Does it take talent and skills to grade?

braddick

I see on many posts the advice, "learn how to grade". Is grading simply a function that can be learned by anyone and everyone? Or, is grading more than just 'painting by the numbers' and also takes a talent or skill not everyone has.
For example, I suppose I could learn to play the piano, but does that then equate to me being good at it?

BNE

Often, "learning how to grade" is not enough for our purposes -- if, for example, we want to avoid being disappointed by failed cross-overs, regrades, etc. Instead, we must "learn how to grade like PCGS." (God help us!)

That means getting a feel for PCGS' proclivities. Knowing that hazy fields can result in a loss of a point, even when there isn't a nick on the coin, recognizing the real possibility that if a coin arrives in another slab it will be looked at -- ahem -- harder, etc.

This is something that I try to work on every night I have free to look at my coins. I examine them closely and try to get into the heads of the graders.

One thing that has helped me a great deal on this is -- please don't laugh -- regularly using a 5x loupe, which I never used to do before. Relying on an assumption (probably incorrect) that the graders used the naked eye, I figured that my naked eye was the best approximation for what they would see. Since I've started using a loupe, I can understand why coins that are so appealing to me might not withstand PCGS' scrutiny to earn the next higher grade. Oddly, sometimes big gashes that look bad with the naked eye appear to not detract quite as much on magnification, when you can better see that other aspects of the coin (strike, luster, otherwise clean and unhazy fields) "make up" for the ugly nick.

Tundertron

I believe anyone can grade coins. It may take longer for some to catch on, but once the basic skills (telling from mint state to slider) there would be no stopping from grading any series.

kranky

Interesting question!

I think anyone can learn to grade, given the right instruction and practice and desire. With not a whole lot of effort, people can learn to grade circulated coins in any series and get the Uncs into 60-63-65-67 categories. Splitting the Uncs into single point grades will take more study and practice.

It was mentioned in the ANA Grading class that if someone agrees with the instructor team grade 70% of the time they have potential as a professional grader. We saw plenty of times where the two instructors - both of whom are full-time graders for a big service - disagreed by a point. If we can agree that a one-point difference of opinion doesn't disqualify someone as a skilled grader, then I say anyone can learn if they are sufficiently motivated and get expert instruction.

Dog97

Get a ANA grading guide and it's 'painting by the numbers' for circs. MS takes a little more experience, mainly seeing enough properly graded examples since the difference between MS grades isn't wrote in stone like the circ grades are.

Gilbert

Baseball,

Most of us are not as fortunate as you are (having the luxury of looking at a couple hundred Morgans, FOR LEARNING PURPOSES, at a show). I have yet to see a collector not get the "evil eye" for looking a more than a few without making a purchase, and still most seem to take offense at someone taking up so much time at their table. In all honesty, if I were a dealer, I wouldn't be amenable to an extemporaneous study session during what is supposed to be my selling time.

Now if you are fortunate enough to have a mentor, or the like, who is has a few hundred of the same series, in the same grade, slabbed by the same service, who is willing to allow this, that is a different story.

MICHAELDIXON

I am one who lauds "learn how to grade." This isn't to bash anybody, but without knowing the basics of grading, you can lose your behind! Having owned 2 shops, doing many shows and going to people's houses to buy collections, I've seen firsthand what not knowing how to grade can cost. One man, who offered me his collection of Morgan dollars, thought he knew how to grade. He had confidence in the mail order dealer he purchased 75% of his coins from and was ripped badly. There is a big difference in value from an AU 50 Whizzed 1889 CC dollar and an MS63 (over $10k)! This case, I was perceived as the bad guy since he thought I was trying to get his coins for nothing!
.
My advice is always: "Learn how to grade!" Not all grading services will grade the coin the same and one grading service will not grade the same coin MSXX everytime. I have been trying to grade coins since I started collecting in 1964. The first grading book I ever owned was by Ruddy and my coin library now has 5 different books on grading. Am I always correct? No! But, I keep grading to the best of my ability. I've posted this before and oldtimers are probably tired of hearing it. One of the few and most undeserved Negatives I ever got on Ebay was for describing a PCGS certified MS65 Mercury dime as Gem Brilliant. The guy negged me with: 'Coin was baggy and spotted.' Very seldom are two people going to agree on a grade. Third party grading was heralded as taking the argument out of the grading controversy, but it didn't.
.
And...I always stress to view as many coins as you can. The more you view the better acquainted you will become with the different grades.


Please Read: A Word on Grading.

braddick

Michael- Great assessment. Nothing to add other than you (and others here) are dead on.

DHeath

Can PCGS disqualify my answer based on past submission results?

Conder101

<< <i>It was mentioned in the ANA Grading class that if someone agrees with the instructor team grade 70% of the time they have potential as a professional grader. We saw plenty of times where the two instructors - both of whom are full-time graders for a big service - disagreed by a point. >>



So if 70% of the time you can grade a coin to within a 3 point window you have the potential to be a professional prader? Small wonder I don't like slabbing services.

coinrookie

Slightly off topic, What would be the best book on grading for a newbie?

braddick

I promise I'm not being a wise guy- but reading prior threads RIGHT HERE regarding grading will get you far ahead of the game. Seriously! Give it a shot (cost is cheap enough).

dorkkarl

<< <i>BNE is correct. I see many posts lauding "learn how to grade". By whose standards? >>


for God's sake, learn how to grade by YOUR OWN standards!!! you'll NEVER live to anyone else;s.



<< <i>I bet all of the people that constantly belabor the words "learn how to grade" on these boards all have differnent "standards" of grading. >>


BINGO that's what makes the hobby FUN. if we were all zombies programmed to obey the commands of the plastic gods, HOW FUN would this be???



<< <i>This is why in the end the only method that works is to use the Bower's method of "I like it" backed by the reputation of a PCGS, for example. >>


hmmmmm, then i wonder how the he11 garrett, eliasberg, etc. etc. did it w/out the blessings of so9meone like, oh, i don't know, pcgs??? and oddly enough, no collector today even seems remotely on par with the great ones even WITH the backing of the vast pcgs reputation . .....



<< <i>The best way to learn how to grade in my opinion is to look at a lot of PCGS slabs. >>


can't argue with that, hearing other OPINIONS is always valuable



<< <i>If you were to review a couple hundred, or even 100 common date Morgans in MS65 (which could be done in a couple of hours at a show BTW, you quickly can formulate what a high grade attractive example looks like as well as the dogs of the grade. As you expand to other grades, you can even begin formulating what coins are overgraded and undergraded within a given grade >>


good lord, man, are you daft??? if any mortal human reviewed 100 common date morgans in ms65 (blast white, no doubt) insanity coupled with mental paralysis and temporary blindness would surely be his just reward!!!

(to the morgan collectors out there - just kidding, noithing wrong with the series at all, though i happen not to care for em all tha tmuch)

K S

kranky

<< <i>hmmmmm, then i wonder how the he11 garrett, eliasberg, etc. etc. did it w/out the blessings of so9meone like, oh, i don't know, pcgs??? and oddly enough, no collector today even seems remotely on par with the great ones even WITH the backing of the vast pcgs reputation >>



To be fair, Garrett, Eliasberg, Norweb, etc. had a big advantage. They not only had deep pockets, they accumulated their collections in a time when the finest-known coin didn't sell for 50x the price of the next grade down. If a nice Unc was $100, the finest piece out there might have been $200. Today, even allowing for inflation, that price gap would be enormous.

gemseeker

That's the answer! Invent a time machine and hoard all of the coins from the past as soon as it is minted. Then I will have every rare coin and series and sell to steep premiums today.

pmh1nic

Condor

Kranky can speak for himself but I don't think he meant that if someone misses 30% of the time by 3 points he has the potential for being a professional grader. At least that's not the way I interpreted his statement.


Baseball

"The best way to learn how to grade in my opinion is to look at a lot of PCGS slabs. "

Are you on the PCGS payroll . PCGS is not the alpha and omega of grading. The ANA grading standards were established in 1977 as a NON-PARTISAN guide for grading coins. They are the recommended "standard reference in transactions between all buyer and sellers." My suggestion would be to study the ANA guide, get a feel for the ANA standards and then look at as many coins as you can to see how each grading service lines up with those standards. If you're fortunate enough to have the time to take the ANA 3 day grading course go for it. You gain in a concentrated format experience that would take probably years of visits to coins shows (given the limitations Gilbert mentioned facing collectors at shows) to acquire.

rkfish

I like baseball's idea of looking at as many slab's as possible in the series you collect.

The best education I have had since returning to collecting are the Heritage auctions....where else can I sit for as much as 4 hours (without pissing ANYONE off) sometime looking at 300-500 Morgan and Peace dollars? I learn more at each show I attend just by looking at these lots. A wonderful education! I know this is not possible for everyone but if you are able to attend a major show this is an education that no one should pass up......for free!

berylcoin

I believe he was refering to viewing the actual lots at big-show auctions. I wish I could make it to one. Until then I'll settle for the scans, too.

BC

Bear

I firmly believe, that the graders for the major grading firms are very skilled, talentedand consistant. However, they are subject, to what I believe , are changing standards due to bussiness concerns by top managementof their respective companies. Perhaps someday, we will see these good people allowed to do the job as well as they are capable of doing. At that point , we will have an absolutely wonderful situation to soothe our wrinkled and worried brows. Bear

stman

Bear, You said it very well as usual!!!

stman

dorkkarl

<< <i>Times change. One could argue how one got by before indoor plumbing and sliced bread. >>


that logic is bogus.
"before indoor plumbing, one couldn't . . . . use indoor plumbing."
THERFORE
"before pcgs graded coins, one couldn't . . . . grade coins"
HOW does that make sense???



<< <i>To compare modern day numismatics with the era of Eliasberg and Garrett is absurd. Just about everything but collectors' passion is different. >>


once again, friend, please name SOME of the EVERYTHING that has changed!!! indoor plumbing? sliced bread? the space shuttle? what SPECIFIC changes have now made it impossible for your opinion, more opinion, or john doe's opinion, or a monkey's opinion on collecting coins absurd? have the rules of democracy changed such that things gotta be certified before theyr worth anything? please enlighten us!!!

and btw, i'm not saying that you're wrong about a single thing you say, i'm just trying to point out that you spew out "FACTs" without proof or reasoning that i can follow, that's all

K S

matteproof

Hi braddick! Grading is a skill, mixed with some art. A musician can learn how to play his instrument, read music and hit all of the right notes (a technician). But it's the musicians who "feel" the music, that become the GREATEST players of all. It's a similar thing with grading. You can learn the techniques, but that does not mean that you will be a good grader.

matteproof

BigD5

I think grading has more to do with experience than anything else. You can run around with your ANA guide, and be able to break down different circulated grades, but, like almost anything else, experience will make you "smoother" at it. In order to pick out cleaned coins, whizzed coins etc. you really have to "experience" them (hopefully not purchase) them in order to recognize them. Books can only carry things so far. I find a lot of similarities with golf. The driving range is a great place to practice all aspects of your game, chipping, putting, driving, pitching etc., but you have to PLAY the game in order to become good at it.

*PMH, where did you find this quote: "standard reference in transactions between all buyer and sellers.", in reference to the ANA guide? I'm curious

dorkkarl

<< <i>I like baseball's idea of looking at as many slab's as possible in the series you collect. The best education I have had since returning to collecting are the Heritage auctions....where else can I sit for as much as 4 hours (without pissing ANYONE off) sometime looking at 300-500 Morgan and Peace dollars? >>




<< <i>Good idea about Heritage. Big blowups of thousands of coins on any given day. Though I think their scans often times tend to skew the actual look of the coin, there is still PLENTY of education to be had by viewing them. >>



i agree that in terms of mechanical condition, what you say is true. just a tiny caveat here that viewing digital images (especiall heritage's which are subpar in my opinion) is a poor replacement for discerning the difference between ms63 and up where luster and eye-appeal plays a significant role. one other thing, again based on a he11uva lot of experience, buying a coin sight-unseen (physically seen, not through digital images) is a risk regardless of who graded the coin. far and away my worst purhcases of all time were caused by a bad decision on my part based on how "nice" a (certified) coin looked in a scan.

K S

RLinn

I find it very difficult to be proficient in grading more than a couple of my favorite coin series. Quite frankly, I don't know how you dealers master a broad range of series. That said, I think this forum is a great place to learn more about "the feel " of grading, especially when the topic isn't "How to Learn to Grade." Just look at almost any post on this forum dealing with a "What do you think of this coin?" heading. I know all the grading is from scans, but the opinions are still based on what you see. Even if the scan is inaccuartate, your describe the grade in light of what is seen. You guys all have different takes on the same coin and frequently come to very congruent conclusions. Many of you detail why you assign a particular grade. I find these insights helpful as I may now be able to look at a particular series using a few slightly different grading clues. Thanks for the education.

rkfish

<< I like baseball's idea of looking at as many slab's as possible in the series you collect. The best education I have had since returning to collecting are the Heritage auctions....where else can I sit for as much as 4 hours (without pissing ANYONE off) sometime looking at 300-500 Morgan and Peace dollars? >>

I definately meant "to see in person"....not the scans on their site. Scans, as usual, provide some assistance in determining grade and condition but always have some risk involved.

clw54

One thing that would be helpful to the less experienced collectors, such as myself, would be for people to expain why they think a coin deserves a certain grade. Many posts are "I think it's an AU-58" or "It looks like an MS-63" or "It's been cleaned." How did the poster come to this conclusion? It would only take an extra sentence or two to elaborate.

Conder101

I didn't say miss by three points, I said hit a three point window. There is a difference. Since Kranky indicated that even the professionals are often a point apart in their opinions I take that to mean that being one point different in my opinion would count as being in agreement. So if 70 percent of the time my opinion is within one point of the professionals opinion, up or down, then we are in agreement and I have the potential to be a professional grader. (three point window, one below, right on, or one above. To be able to miss by three points would be a seven point window or almost the entire MS range.) When one point can change the cost of a coin ten fold or more, is hitting that kind of accuracy 70% of the time good enough?

kranky

No question that the pros can disagree by a point. But we should also acknowledge that in many instances they are all in agreement. The "three-point window" is kind of an exaggeration because when they disagree, it's going to be by a point (IMHO) - like a 63/64. I don't think you'd have different pros saying 63, 64 AND 65, which a "three-point window" implies. It would be some saying 63, others 64. Of course, this disregards the special case of AU58/MS63 which is sometimes a closer call than 63/64.

Regardless, the evidence that the pros disagree is demonstrated every time a crackout comes back a different grade. That's what I find interesting - we send coins in for the pros to grade, and value the coins accordingly. Then we sometimes crack them out and send them back hoping for a different grade, which sometimes happens. And we pretend those two things aren't contradictory!

To Conder's point, the 70% target would refer to the amount of time a person would agree with the consensus grade of the 3 graders. It's the consensus system that helps give stability to the grades. Really, if a person can grade "just like PCGS" by himself a very high percentage of the time, that's probably better than the individual pro graders do! Conder, you are right - if a single point is worth 10x the price, we are putting a value on the grading opinion much higher than is warranted.

stujoe

<< <i> Regardless, the evidence that the pros disagree is demonstrated every time a crackout comes back a different grade. That's what I find interesting - we send coins in for the pros to grade, and value the coins accordingly. Then we sometimes crack them out and send them back hoping for a different grade, which sometimes happens. And we pretend those two things aren't contradictory! >>



Is it really contradictory, though? Coins are not being resubmitted to see if their condition-grade has changed but rather to see if their value-grade can be changed. In other words, you value the opinions of the pros but realize that it can change because 1. it is an opinion and 2. it is based upon more than just the condition-grade of the coin.

griffin6

The original analogy questioning the comparison of grading to playing a piano is actually very apropos. In both cases, there is a wide variation between the skill levels of individuals. For the piano, it's chopsticks to Chopin... for coin grading, it's "I think this might be uncirculated" to "This coin will grade MS-64 seven times out of ten and MS-65 the other three."

The important thing for grading is to understand and acknowledge where your skill level is. Grading is about money, and the two most damaging traits are ego and greed. If you insist on stretching the envelope of your skill level in the marketplace, you will probably pay a hefty price for the experience. Some people accept this is a cost of learning; others become irate that after jumping into deep water (without knowing how to swim) that they had to be pulled gasping and sputtering back to dry land.

A few maxims for beginners (or whomever...):

RULE ONE. When in doubt, PASS. There are far fewer bargains missed than bad deals acquired.

Protect your downside. If an MS-64 is $100 and an MS-65 is $2,000, do you HAVE to have the 65? A nice MS-64 is much cheaper and may become a 65 someday. The 65 may be a 64 RIGHT NOW, and the visual differences between the two are not great. If you must have the better coin, always buy certifed from a company which has a dealer network offering SIGHT UNSEEN bids (currently just PCGS and NGC). In that way, your downside is at least limited to the SIGHT UNSEEN number.

"Mail Order" presents many additional potential pitfalls. Do not buy by mail order or online from vendors without a written return privilege and a reputation to back it up. On eBay, read the feedback to get a picture of a vendor's attitude towards customer service. A few negatives may be acceptable and indicate some unreasonable customers, but at some point, it may indicate an inability or unwillingness on the seller's part to prioritize customer service in the marginal situations. The less confident you are in your own abilities, the more stringent you should be in selecting vendors.

Scans don't always tell the whole story. A good scan may make circulated grading on the Internet reliable in most cases, but at best, it rarely helps with mint state and proof coins. It is definitely not suitable for PQ coins, nor will it necessarily project the color of a toned coin accurately. You should always consider the return privilege for these areas and, if anything appears questionable, refer back to rule one!

kranky

<< <i>Is it really contradictory, though? Coins are not being resubmitted to see if their condition-grade has changed but rather to see if their value-grade can be changed. In other words, you value the opinions of the pros but realize that it can change because 1. it is an opinion and 2. it is based upon more than just the condition-grade of the coin. >>



I think there is a contradiction. We send coins in for slabbing and they come back with a grade. That determines the value (for the most part) for most potential buyers. I freely admit there are exceptions where some really great coins can go at auction for a price worthy of the next grade up, but that's not the norm. The vast majority of people look at the grade and that's how they decide what the coin is worth plus or minus.

Now if someone cracks it out and gets an upgrade, the value immediately rises. So on one hand, people slab coins because they want that written opinion of grade/value. When a coin upgrades, the prior opinion becomes void (hey, wasn't it considered an expert opinion up until the crackout?) but somehow the new opinion is worthy.

I'm not slamming anything, I just find a contradiction there. People base value on the grade, but the grade can change. The coin didn't.

gemseeker

Sounds more like you need cunning and manipulation rather than talent and skills to grade.

pmh1nic

Condor

I stand corrected as far as your statement is concerned although I'm not sure if what was described is a three point window. My experience in the grading seminar was that the professional graders agreed or were within one point of one another, a two point window. One would call the coin a 64 and the others a 65. I don't believe there was ever a situation where one call a coin a 64, another call it a 65 and the other call it a 63. The marginal coins were marginal on the high side or low side.

Clankeye

"......far and away my worst purhcases of all time were caused by a bad decision on my part based on how "nice" a (certified) coin looked in a scan....."

DorkKarl-- this leans toward your other thread about fraud, slabs and the future of the coin business.... but far and away one of my worst purchases was by taking as a given the glowing, adjective filled written description of a certain commem set by a very visible dealer. In my stupidity, I even agreed to a no return clause, to get a few bucks knocked off the price. When I got the coins I was stunned. One, that PCGS had graded them what they did, two, that anyone could have written such a work of fiction as the description of them, and three, that I was stuck with them. I immediately offered them back to the seller at a good loss to me, and they still wouldn't by them back.
Even a poor scan would have saved me from that fiasco. In these times I would have at least had an avenue to describe them correctly and offer them on eBay. Might have still taken a loss, but not as much as I did.

pmh1nic

Condor

Actually the more I think about it it really is a one point spread. The disputes were high end 64, low end 65 or more precisely 64.6 to 65.4. So if you're in a 3 point window you're not a candidate to be a professional grader .

dorkkarl

<< <i>one of my worst purchases was by taking as a given the glowing, adjective filled written description of a certain commem set by a very visible dealer .. I even agreed to a no return clause .. I was stunned. One, that PCGS had graded them what they did, two, that anyone could have written such a work of fiction as the description of them .. Even a poor scan would have saved me from that fiasco etc >>

hey clankeye, i may be missing somerhing. did pcgs grade em? PLEASE tell me it wasn't swiatek!!! at any rate, the bottom line for my other spiel really has nothing to do with plastic. it is that you should always by coins SIGHT-SEEN. raw or slabed don't matter one bit in my book. granted it doesn't matter when your main concern is $, in which case be a plastic cutthroat. i'm just saying that my greatest satisfaction has been in being selective to MY standards, and if i screw up, i ain't got no one to blame by myself.

K S