >>
Never have and never will, just trying to remind people that these grading services are giving out opinions, and what they say is not the last word.
I really wish I know your true modivation behind supporting this.
<< <i>why on earth would ngc want to tell the world what is a premium coin and what isnt???? >>
Better question is why do they feel the need to be so smug as to try and impose their opinions on the collecting community?
<< <i>why on earth would they want to level the playing field and let all the newbbes know >>
Already done it is called 3rd party GRADING & AUTHENTICATION.
<< <i>why on earth would they want to take away from me 30 years of looking at millions of coins and just hand over all the knowledge i use to have but is now openly displayed with the STAR* >>
So you think a third party grading services opinion on eye appeal is equal to your 30 years expereance and everyone now sees eye to eye?
<< <i>why on earth would they want to give you a STAR* for just one grading fee...where others charge several fees to get it properly graded >>
And how many re submissions have there been trying to get the holy STAR?
And you really wish us to believe the STAR will put an end to the crack out game? If anything it will make it worse, not only will coins be cracked out looking for that next grade but everyone will be cracking to achieve the holy STAR. Why? Same reason they crack them trying to get the next better grade.....MONEY
I think the rest of your post explains your position very well. You want to be able to throw a STAR in collectors faces to entice them into liking something they normally would not to achieve a higher return on the coins. Besides what good are their opinions when they do not agree with you?
The STAR is just a new game for dealers to play to manipulate collectors into not thinking for themselves and spend more money.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
sorry bill but the market doesnt agree with you..........are you aware that mant coins trade under the market????....in the next heritage sale in longbeach there is a coin...a good date.......86-s.......in pcgs ...it will trade under the market...aka back of bluesheet.....there are hundreds more just like it......
are you not aware that thousands of colectors are coming into the hobby thinking there is the pricelist here is the bid and ask....thats not to reasonable to pay the spread....so they pay it.....not knowing when the selling time comes they will get 20 % in back of ask.......
surely you know thats the way diamonds trade....their sheets are called " the rapp report".....you really dont think that jewler seeling you that 10,000 diamond at a 9500 bid and 10000 ask is really only making 500 do you????......bet he wouldnt tell you he pays 25% back of rapp and he is making 3000 on you
bill.....please dont tell me you think when you bought your last car you got it for a " hundred over"......over what ....the roof....the hood ?????
and please dont tell me when you buy that next car at " zero % interest"......you really think it is zero %
naturally you understand when a car stickers at 28000 and you get a great deal for 3000 off...the moment you start it you just lost 4000
now you might be great at coins but you got hosed at the jewler or car dealership....my poiny was i really dont want newbees telemarketed into the hobby which happens by the truckload evreyday....to be blasted into instant up-side-down-ness from day one
i am sorry to peep your hole card.........
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
You are correct, that is how it works with gem stones, cars, coins and a lot of other goods purchased every day. I am not that naive.
But don’t you be naive enough to think a STAR will make everything better in the coin hobby. You are not going to do any better come selling time STAR or no STAR. The premium a collector pays for that STAR will not be returned to them come selling time by the dealers (they are still dealers in business to make money). Percentage wise their losses will probably be even greater due to the premium paid. The star is what it is, a way for dealers to lure more collectors into paying premium based on the opinions of a few without regard to the opinion of the collector. Without the star a new collector can use his own judgement as to what coin appeals to them and decide for himself what if any premium it is worth to them.
Answer this; If the star is such a great advance in the hobby and evens the playing field, WHY do so many dealers like it? Are they sick and tired of making money?
By the way, I refuse to buy new cars because I cannot accept the loss I would suffer the second I drive it off the lot.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
>>>>>>>.But don’t you be naive enough to think a STAR will make everything better in the coin hobby>>>>>>>>
i dont think it will make everything better....but i`ll tell you this NOBODY KNOWS IT ALL....after 30 years i`m happy to say i dont and never will and thats what keeps me interested......its sort of like golf....a lot of people play because they cant master it..but they keep trying...year after year.....now i dont know what your expertise is in this hobby but if for instance it is pennies........i really dont know the nuances of pennies....yea i can tell a 66 red form a 66 rb.....but to be quite frank i cant tell a pq from a nicely graded one.....now if you put a STAR * on it .....i could start to learn what to look for....so you see the STAR*does indeed have a use for all .....as a tool.....not to mention it being fair notice to all that your looking at a very premium coin!!!!!!!!!!
now take the commem seris.....there are 50 diferent coins and to me its the most challenging series........in morgans i could tell most all the coins mint mark by looking at the obverse.........i could tell you a cc from a o mint and a p from a s mint..and a lot of the dates i could tell you the year from the reverse.....but the commem series is really tuff..........and i learn something everyday.....for example i have looked at hundreds of connecticuts .....numerous 66 coins and several 67 coins.......and couldnt figure out why this pq coin i was looking at was not a 68......it took me about 4 years to see it....and it happened when i bought the only one graded 68......its in the strike.....the whole coin when struck up as best as it could be struck up is 3-d........the oak tree literally jumps through the plastic...it has full bough branch and concave indention.....and the leaves are so thick you can almost see the other side........with the sesqui.....those little scratches you see on the face....those arent scratches....they are planchet abrassions that never got struck off due to a poor design coupled with a lowered stricking pressure.......these examples are given to just name a few!!!!!
>>>>>>>>You are not going to do any better come selling time STAR or no STAR. The premium a collector pays for that STAR will not be returned to them come selling time by the dealers >>>>>>>>>
the above statement tells me something about you!!!!.......it is where your logic goes right down the toilet.......what you should say is..........i am very good at my series....i am very confident in my abilities as a collector.... i have worked hard and have done a great job.......if i sent my collection in......i would have more STAR * coins than the big dipper......then you would know you have arrived
if you cant agree then i`m afraid your out to lunch.........so in order to tell you how it works here goes...........the collectors want the best they can find in the grade they can afford.........make no mistake about it.....the coins most desired will be the ones with a STAR*.....BECAUSE THEY ARE PREMIUM QUALITY.....AND THEY ARE THE MOST DESIREABLE.........DEALERS WHO WANT TO STAY IN BUSINESS WILL BUY WANT THE CUSTOMERS WANT....THEY WILL PAY THE PREMUIMS .....OR GO PUMP GAS
now on the other hand ....ANOYONE WHO DOESNT WANT THE .......STAR*.....has something to hide....a poor collection .....or has been scamming ........i remember when grading started ......all those who sold au 58 coins as ms 62 coins where against it........in baseball cards.....all those who altered cards and sold them as gem were against card grading
IF YOU OR ANYONE HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE .......STAR*.......I HAVE ONLY 2 CONCLUSIONS TO DRAW FROM
1) YOU HAVE DONE A POOR JOB OF COLLECTING AND THE RESULTS ARE SHOWN IN YOUR COLLECTION
2) YOUR UP TO SOMETHING THAT IS NOT GOOD
now if there is a vaild 3 rd or 4 th conclusion i missed ....PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME!!!
BUT HAVE A TAKE AND DONT SU$K
regards
gregg
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
I also believe that some buyers of starred NGC holders are concerned that if the concept dies then they will have nothing of additional value to sell later on........I do not share that view........as these slabs may indeed have incremental value as the coin should have been PQ for the grade if they were bought right by the collector!
If I'm looking for a coin in a particular grade range 64 ~ 65 and I see a star all it indicates to me is someone at the grading service gave their "opinion" that this coin is PQ for the grade. Ultimately I look at the coin and decide if it's got what I think is the extra eye appeal over the other coins I've seen in the same grade to warrant paying any kind of premium.
As an average collector I'm not looking to pay wholesale prices. I look at the Redbook, Trends, check the on- line price guides, look at the Heritage prices realized and check with a few dealers. That gives me a feel for the price range for a particular coin/grade. If I really like the coin and after doing a little research feel the price plus premium justified I buy the coin, star or no star.
The star in my mind is a flashing sign saying "take a closer look". It's still what's in the slab that counts.
>>>>>>The star in my mind is a flashing sign saying "take a closer look">>>>>>>>
you are exactly right ...........i firmly believe its tool by which ngc helps level the playing field for the collectors and takes away some of the " dealer advantage"....thus by having the benefit of the tool i feel ngc fully plans on it closing the gap on pcgs in the market place as a whole company........and to be frank ......i feel the STAR* graded coins in particular.......you will see them surpass pcgs!!!!!!!
and if you think about it i would guarantee STAR * rated coins would trade more than pcgs coins ...........................if they would have their own pricesheet columns in the grey sheet
now think about this.........icg `s biggest problem is that the other 2 services ( ngc and pcgs ) dont want them listed in the pricesheets because all it does is cut into their markets..the lack of being listed really hurts icg.........and i buy their coins all the time because i pick and choose..and put my grading skills on the line against less competition....if they were listed it would indeed be much harder for me
remember....if you wanted to start a grading service you have to fugure out where you fit in...........grade tuffer and you get no submissions...grade too weak and you get no collectors thus no market....grade just a hair below and you can survive....maybe....( the size of the hair is paramount).....there are thousands of properly graded icg coins and are very under appreciated and thus sometimes go begging for a buyer.....TO ME THIS IS OPPORTUNITY........but if you want them to be in ngc or pcgs slabs.....your going to have to crack `em......RARELY does the competion want to cross `em .....its gives them ( icg ) validity which is something the 2 majors dont want to do!!
on another service ( ANACS....the oldest one).....about 5 years ago i saw a very smart dealer buying hundreds of anacs gold slabs.....as it turned out anacs was undergrading way too much of its gold....he quitely bought hundreds and cracked them and upgraded almost all of them into pcgs holders.....he made about 400,000 doing this.....where were you????????? BETTER YET ....WHERE WAS I????.....well i came very late to the party and not only missed dinner but desert too.....all i got was a cup of joe......but i learned something ....and now....... so have you!!
ttyl
gregg
ps ......but i learned something ....and now....... so have you!!
one more thing and back to the STAR*...some might have trouble with seeing pq coins...some havent learned the difference yet...some might not ever know the difference.....BUT IF ANACS HAD THE STAR*........DO YOU THINK THAT DEALER WOULD OF MADE 400,000 ......OR DO YOU THINK SOME OF US COLLECTORS WOULD OF SPLIT THE MONEY??????
******** THINK ABOUT IT**********
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
What happened to the whole argument of "I don't like stars because it
takes away some of the advantage I have over less experienced collectors"?
>the collectors want the best they can find in the grade they can afford
I would add something in there about price. Maybe I can afford an
MS65* but I can't afford an MS66*. I also can afford an MS66 and I
choose that over an MS65*. I don't think that makes my collection
poor. It just my decision what I want for the money I spend.
Everyone says they want coins that are high for the grade and
that seems silly to me. Who are all these collectors buying the
less than average coins? Also what if you have a PQ66 that you end
up resubmitting and it comes back 67? Now it may be low to mid for
the grade. Do you want to sell it now? I think most people mean
that want coins that are a good value (quality versus price).
Is anyone else reminded of a certain Dr Seuss story by all this?
-KHayse
<< <i>now on the other hand ....ANOYONE WHO DOESNT WANT THE .......STAR*.....has something to hide....a poor collection .....or has been scamming ........i remember when grading started ......all those who sold au 58 coins as ms 62 coins where against it........ >>
Incorrect on all counts
I have stated my reasons clearly in my previous posts, you do not have to agree with them but to say if I do not agree with you I am hiding something or my collection is $hit? That opinion says volumes.
I am not a dealer, the only times I sell coins is when I have upgraded my collection. I buy the coins I like in the grades and eye appeal I want and like. I appreciate the third party grading system that provides a technical opinion on a coin in a grading system that has gotten more and more complicated over the years and weeds out the problem coins to protect collectors new and old. I just do not feel they should be giving purely opinionated designations that have no technical basis.
I have always been an advocate of third party grading and authentication. I feel it was one of the best things to happen in this hobby. It has saved numerous new collectors from getting fleeced from all the scum bag dealers that swarmed to this business with the intent to screw as many as possible for a quick buck and there are still a lot out there.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
I`m under the impression,(a previous post),that you 'worked' for PCGS at one time, is this true?
Please continue the stories about grading and monster coins.This is the most interesting stuff I`ve read here for some time.On the other hand, maybe your stories will encourage more competition at the shows for the upgrades,maybe you better keep quiet!
>>>>>>>>>>I just do not feel they should be giving purely opinionated designations that have no technical basis.>>>>>>>>
i dont get you.....i try but i really dont
well tell me if you think its good for the hobby to have people "flash in " with a few million for a few years and flash out losing 300,000 to 500,000??.......yes or no
bob d...the 5 th ranked guy on the morgan registry did just that......he thought coins where a commodity and bought the grade and was price conscious.....he sort of struted around and so did his main dealer.....both thought they put together a master piece.....in 3 years no less...YEA RIGHT ........anyway about half the set was really good and half was not so good........and when he went to sell he found all the not so good ones still in his box........he still had coins over a year later.....a great 100 coin set is gone in a week.........
now if bob d would of been buying the STAR* ....he wouldnt of gotten wacked at sell time and the market would have a few more million to play with......THAT MIGHT BE WANTING TO BUY YOUR COINS!!!!!
******* THE STAR * IS THE LAST WORD******************
it will seperatre the wheat from the chaffe
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
Well at least you tried. I do understand your perspective but we will just have to do what so many in this hobby do everyday, agree to disagree.
I appears to me bob d had a lousy dealer. He obviously did not do his homework very well before entrusting someone with his money. I do however feel for him but in a way it was his own fault, not that by any means makes it ok. Since he thought coins where a commodity and bought the grade and was price conscious would he or his dealer spent the money to buy star coins? Who knows but there is no guarantee the star designation would have prevented it from happening. A fool and his money will soon part ways regardless of what anyone does. (I am not calling bob d a fool)
Good luck in your endevors.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
When you take that closer look, do you find that the * coins are worthy of the premium that will now be placed on them by dealers? Or can you find equally as attractive coins elsewhere for less because they don't have a star on them?
I've always liked NGC, but not their * and "white" designation. I don't need anytone to tell me if a coin is toned or not, or if they happen to think it's particularly high on eye appeal.
Fortunately, NGC discontinued their "W" designation, read all about it
http://www.collectors-society.com/news/viewarticle.asp?IDArticle=73
....ANOYONE WHO DOESNT WANT THE .......STAR*.....has something to hide....
I don't know Greg, this is a pretty broad statement. I have a few coins that would likely get the designation if I sent them back, but I couldn't care less about it and have no intention of getting it done. Does that really mean I have something to hide, or I have done a poor job of collecting and the results are shown in my collection, or I am up to something that is no good?
There are only so many coins to be graded, the services are doing everything they can to keep the revenues flowing. Flag inserts, * designations, pedigrees, changing standards, label colors, etc. are all just gimmicks to keep people chasing the elusive slab nirvana. l prefer to look past these games and focus on the real issue, which is the pursuit of coins I like.
i always like people who know why they believe ...what they believe ...for it is the basis for higher thinking...while we dont agree on some things there are numerous issues im sure we would agree.....i like the fact you think on your own ( thats not saying others here dont because they do but might of just refrained from stating their " 2 cents")
tonelover
>>>>>>.I've always liked NGC, but not their * and "white" designation. I don't need anytone to tell me if a coin is toned or not, or if they happen to think it's particularly high on eye appeal.>>>>>
im sure you know you go agaisnt the norm here....i always enjoyed it when i made a pod ( play of the day ) and it was showed on tv......in fact i have never met anyone who said ..." awe dont show my pod "....until you.....i am not familiar with people who work their butts off doing something ( be it coin collecting ...sports....the work place...charity work....millitary or what ever ) and turned down the accolades that might come their way
>>>>>>ANOYONE WHO DOESNT WANT THE .......STAR*.....has something to hide>>>>>>>>
this is a broad statement by me which was i exagerated to make a point.......i guess i know someone now who doesnt want the recognition of owning a premier piece.....you.........i`ll bet you love it when at work another person gets the laurels for something you started or invented....im sure you will like it when they pass out the merit pay raises too.........if you were in the military ...im sure you would love to save a platoon of men and hand over your medal of honor to the next guy.........i could go on and on a million senarios but you get my point
>>>>>>> I have a few coins that would likely get the designation if I sent them back, but I couldn't care less about it and have no intention of getting it done. Does that really mean I have something to hide, or I have done a poor job of collecting and the results are shown in my collection, or I am up to something that is no good?>>>>>
i know you could care less....and it makes me wonder!!!!!!no you have nothing to hide ......but maybe your hiding your brain!!!!because i cant for the life of me see it!!!!
so your saying when it comes time to sell you will take potenially less money for your hard work ...and that is someting i dont understand......i can understand you not wanting the extra $$$ or not needing it...but your heirs could maybe use it or you could maximize your returns and do something good for charity....build a building for the church or school with the extra dough
FACTIOD:...the most important person at an auction is the underbidder for it is he who makes the winner pay the price he paid
that being said i regret to inform you that the STAR* would never hurt the number of bidders at your auction it will ONLY HELP...the fact is ....it might just help keep some of those paddles in the air a little longer ....yes there is a good chance a guy might just say ...geez i need that STAR* coin for my center piece of my set and stick his hand up .....and keep it there a little longer.....fact is if you had a bunch of STAR * coins ....you just might have several people keeping their paddles in the air coin after coin
NOW THE ABOVE IS A FACT....AND IF YOU CONTEST IT...THAN..YOU ARE .....?????????
so now tell me ....please give me a logical reason why on earth you
>>>>>>>>have no intention of getting it done>>>>>>>>>>>
pleae make it good so we can all understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>l prefer to look past these games and focus on the real issue, which is the pursuit of coins I like>>>>>>>
and please dont play this card..........because if you like ugly......great ....buy ugly.......i know there is a guy building the ugliest set...you can compete with him....do you buy strike.........great buy strike....if your series demands strike ....im sure you will be competitive.......what is exactly "coin i like"?.....while we all dont like the same things ....and everyone is entitled to their opinion.........but when your blinking down your hard earned cash ...and the cash amount surpasses what i call the "disposable entertainment level" and goes into the " i better be responsible level "........YOU HAD BETTER LIKE WHAT THE MAJORITY LIKES OR YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR MONEY
*******with that said please .....please .....please give me some solid logic of your opinions.......for logic says that your opinions will only cost you money.....and i dont understand*****************
>>>>>. I don't need anytone to tell me if a coin is toned or not, or if they happen to think it's particularly high on eye appeal>>>>>
or this
>>>>>>>have no intention of getting it done>>>>>>>
i ......no.......... we.......are waiting!!!!!!!!
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
<< <i>As an average collector I'm not looking to pay wholesale prices. I look at the Redbook, Trends, check the on- line price guides, look at the Heritage prices realized and check with a few dealers. That gives me a feel for the price range for a particular coin/grade. If I really like the coin and after doing a little research feel the price plus premium justified I buy the coin, star or no star. >>
Exactly what I've done for years. Who cares if some service puts an extra designation on the slab? How is that going to give some incentive to buy the coin. That is absurd. I use the slab grade primarily as a guide then I do what PMH does to find the approximate price zone. I also use the slab for authentication. After than I'd just as soon have the coin out of the holder...only problem there is if I want to sell or do a registry (which I've threatened to do but haven't as of yet) I've got to have it slabbed again.
jom
(1) increase the valuation for their starred slabbed coins which could force many changes in the grading service business...and
(2) decrease the demand for non starred NGC slabbed coins......
Based on this what are we really seeing?
A doubling of the number of grades between 60 and 70. Now we will have <60.5 (non starred) and >60.5 (starred). I am not sure the hobby is quite ready for this just yet. Will there be a 70 with a star? Will there be an AU with a star? Is an MS-64* going to be considered a 65? I am not attacking, just asking questions at this point.
However, I do have some other thoughts as well...if NGC goes into another one of their loose grading fits, that will be the end of the star program. It will lose credibility fast.
I certainly see no harm in taking a "second look" at these starred coins. But I am concerned that dealers will push NGC to use the star program to push crippled coins for the grade for mass marketing programs.
I have not completely thought this through.
PCGS has the advantage here as they watch what NGC does and take only the best of what NGC pioneers at a fraction of the cost.
On another note, I see that the W program initiated by NGC failed. I expected that. W was not a qualitative clarification to the grade as anyone could see if the coin was white or not. It had little usefulness.
The jury s still out on the star program.
al h.
As far as the NGC STAR stuff goes, I'm not impressed with it. Many of the starred pieces IMO are not PQ by any stretch. They may have been prettier than the normal coin, or blastier, but often with an extra % of marks to go along. The coin is decent for the grade with a nice look, and that's it. I have better luck finding truly PQ (or star) coins in old PCGS or NGC holders. And it's the same game. The old green insert or first generation holder does not in itself guarantee a PQ or STAR coin. But it's a good place to start looking from. If you figure the services have a tough enough time assigning proper grades > 80% of the time, how do you expect them to assign stars correctly?
The PR's realized at the Superior ANA sale clearly indicated that not all PCGS coins are created equal (same comment for NGC too). I saw a number of average silver type pieces bring well under greysheet and some below average ones bring blue sheet or LESS. Then again some monsters brought as much as 2-3X sheet value. The dealers and knowledgeable collectors are buying the coins often regardless of the holders. Occasionally unknowledgeable buyers will get into the action and pay too strong for a poor piece just because of the slabbed grade. There are a lot of lousy slabbed coins in the auctions bringing lousy prices or being sent back to their owners. It's a speed trap for sure. But the trend of a high end vs. low end market is clear and supports Gregg's theory about going for the monsters to benefit from the next round of grade inflation. And you can find monsters in any grade and at any price range too.
roadrunner
peacockcoins
and rightfully they should.....and here is a case in point
about 5 years ago a collector came to the market to build a set of very high grade morgans....when i started (13 years ago ) the market was on its butt and there were only a few players the biggest was jack lee.......for all intents and purposes he was the market....i knew ALL the great coins would come his way before ANYONE ELSE.....am i making sence so far......you see all the dealers came to him when a coin surfaced because he was the buyer for them all.........so i made an alliance with him....if he passed id buy....thus more coins came his way........thus if there were only 2 97-o graded 67 he owned one ....when the other came to him id buy it ( after he choose one of the 2 ) ....this went on for years......and it allowed me to see every moose there was for years....so you see i had a whale of a head start ....and boy i had some monsters
anyway along came bob d.....he thought he could build a set in a few years and match mine......lol.......but he was serious........well he did it ( so he thought and so the regisrty says )....but about half the 100 coin collection was really nice coins and they could hang with the best of them......but the other half was just so-so
my theory has always been ....NEVER BUY A COIN ID BE AFRAID TO BREAK OUT..........he on the other hand bought the number on the slab....one day i got a little tired of his " stuff" and challenged him to a $100,000 break-out game...where we break tem all out and send them in...---he puts up a hundy and so do i and winner takes the 200 grand......well he passed....and we both know why!!!!!...it wasnt even close.....well i put my set up for sale and so did he .......all my coins sold in a week.......and some of his were still on the market 2 years later......
since then i have seen over 30 of my pedigreed coins sent in for regrade and get upgraded....i have never seen one of bob d`s
now if pcgs would of thought of the STAR*......the registry would be different........and i might still be playing......but they didnt and ngc did ....so off to ngc i went with my commems........where they will be appreciated for what they are ......not where guys like bob d can buy 50 just made it pcgs coins and beat ya on the registry.... ONLY TO GET SMOKED AT SELLING TIME WHICH IS THE REAL TESTAMENT TO A QUALITY SET.......WHICH DOESNT SAY MUCH FOR THE ACCURACY OF THE REGISTRY NOW DOES IT
btw i could of sold my 92-s in 67.......bought a 65.......upgraded 12 generics at a cost of 35,000........and beat his numbers straight up...and put 35,000 cash in my pocket to boot.....you see i knew i always had a better set than his....i had the key coins he didnt have.....he could never over take my set as i know morgans as well as anyone and i owned the key coins..aka " the stoppers "....but the registry formula is flawed by design........and its flaw is the weighting system.....the ngc system is proprietary and it formula is secret....but i can tell you that part of its formula is dollars.....where rarer coins are proved to be rare by the dollar amounts people pay for them..... i entered all the morgan sets in it and they all came out as they should using it.....THE REGISTRY NEVER SHOWED THAT STATISTIC OF ME JUST SELLING MY 92-S AND UPGRADING MY GENERICS......WHICH IF IT WORKED PROPERLY IT WOULD OF!!!
think about it!!!!!
THE REAL REASON I DIDNT UPGRADE MY GENERICS IS BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL MOOSES AND UNDERGRADED ANYWAY......they arent anymore...mike casper has seen to that
OH ENOUGH OF THIS STUFF......THE BOTTOMLINE IS I HAD TO PAY A HELL OF A LOT OF INCOME TAXES ON MY SET AND HE TOOK A TAX LOSS......THATS THE REAL REGISTRY!!!
well time to go
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
OK ORV........I HAVE READ 19,347 PAGES OF THE 21,979 PAGES OF THE TAX CODE......WHAT DID I MISS??
THANKS
GREGG
out of rockets ...out of bullets...switching to harsh language
peacockcoins