Legitimate 75-P 1/1 Trade Dollar?

lermish

This post is somewhat inspired by @JDark 's excellent series of posts on the eBay Authenticity guarantee. How does one guarantee authenticity when the guarantor may be wrong?

This coin is not in good condition; however, the 75-P is a key date for Trade Dollars. Even more so, the 75-P with the Type 1 reverse is one of the uber-difficult rarities of the Trade Dollar hub combination and/or variety set. When the Top 37 Trade Dollar Varieties Registry Set was being developed, the 75-P 1/1 was one of three varieties given the top weighting (along with the 76-S DDO and the 75-CC Very Wide).

There are a number of normal and easy tells on the 1/1. Given the ubiquity of 75-S 1/1 coins, this is a frequently altered coin. And, as a chopmark collector, this is the holy grail coin, so keeping an eye out for die markers on sometimes-mutilated coins is second nature.

The easiest tell to find is a die lump on Liberty's leg, followed by a die crack near the olive branch. (Subject coin on the left, high grade legitimate example on the right)

There is also a distinctive die lump on the N on the reverse.

There are a few other, less distinct markers that also do not show up. Additionally, the mintmark area shows some odd scratches, and the dentils look odd.

The eBay listing is here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/366788498163

So, there are three options: a real 75-P, an altered 75-S (or CC, but that is very unlikely), or a counterfeit coin. My opinion is that it is an altered 75-S. Any other thoughts or viewpoints?

RedRocket

It would be foolish to disagree with your assessment unless someone had firsthand knowledge in the study of this particular coin, in hand.
Even so, I'd agree with you regardless of that being the easy road to take.
All of your arguments make sense.
The least option would be a counterfeit as it does appear genuine.

LanLord

I'm just a lurker here on this thread, but there does appear to be many differences in the close up photos, even when wear is taken into account, they don't appear to be the same dies at all to my eye.

johnny9434

I like the over all look of it, looks good 👍

P0CKETCHANGE

Seems like sound analysis. Did you try to match die markers to known S or (unlikely as it may be) CC coins? That would be more definitive than the absence of markers.

lermish

@P0CKETCHANGE said:
Seems like sound analysis. Did you try to match die markers to known S or (unlikely as it may be) CC coins? That would be more definitive than the absence of markers.

I did not. There are quite a few 75-S and 75-CC dies and there was a limit to how much time and energy I wanted to put into this one.

This is not the first example of (IMO) 75-S removed MM I've seen though; as a matter of fact I've seen them in PCGS, NGC, and ANACS holders. However, it is the first I've seen that has been graded since @keoj published his book (best guess based on the cert #).

kaz

Very precise analysis. I think it's most likely a genuine 75-S sans mintmark.

keoj

JimW

Do the dentils look odd for a 75P, or just odd in general? Do they look OK for a 75S? Just asking bc people often say a tell of counterfiet is the dentils are not right.

OwenSeymour

It’s not an “opium dollar”, right? A 75-S T1 obv married with a common T1 reverse of another coin?

I’d bet a 75-S that had its mint mark removed, perhaps inadvertently

lermish

@JimW said:
Do the dentils look odd for a 75P, or just odd in general? Do they look OK for a 75S? Just asking bc people often say a tell of counterfiet is the dentils are not right.

The dentils just look odd in general, maybe they were tooled or engraved. They should not be that distinct with that much space between them.

Not right dentils are a common counterfeit giveaway and would be the primary reason that I might question whether the coin is counterfeit rather than altered. However I do think this is a genuine but messed with coin.

@OwenSeymour said:
It’s not an “opium dollar”, right? A 75-S T1 obv married with a common T1 reverse of another coin?

I’d bet a 75-S that had its mint mark removed, perhaps inadvertently

I don't think it's a box dollar. I would hope PCGS wouldn't miss that.

I agree regarding the MM but would bet against inadvertently. There are a couple 75-S reverse dies that were overpolished to where the MM was nearly completely gone. It's certainly possible this is one of those. But, given the profit motive my knee jerk reaction is to assume the worst.