Does anyone believe in "value" coins vs. "High end" coins?

Hunt

I collect coins that I feel hold the best value. Should I spend a lot more money for just one jump in grading, just to have a scarcer grade? I define this word "value" as such:

1) A coin that costs not too much more than one graded just below it (example MS60 for $300, MS62 $350).

2) A coin that costs considerably less than one graded just one point higher (MS62 $350, MS63 $1200).

3) A coin that has great eye appeal and no major problems, can also be just short of being upgraded to a higher level.

I also feel that value coins are easier to unload if need be because they tend to be more affordable, but still very attractive. Plus, more buyers are out there who can afford these coins. Also, as those "monster" coins become so prohibitive, won't the coins just below them become the next target, thus increasing the value of the "value" coins (no pun intended)

I read everywhere to buy the best coin you can afford. Should I always buy the best coin I can afford or should I buy these value coins?

Obviously, for anyone who wants the highest graded coin for say a registry set or something such "value" coins are not as popular.
Let me know what you guys think.

-Hunter

Placid

If you want to collect coins that will hold the best value then maybe get some rolls from a bank and cherry pick them.

EVillageProwler

Excellent thread.

I buy the best value coins that I can afford, and I do so in the best value series that I like.

For example, I like Early and Seated Dollars. Early Dollars are too hot right now, while Seated Dollars pretty fairly languish. With few exceptions, I essentially stopped buying Early Dollars. As for Seated Dollars, well, I buy the best value coins I can afford.

For moderns, I essentially stopped buying all of them. I remember when I very nice set of Ike's (w/ silvers and proofs) in Dansco cost me $100. They run close to $200 now. No thanks. Maybe I'm being cheap, but I prefer to get my SQ's from pocket change and from free giveaways rather than buying slabbed supergrades. I even get more fun this way because it requires patience to find the state/mint to fill that hole, while you can go to any show and just buy a slabbed SQ.

EVP

jom

EVP: That's pretty much what I do. I go to shows and see if I can find raw SQ's to put into my (and my son's) set. Slabs are a waste of $25 in that case...for me.

I also like to buy the grade just below the big jump. Whether it's AU58 to 60 or 64 to 65...depending on the series. With my $10 Indian set it's AU58 for the better dates and some sort of MS grade for the rest. It all comes down to what I want to pay for each coin in the set. Of course, if the coin is ugly (regarless of grade) I won't buy...obviously.

jom

DrawTwo

Hunt - I'm with you 100%! But I suppose that this is a measure of my budget as well. I mean, if I had gobs of money that I didn't have anything to do with, I'd be buying from Anaconda. But I don't, so I have buy the best I can while being careful not to go over that big jump that every coin seems to have somewhere in it's scale. And, as EVP mentions, series tend to run hot/cold and though it may be a little like trying to time the stock market, I like to focus on what seems to be cold at a given time.

nwcs

I buy the best I can afford, with an eye to what I'm trying to accomplish. Usually that means that if I find a MS-65 and MS-64 Morgan that are really nice, if the price difference is enough I'll get the 64 and use the other money to get something else. Two for the price of one. Your logic, Hunt, is good. I generally follow similar rules. Except when I get $#@%%$#^ by raw coins on ebay. So far, I'm batting about 0.100 on getting value from raw coins on ebay. Which is why I stopped doing it. The best value I got was a MS-62 St. Gaudens that graded MS-63 (and I thought was 63 - yay!). The worst was a mess of Morgans that allegedly were uncirculated but were all AU-55/58 with two bagged for cleaning. Learned my lesson. But still like morgans, even with my now admittedly less than wonderful registry of morgans... (nothing like a bunch of AUs to drag down the spirit)

Neil

prooflike

I'm a value buyer in that I can't see paying 67 prices for a 64 coin because it has pretty toning & I won;t pay 65 prices for a high-end 64. I would pay 65 prices for a solid 65 but not for a weak 65. Those are just examples, but you see what I am getting at. If a coin is a 65 but has 'ugly' toning, it still an ugly coin. I am pretty much a technical buyer but the coin must also have eye appeal.

dorkkarl

i like the comment on seated dollars, WAY undervalued. & your right too, early dollars are too hot right now and will come down sooner or later.

in 35 years, the coins that have held value the best for me are early proof sets (pre 1955), CHOICE early copper, and key date bust material, such as 1801 half dollars. what's nice about those is that condition is of secondary interest, ie. you don' have to have the "finest known" or even be close to have a coin that will rise in value. best of all, they happne to be series i LIKE.

these are just my opinions and not meant to suggest you ought to buy the early stuff. just that it has worked out the best for me. either way you look at it, the ultimate best payoff you will get is if you collect coins you LIKE, because the enjoyment cannot be assigned a price tag for measurement of profits.

K S

shirohniichan

I'm definitely a value buyer. I've seen some AU-58's that are nicer than MS-62's, so I'll buy the former when there's a big price jump between AU and MS. I think the gap between AU and MS will erode even further as collectors use their eyes more to judge overall appeal and less to distinguish the numbers on a slab.

DHeath

Shiro,

Do you feel market grade is more important than technical grade. I always try to collect that way, but does it make money sense? I know that common date commodity coins sometimes get no bid at all in medium grades, while better grade coins seem to always find a market. Do you believe that medium grade average date coins are a better investment? (All unslabbed)

shirohniichan

The whole market grade vs. technical grade confuses me. Why should an AU-58 with great eye-appeal suddenly be called "MS-62"? It still has the rub. It really doesn't matter in the end. I pay way over sheet for nice AU coins, so I guess it's the same as paying MS-62 prices when all is said and done. When I collect type coins I either go for better date coins in a lower grade or wonderful-for-the-grade examples of common dates. I can't afford the better date/ better grade combo and don't see the appeal of so-so date/ so-so grade coins.

I'll give you an example of a time I bypassed eye-appeal for another factor. I passed up some decent but not great garden variety AU trade dollars for a cleaned example of a rare variety. They both cost the same amount, but the latter appealed to me because it was so much harder to find (though ugly).

I don't think in terms of investment, though-- only in terms of what I like.

DHeath

It was a badly phrased question, but I think you answered it anyway. What I meant to ask was "Do you think a MS-62 coin that is ugly is a better investment than an AU58 coin with eye appeal", both coins being the same date and MM raw. Substitute value for investment since that's the way Hunt phrased it in his original question.

shirohniichan

AU-58 with eye-appeal any day.

1jester

I agree with Shiroh; a nice 58 is to me preferable to the ugly 62.

kranky

I agree with the grade-under-the-big-price-jump theory. It's clearly the most value for the money. This isn't a system for everyone, but it does maximize the amount of coins you can get in the nicest condition possible. I look at it as a good balance between quality and quantity.

Historically any MS coin was worth more than any non-MS coin. But perhaps such a view is obsolete. When you get down to it, it's not exactly logical to decide that a tiny bit of rub automatically outweighs a potentially large dropoff in eye appeal. I think that's why market grading is calling some of those AU coins MS62. Unfortunately, there's a saying that "you can never do just one thing", and the side effect of that is - what happens to the AU58 grade?

Dog97

I try to get the best "value" most times because at heart coin collectors are frugal tightwads but sometimes I just want an expensive, big jump in the next grade, really pristine eye popin coin that's better than everybody else's. But not too often.

Hunt

Thanks for all the posts--I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who sees it this way. I just bought an MS62 1907 $10 Indian at the show in NYC and it was the only one in the show I saw. There were dozens of 63's but for more than three times what I paid for my 62 (which I think could make 63). My 62 has a beautiful luster and if it wasn't for an obvious scratch on the reverse I think it could have went 64 or 65. It was recently graded by PCGS with their new holder (with bar code on front) and I've heard they tightened their grading recently so maybe it could be in a 63 holder...it sure looked better than many of 63's I saw and it was over a $1100 less.
I love the coin and will probably never sell it, but its nice to know that if I decided to sell it I may make a decent profit on the coin and at the very least not take a bath on it.

dorkkarl

eye appeal has never let me down yet.

michael

this is a great thread and we need more loike them and the responses were waht i thougfht to be well thought out!

for me a value hi end coin is something thayt when i look at it the coin jumps out at me and in my speciality field has exceptional qualities and based on the price has a reason to rise in value all based on my overall accessemtn based on 35 years of collecting experience

it is hard to make criteria but show me any coin and i can tell you if i think it is a value coin and why i think so

now i love monster toned coins but they have to be exceptional and rare for me to consider them and be a value to me based on many things including price ans what i think the demand will be and if the coin has room to grow or if i love the coin so much which is bad at the very least i can sell it for close to what i paid while enjoying it and learning from it!
but just like you say if a 65 is 400 and a 66 2000 then the value mayb e in a nice 65 or a monster 66 depending on the demand present and future as i see it as value is defined differenyl by many people

but is ee exactly what you mean in other words to sum it up you look at a coin different ways eye appeal price holder pop waht the next grade sells for etc and if you feel it is within your budget and you like it and it does something for you and it has what you think in your opinion a reason to rise in value you buy it!

but overall for me the biggest factor is exceptional qualities/eye appeal if any coin has this then it is for me!!!!!!!

sincerely michael

supercoin

I generally collect "value" coins by your definition as well. It makes sense for me because I don't view coins as an investment, and I don't have a large coin budget, so I want the most bang for my buck for personal enjoyment.

But from an "investment" (generally bad idea in my opinion) standpoint, just as with stocks sometimes "value" coins don't perform as well as the "growth" coins. If I had held onto all the highest-grade Ikes I've graded over the years, I'd be riding high. On the other hand, again as with stocks, value coins don't fall as far either.

The other good thing about "value" collecting is that it leaves more money left over for the ocassional wowigottahavethat where you throw any question of good value out the window.

EVillageProwler

wowigottahavethat

Mmmmmm... I have to say that there is one of those for me coming up soon. It is very rare, and I already own a very nice lower grade specimen. But, this piece is a wowigottahavethat specimen and I'm not sure if I want to break discipline for it.

Life can be such a trial at times!

EVP

lathmach

Put this question on the Registry Forum and see what the answers are.

Ray

supercoin

Easy, a registry value coin is the one that has the best dollars/points ratio.

jtryka

Hunter,

I am totally in agreement with you, but I would add another dimention in terms of date. The $10 Indian example is a nice one, since most of mine are 62s, and I couldn't justify the additional cost for what often represents a very limited improvement in quality. So I will generally go for the 62 with nice eye appeal. On Saints, I take a different approach. Since a 63 has so much more eye appeal in general than a 62. Most 62s have a weaker strike so Liberty's face looks like she was a victim of a gangland style shooting, but the vast majority of 63s are struck with liberty's face in good detail. With that difference in appearance, and only $100 or so difference in price it makes sense to go for the higher grade. On Saints and Indian eagles both, I employ a date value method as well. I have the common saints from the 20s, because I bought them when I was still new in the series. Now, I encourage anyone buying a Saint to avoid the common dates of the 1920s in favor of spending a few bucks more for a nice 1915-S, or a 1914-D, or 1910-D. They aren't that much more money, but are much better dates. Same with the Indians, why buy a 1926 or 32 when you can get a nice 1910-D, or 1911, 1912 or 1913 for only a little more? That's my slant on gold anyway, and a lot of it holds true for libs as well.

clackamas

Nice AU58 Liberty $20 gold. A nice coin that you can only tell the difference between a 65 with a 10X loupe just above the eye. I still wonder why AU58's trade below MS62-60. Certainly you can have an AU58 save a slight rub and it would be a 62 but there are many that are a rub away from being true gems. Very good value with the right coin IMO.

Hunt

Jtryka,

I totally agree with your points on the Saints and Indians and I will always spring for the extra few bucks for the higher grade if the coin warrants it--and the jump from 62 to 63 usually isn't huge for most of the Saints and Indians. I'm talking about coins that jump 3 to 4 times in one grading point. I don't mind paying a healthy % more for a nicer coin in a higher grade, but such huge jumps I just can't justify. Then again, almost all the coins I collect are bigger $$$ and a 3 to 4 times jump is hundreds and even thousands of dollars. I suppose if I collected more modern/common dates 3 to 4 times wouldn't hurt as much--but the logic remains the same, is the coin just a little better worth sooooo much more??

Not to me unless you're trying to collect for the registry or essemble the best set possible. I will probably never be able to this with the series I collect so maybe that's why I buy the way I do.

-Hunter

1jester

Kranky, interesting point about what happens to the AU58 grade. Maybe there will be a new grade--AU58/65 or AU58/62, depending on the grade the coin would have received had it not been "rubbed the wrong way". That sounds logical to me, and it would allow the market to price-adjust the AU58s according to what they would have been without a rub. How's that for a suggestion?

CharlieB

I'm with Michael. I like value-hi-end coins that jump
out at me and have the best of eye appeal. I like key coins.
In general, I would rather have 2 MS64's than 1 MS65.
and too I would rather have 1 MS64 than 2 MS63's.

I still believe MS64 is often the most optimal grade for
the money on high end coins.

- Charlie B -

jtryka

Here's a great example of the whole value/high end debate, as well as the AU-58/MS-62 debate. It's a 1916-S Saint, old PCGS holder graded AU-58. I would guess that today it would be MS-62, and I just sold it on eBay and it brought $430, so pretty strong for AU, but less than MS-62 money.

kranky

<< <i>Kranky, interesting point about what happens to the AU58 grade. Maybe there will be a new grade--AU58/65 or AU58/62, depending on the grade the coin would have received had it not been "rubbed the wrong way". That sounds logical to me, and it would allow the market to price-adjust the AU58s according to what they would have been without a rub. How's that for a suggestion?

>>



They'll never do that because it makes it too complicated for the price sheets. Another thought would be just to use something like "AU62" - has rub, but market grading dictates a grade of 62. But that would cause the same problem - you'd need too many more columns in the sheets. If only, if only, they would have never started market grading.

1jester

Kranky, good idea with the AU62. Perhaps if the dealers could learn to read......

cointagious

value collector here.
hunt is 100% on target with his theory, imho. i believe many if not most collectors think the same way. this may x-plain that even in this coin bull market, that coins in the $5k+ range lanquish in dealer cases looking for new homes.