Need a High Relief Saint Expert

Blade

This one has stumped me for a while. What is the verdict on a Proof High Relief? Heritage has offered several of these for sale in the past and has one in the current Internet auction:

In a previous Heritage catalog, they claimed that the Proof HRs have subtle distinguishing characteristics and were likely hit with the press a few more times. They also stated that some of the minor details are sharper. However, all of the Proof HRs that I have seen are in NGC slabs. When I checked PCGS's Pop Reports, they don't even list a HR in Proof. Does that mean they do not recognize these coins as Proof? The proofs do carry a price premium of approx. 50%. The last (4) MS64 HRs in the Heritage archives went for $14,375-$18,400. The last (3) PR64s in the archives sold for $22,435-$25,300.

So what is the verdict? Are these just exceptionally well struck Mint State coins or Proofs? What if you tried to cross one to PCGS? The Red Book says that matte/roman finish proofs were first struck in 1908. So... what are these?

Edited to remove link

Dabigkahuna

That photo on the auction page should be a little better for a coin like that you would think.

The Red Book says "all HR proof are experimental or trial pieces."

The two folds on her skirt to the right of her right leg seems to match the discription of the "experimental" or "trial" peices but I can't tell if there are 13 or 14 rays on the reverse? The regular HR have 13. At least from from what I read?

Larry
Dabigkahuna

kryptonitecomics

There are 13 rays on the coin in the link so..........I can't tell them apart????

Dabigkahuna

By the way, Im no expert!!!

Blade

Thanks folks. Any idea on PCGS's position?

jtryka

This appears to be a regular HR, 13 rays. I am not sure of the regular HR proofs, how many if any were produced. The EX-HR coins were all proofs, but it is hard to tell with Matte Proofs from a photo. I am concerned about all the hairlines on this piece, as well as Liberty's rather Klingon-esque nose. There are better pieces out there. The red book is a little unclear on this, stating the 11,250 HRs were struck for general circulation, but then says that "a few of the proof coins were made using the lettered edge collar from the extremely high relief version." The indicator for this is the pronounced bottom left serif on the N un UNUM. Of course there's no way to check that on a coin in a slab. Sorry I couldn't be of more help!

Blade

Larry,
You are right - that pic should be better for a $20K coin. Here is one slightly nicer with a better pic

Edited to remove link

supercoin

I believe PCGS doesn't recognize them, their position being that they are just better-struck than normal business strikes, without a definite distinguishing characteristics, i.e. no good place to "draw the line" to determine which are proofs and which are not.

At least I think that's right, I recall reading it somewhere. Unless it was about some other proof gold. I tend not to retain information that will have no practical application in my own collecting anytime soon.