BUY THE SLAB Old PCGS Bust 50C scores $1500 in MS62

jamesfsm

Here's an old slab PCGS white MS62 BUst 50C at $1500 on eBay with obvious limiting marks on the face of Liberty. What gives?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1370260435&rd=1

jtryka

link

That is a very pretty coin, but seems overpriced. I am not a bust half expert, but it seems like they are bidding like it's going to upgade 2 points on a resubmit. On a coin like that though, my guess is that it would get bodybagged for cleaning today.

1907Quarter

what in theory gets body-bagged and by whom?

Placid

Look's ok to me. I don't know how you could tell cleaning on that one by the picture they give.
If you sent it in for regrade and they body bag it do you get compensation from pcgs?

Numismedia say's $800 in ms-62. That is the most I would pay without being able to examine it in person. Usually I base what I bid -1 grade on eBay coins.

jtryka

PCGS would body bag it as it seems they have adopted a stance that any brilliant white coin from that era would not likely survive in that state without toning, so it must be cleaned. I could be wrong, but that's been my experience. Also, if they body bag it, you are out of luck on the fees. Remember that thread a few weeks ago on the toned commem half that was in an old ANACS holder, and no one would slab it today since they all now thought it was AT? The same thing happens with older white coins. Just my opinion though.

PS-the body bag would only happen if you cracked it out of the holder and resubmitted. If you sent it in with the holder, you would probably just get it back in a new holder as MS-62.

BigD5

I would say eager speculation. My grading speculation from the bad (tiny?) scan would be well struck with some fly (horsefly?) specking/spotting and guessing on a grade is virtually impossible!! For pcgs to have initially graded the coin ms/62, I would THINK that there is some hairlining or clatter in the fields that aren't visible in the scan, as the strike looks decent enough to warrant a higher grade. The "spotting" would keep the grade down, so I'll guess ms/63 (max) on a resubmission, potential hairlines not accounted for.

dorkkarl

unquestionably dipped or it would be originally toned. shilled maybe? i can't beliee anybody would be stupid enough to pay that much even if it were ms-63.

tsacch

she looks dipped and I agree, send it to them for regrade in the holder................I would try a walk through at a show or something..............price is way high. OR..........send it to NGC for a try in that holder as well.

hughesm1

Tough to call with those thumbnails (I mean small scans.) Would like to see in person. It very well may grade 63, possibly 64, but it's too risky at current levels without personal examination. Nice half in any case.

Strat

Oh, I think this coin is worth a stretch bid. Let's remember that Overton lists 23 die marriages for this date, and although you can't attribute a coin from the pics, guess what? An MS62 qualifies for the condition census on nearly every listing in Overton for 1830. Plus if it's a large letter variety (O114), well, that lists for 9K in the Redbook for AU50. That's doubtful, since Overton records the condition census as grading only as high as MS60 for that variety. Plus, the coin has plenty of luster on both sides, including a bit of gold on the reverse shield and creamy white surfaces on the reverse (dipped??? if dipped it would be chrome silver, not creamy white.) The obverse is a bit streaky, one pic being better than the other, but given the fact it's unattributed by PCGS, would rank in the condition census for nearly all the Overton varieties for 1830, plus just might be a rare variety makes this coin a good bet. Plus knowledgeable Bust Half collectors usually don't let price guides determine how much they'll spend on a nice coin, especially mint state ones. Also, what else does this guy sell? He may not know what he has here.

Strat

Let's talk Bust Halves, then. Here's a link to a post I've started. Tell me what you think of this coin. Link

hughesm1

<< <i> ...plus just might be a rare variety makes this coin a good bet. Plus knowledgeable Bust Half collectors usually don't let price guides determine how much they'll spend on a nice coin, especially mint state ones... >>



Absolutely. Hence my statement on personal examination (or while not nearly as good, larger scans) as I can't tell from the available pics what die variety this one is. Throw out the price guides on R4+ material, you'll pay a healthy premium for them.

dorkkarl

<< <i>An MS62 qualifies for the condition census >>



i must respectfully disagree as to this point. the standards used to grade coins in the overton book are more stringent than those of pcgs. i'm probably wrong, but i doubt that a heavily dipped coin such as this one would have been graded ms-62. it likely would have netted a 60 grade, which would be a close call for the condition census. its like the copper coins are concenred - i'm not sure how significant are slabbed grades in the c.c.

Strat

I'm not sure either, Karl. My main purpose in defending this coin is to point out what might be right about it, not just what's wrong. This is an evaluation process I go through when buying any coin. In either case, though, the coin must be seen, as hughesm1 has said. However, I don't see much downside with this coin, and I notice it's going even higher, though not because of me, having just bought an IH Proof. A MS60 grade would still place the coin in the c.c. for 16 of the 23 varieties, but indeed, slabs may not mean much here. Thanks for the input, though, I have learned a bit by looking up this coin.

BigD5

Interesting points Strat. I didn't even pull out my Overton book. I still wouldn't pay the going price for that coin. Just me though

jamesfsm

Respectfully, the bidders on this coin are nuts and are dirven by the thoughts of an MS65 coin for $1700.

The Overton varieties, while collected for sure, are Overrated when it comes to price. As an example, I won a Bust coin in the Benson sale (PCGS slabbedwithout the Overton number) that Goldberg's attributed to a rare (Overton) die marriage and perhaps one of the two best quality known of that variety. The coin sold for the price of an ordinary coin in that date and grade with the Benson toning. If the variety is something neat like an overdate, then yes the money will increase. But I have seen lots of Bust coins sold as attributed accurately with rare die marriages that do nothing on the price. In Europe, numismatists thing we are nuts for even caring about such things.

I doubt the bidders are thinking "Overton O-XXX." They are thinking MS65. The seller clearly knows what coin grades are and could have upgraded as he alludes to that. Many bright white Bust Halfs have tons of luster (and light hairlines) and that is why they are MS62. I have some if you want to buy them for $1600.

The seller here is getting a great deal. The buyer may be getting a $700 coin for what looks like may hit $2,000 in unbelievable bidding.

dorkkarl

another idea to the theory that it's a better variety. didn't there used to be a cross-reference list on the old anacs slabs of serial number to variety? maybe there is one for pcgs as well.

Strat

Karl, I just looked up the cert number on the PCGS website, and the only info on variety is that it's a small O, which is the most plentiful type. I dunno Jamesfm, MS65 is a tall order for a Bust Half, but of course I'm thinking legit grading service, and perhaps the coin is destined for a lesser service. It's not a coin I can afford, so I'm strictly a spectator on this one. Regarding varieties, isn't it cool that in a hot coin market many can be had for catalog prices? Please comment on my coin, and slap a price on it.

Gilbert

Well, the most current Bust Half book, by Glenn Peterson (2000) list O-114 (not saying that is what this coin is) as an R5+ with a price range of $2k in F to $7.5K in AU.

Considering the coin is already in a PCGS slab, I cannot imagine they would bodybag it - especially if it is O-114. By guarantee they would owe the owner todays market value.

As far as the coin being "heavily" dipped, well now, how can you see that. It doesn't take but a quick submersion to remove some toning.

If you don't like the money some people are offering, so be it, but some of the assessments are really off the wall. Study the series a little before being overly critical, and then trying to justify the criticism with, well - that's the most positive thing I can say, so I'll say no more.

BTW, the Peterson book is not a waste of money, particularly, if you don't like accepting only one point of view. I would also like to add, for those who MAY want to know, the 1830 dies were "extensively lapped" which in itself may be why the coin appears to exhibit what some may be calling distracting marks.

jamesfsm

There is NO doubt the coin is dipped-----

JimD

Unless someone has some insider information, I don't see how you can assume this is anything besides an MS62. The image is almost worthless to grade or attribute this coin. Another question is why a bidder would outbid himself about 10 times. (the current underbidder) There is an unpleasant odor iminating from this auction.

Gilbert

Strat

The "small O" designation is on every variety up to O-120 which has a large O; PCGS didn't do anyone any favors with designation. I suppose unless and until it is attributed, we won't know if the bidders are idiots, as some allude, or if the coin is the high dollar variety.

Now the point mentioned by JimD would give me some concern (a bidder outbidding himself); but maybe he is as dumb as me. There was I coin I really wanted and had already submitted a mx bid, which I wanted to increase, but I didn't know if that would cause my 2nd bid to override the first. Would it????

dorkkarl

<< <i>As far as the coin being "heavily" dipped, well now, how can you see that. It doesn't take but a quick submersion to remove some toning >>


agreed, however it is essentially impossible for 170 year old sivler to have only "some" toning. virtually ever singly bust halves has been dipped multiple times. i have probably owned at least 1000+ over the years, and only seen 4 that i would say were utterly original, and they were ugly (to the novice)

zenny

for those questioning a bidder "outbidding" him or herself

this is a reserve auction, there is another previous bidder who outbid him or herself 4 times. maybe they were just trying to creep up to the reserve?

zenny

not an afficianado of these but the bidding does seem quite high.

especially curious as to the reserve here. wonder when and at what point it was hit. how he decided to make it so high? okay, maybe i'm starting to smell something....

after going through what this guy has for sale i think i'd be much more likely to bid on a "J A Coxe Squidding Reel" or "Hawaiian Wiggler Lures" or even a "Vintage Singer Hemstitcher."

Dog97

It don't look beat up enough for a 62. I would crack, dip and send it in in a heartbeat and expect a 63, maybe a 64 but no 65. It's funny that the seller thinks the old holder should be graded higher but but doesn't send it in himself.
ps you can't outbid yourself on eBay, once the reserve is met all further bids from the same highest bidder show the same amount unless somebody else bids and raises it.
psps you can't charge extra fees like the seller is doing for payment options or you risk getting cancelled.

jamesfsm

This auction just ended by the seller for prior sale. Maybe, he reads this forum.

Strat

Looks like on the bidders was NARU'd as well, due to this auction? Interesting. I wonder if we'll see it on EBay again, reincarnated in a new slab.

BigD5

There had to be something funky going on with that auction. Why would the seller cancel the auction with the price going so high? Something fishy there. Where did it show that the high bidder was NARU'd? I have someone bidding strangely in one of my auctions, here. I can assure everyone, I have no idea who "bozo" is. The only thing I can figure is he/she was trying to get to the reserve.

dorkkarl

couple of points i'd like to make here

(1) pcgs is not known for undergrading slabs. i've never personally seen a pcgs ms-62 that would go to 64, and maybe only seen 1 or 2 that might up to 63.

(2) as i and others thought, no real bidder would risk 1500 on a ms-62 bust half sight unseen. that would be incredibly stupid, and coincidentaly this auction got ended.

no question about it, something stiinks in the southland, and it ain't the fish!!!

jamesfsm

I concur with Dork. I mean. c'mon, a sight unseen MS62 type Bust 50C all white for $1500. If it had super duper toning, maybe. I just got one like that back from NGC in MS62 and you can have it for $1600!

Dog97

The seller ends the auction early and rushes to send the half to PCGS for an upgrade................

Gilbert

Maybe he took some notice of the fact that an O-114 is a big bucks coin, and has decided to have it attributed OR

Maybe it is a scam as many of you seem for imply and he pulled out before it got too late.