example of an expensive pcgs overgrade

dorkkarl

<< <i>http://www.heritagecoin.com/common/auctions/viewlot.asp?s=22081&l=11295 >>

ok, let me qualify this topice up front by saying that the statements below represent my opinion. i don't claim my statements to be indisputable facts.

i believe this is an 1806 quarter grading F-15 and worth $350 - $400. PCGS called in VF, and the high bid is already $660 w/juice. WHY do i think it is not VF? (1) the bust lines is not complete (2) rev motto is not complete (3) rev. shield lines are not complete (4) the coin appears cleaned (5) i have a wee bit of experience with these.

i'll grant that these opinions are sight-unseen (based on a digital image), but somehow, i'm just convinced that the high bidders are buying the certified grade,not the coin. i'd welcome any opposing comments.

K S

dorkkarl

just to make it fair, here is an ngc overgrade from the same auction: http://www.heritagecoin.com/common/auctions/viewlot.asp?s=22081&l=11296

this one is a laugher at EF-45

so, what if it is just a weak strike and not wear? it STILL should be netted down to VF-30 or so. the high bid is nearing triple retail on this puppy.

K S

dorkkarl

ok, 3d times a charm, here are actual LINKS to the auctions!
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cointagious

i would have to agree that both grades look like gifts. but, hey, it's not like you can't see the coin for themselves. if people have that much excess cash to blow - good for them.

imho, prices are going to get the big push from the auction houses for at least the near future. i predicate this on the fact that i was hi bidder when the hammer fell on two auction lots last week and now the auction house has them back up for sale. they apparently out bid me after the auction!

pmh1nic

Guilty as charged.

LanLord

I wonder if the grading companies grade generaously on these things due to their age, I am not saying that this would be acceptable but possible. It is also probably that they are not using only one field mark to make their grade. Perhaps they see more detail in one or more areas of the hair or something like that (just a question more than a statement of fact).

Another question that did come to mind when I saw this one, and I compared it to a 1807 in vf20, the nose looks funny (sort of like commander Data from Star Trek TNG) I know this thing is certified, but the nose should have a more graceful look to it rather than the "ski jump" that I see.

tjkillian

I think that their is a severe shortage of acceptable bust coinage, especially half dimes, dimes, and quarters. In the more affordable grades, folks are so desparate (I know, I'm one of them), that any coin that is even close, gets slabbed and then the wolves come out of the woodwork chomping at the bit to get them. Everytime I've seen any of these coins come up for sale, everyone goes wild.

Right now I'm trying to get a 1798 bust dime on Ebay from a forum member and I'm not sure I will get it. Original, affordable pieces are scarce.

Tom

RLinn

I agree that they seem to be graded generously. This brings a couple of thoughts to mind.

1. You still have to learn to grade and be your own judge of the coin your buying, otherwise you'll buy the holder and not the coin.

2. If affordable bust coinage is a problem, then let the market drive the price on reasonably graded coins not numbers on slabs.

pmh1nic

LanLord

They do take into account weak strike that would be a result of the poor quality of the coinage equipment used at the time. There's some pretty good detail still left on the eagles wings on the reverse of the NGC coin and the lack of detail on the rest of the obverse and reverse may be a combination of wear and weak strike. But even taking that into account the coin IMHO doesn't merit a EF-45 grade.

Dog97

pmh1nic even though we're both tech guys I can't see VF either even when I throw Market Grading consideration for being hand struck. But we know how Heritage's pictures are always crappy so they may be better struck than shown.

dorkkarl

good points, gentlemen, it is entirely possible that the coins look better in person, but based on my past experiences w/ heritage, i doubt they are suffiiciently "better" to warrant the assigned grades/



<< <i>I wonder if the grading companies grade generaously on these things due to their age, I am not saying that this would be acceptable but possible >>


i think it IS acceptable - to a certain degree, and generally only if the variety is known. ie. certain varieties are simply not known with full details due to poor striking from a specific pair of dies. but i agree that even taking that into consideration, this is a pair of horribly overgraded and therefore overpriced coins.

and to throw a little salt into the wound, have you ever reviewed heritage's "return policy"? ludicrous.

K S

goldnuggets

When it comes to early bust coinage you can't always use actual detail/amount of visible wear to accurately grade many pieces (especially when looking at a scan). With the shortage of high grade metal for making dies, over use of dies and the fact they are struck on hand presses without the ability to have consistent even pressure there are many coins which are just plain flatly struck. So when a piece is flatly struck (which means the normal high points never existed) the slightest bit of rub can appear to be heavy wear because so much luster is taken off the current high points, add to that the lack of strong detail to start with and it gives the appearance of a worn lower grade coin. Below is an example, looking at the amount of wear it has and how worn flat the hair is over Liberty's ear and behind her ear the hair curl on her lower neck is smooth with little detail (above the drapery clasp), the large wear spot on the cheek and bust area the piece has detail consistent with an XF coin. Seeing the coin in person gives you a totally different perspective since this piece has 75%-80% of its original cartwheel luster visible (full field luster behind Liberty's head and majority of field luster in front of her face) but since it is a late die state (stars drawn to edge,little milling, chip in lower loop of eight) it was a flatly struck coin that even when freshly of the press probably never had the full detail you would expect to see on an AU coin, which is what this piece grades. So when it comes to early bust coinage you really have to see it in person to truly be able to accurately grade many pieces which never started out with a full detailed strike.

RLinn

<FONT face=Verdana size=1>goldnuggets, thanks for the nice tutorial on the 1812 half.</FONT>

dorkkarl

hey goldnuggets, no disagreement here. in fact, i tried to allude to that in my post. heritage would do everyone a great favor by mentioning such striking deficiencies in their auctions, though. the coins i linked to do appear weakly struck but are not typical of the varieties (i believe), therefore should be netted down IMO. also, if they were graded per die-variety, the holder ought to state the attribution.

K S

goldnuggets

It would be nice if they would better describe the characteristics better in the auctions but that probably won't happen since it would take them so much more time when putting together their catalogs. I think everybody would be doing themselves a big favor if they tried to learn as much as they could about the minting process of the coins they collect, learning how the coin was struck will not only give you a better idea of what to expect for the different dates and/or varieties but it will also help in understanding how the pieces are graded. One thing I have noticed about some of the new generation of collectors is that they rely to much on the slab and not enough on their own knowledge, with the internet making it so much easier to gather information and locate reference guides (as well as converse with others with same interests via message boards) today's collectors have a big advantage that I hope more will take advantage of.