@olb31 said:
I am a Dodger fan, love Kershaw. But I would pick Pettitte in the playoffs over Kershaw. Maddux was just ok, not stellar. Plenty of HOF pitchers did worse than Pettitte in the playoffs. Plus he won 5 WS. Kind of hard to top that in the last 60 or so years. Maybe WHitey Ford he won 6. And pitched great.
Didn't Houston do what you are saying...taking Pettitte to win playoff games and World Series?
They had him for three years and Pettitte had a grand total of one playoff win. Zero WS championships.
Pettitte was a plus pitcher, but in regard to titles and wins in the playoffs, that is more of a product of being on the Yankees....just ask Roger Clemens(a failure in Boston per your definition), then he road some coattails on the Yanks to finally win a title or two.
Houston cheated plain and simple. They should have their titles removed. My original post discusses the 3 people (Roger Clemens excluded) who have 250 wins or more who are not in the HOF. Pettitte, Moyer and TJ. We will never see another 250 game winner after Scherzer and Verlander retire. Since these 3 will have significantly more wins then any other pitcher moving forward (maybe 100 more) , will that be enough to get these 3 in the HOF.
I think it could and maybe should. I picked 250 just as a round number, we could go down to 225. Just picked 250 because so few are not in the hall from 250 up
@olb31 said:
I am a Dodger fan, love Kershaw. But I would pick Pettitte in the playoffs over Kershaw. Maddux was just ok, not stellar. Plenty of HOF pitchers did worse than Pettitte in the playoffs. Plus he won 5 WS. Kind of hard to top that in the last 60 or so years. Maybe WHitey Ford he won 6. And pitched great.
If going by that criteria Jack Morris should be in your top 5
@olb31 said:
I am a Dodger fan, love Kershaw. But I would pick Pettitte in the playoffs over Kershaw. Maddux was just ok, not stellar. Plenty of HOF pitchers did worse than Pettitte in the playoffs. Plus he won 5 WS. Kind of hard to top that in the last 60 or so years. Maybe WHitey Ford he won 6. And pitched great.
If going by that criteria Jack Morris should be in your top 5
@olb31 said:
I am a Dodger fan, love Kershaw. But I would pick Pettitte in the playoffs over Kershaw. Maddux was just ok, not stellar. Plenty of HOF pitchers did worse than Pettitte in the playoffs. Plus he won 5 WS. Kind of hard to top that in the last 60 or so years. Maybe WHitey Ford he won 6. And pitched great.
If going by that criteria Jack Morris should be in your top 5
Yes I agree. He showed up when it mattered.
I guess the 1992 playoffs didn't matter (0-3, 7.43 ERA, 1.696 WHIP).
@olb31 said:
Houston cheated plain and simple. They should have their titles removed. My original post discusses the 3 people (Roger Clemens excluded) who have 250 wins or more who are not in the HOF. Pettitte, Moyer and TJ. We will never see another 250 game winner after Scherzer and Verlander retire. Since these 3 will have significantly more wins then any other pitcher moving forward (maybe 100 more) , will that be enough to get these 3 in the HOF.
I think it could and maybe should. I picked 250 just as a round number, we could go down to 225. Just picked 250 because so few are not in the hall from 250 up
Point remains, using Pettitte's playoff wins as a key barometer is very faulty.
However, per your overall point, Pettitte was indeed an excellent pitcher and has HOF consideration.
Moyer does sneak up on people. 4,000 IP in the heart of the live ball era and managed to have a 103 ERA+. That isn't going to be enough tho, and add that his peak was really small and didn't have any elite years.
Tommy John with 4,700 IP and a 111 ERA+ is going to be enough at some point...especially with the Kaat inclusion.
John will get in. Moyer will not. Pettitte won't for now because he is still included in the PED 'banned' list. If that perception ever changes with inclusions of Clemens and Bonds, then Pettitte might have a shot.
David Cone is better than all those guys.
Jack Morris is vastly inferior to David Cone and it isn't even close. If 'when it mattered' is your criteria, then Cone was 5-0 in the World Series with a 2.12 ERA with FIVE World Series rings.
@bgr said:
Cone would be in the HOF is 300 wins was never a thing.
You can read all about it in Rick James book too and only then will you understand baseball.
Regarding Morris. I think he belongs in the HOF and I believe that saying he's vastly inferior to Cone is quite a stretch.
Rick James the "Super Freak" artist and convicted rapist, or did you mean Bob James the Baseball Historian/Statistician & Baseball Abstract author ?
and yes Cone was superior to Tommy John and Jaime Moyer. Cone also has the edge I feel over Morris and Kaat.
I meant Rick James to emphasize the ridiculousness of someone else. But that you corrected me with "Bob" is next-level. I guess Bill's close friends call him Bob!
Stripping "vastly" from the description removes the hyperbole I was responding to. The rest is subjective and relays an opinion which is without objection from me.
@bgr said:
Cone would be in the HOF is 300 wins was never a thing.
You can read all about it in Rick James book too and only then will you understand baseball.
Regarding Morris. I think he belongs in the HOF and I believe that saying he's vastly inferior to Cone is quite a stretch.
"Vastly inferior" is just incorrect.
At about the same number of innings pitched, 2793 for Morris to Cone's lifetime 2898, Morris' ERA was 3.46 to Cone's 3.66. Cone was better, not vastly better.
Then you get an additional 926 innings out of Morris to nothing for Cone. They both pitched about the same number of years from about the age of 23-39. Jack got a year's head start and lasted a year longer. Jack also pitched more than twice as many complete games.
Cones peak was much higher, his best 5 ERA+ years are better than any of Jack's seasons, but then Jack has 8 very good years to David's 4. Morris also had 11 seasons with over 230 innings pitched to Cones 4.
One unusual stat I noticed was David seems to have enjoyed hitting batters. Looking at walks and wild pitches, both pitchers were about equal, but Dave hit over twice as many guys per inning pitched.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@bgr said:
I meant Rick James to emphasize the ridiculousness of someone else. But that you corrected me with "Bob" is next-level. I guess Bill's close friends call him Bob!
Stripping "vastly" from the description removes the hyperbole I was responding to. The rest is subjective and relays an opinion which is without objection from me.
Bob James the Jazz Musician known for Angela (Theme to Taxi) as well as music of his being oft sampled for hip hop.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972) Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
I think there's sometimes too much investment in better and best. I would say of Morris that he was a durable, big-game pitcher who was top of the rotation on 3 WS champs. Oh.. and he pitched one of the best game 7s ever. I don't hate on Mazeroski either, because the HOF doesn't mean "only the best at some set of things". I think those moment type of accomplishments might be more important to the criteria for HOF enshrinement than pure statistical assessment - especially when considering borderline cases.
@bgr said:
I meant Rick James to emphasize the ridiculousness of someone else. But that you corrected me with "Bob" is next-level. I guess Bill's close friends call him Bob!
Stripping "vastly" from the description removes the hyperbole I was responding to. The rest is subjective and relays an opinion which is without objection from me.
Bob James the Jazz Musician known for Angela (Theme to Taxi) as well as music of his being oft sampled for hip hop.
That's a James I'm not familiar with and I would not comment on Jazz without reading Bob's book first.
@olb31 said:
Cone was very good. Maybe deserves to be in HOF. I just picked the 4 over 250 wins.
No doubt, it is a premise worthy of discussion...especially when considering someone like Moyer(which is an interesting case).
But then what happens if the 250 guys all get in, would starting a 240 wins be the logical next thread? Tanana and Denny Martinez were both better than Moyer. Better than Morris too.
Frank Tanan was a LOT better than Jack Morris....300+ more IP with a 119 ERA+ compared to Morris's 'Moyer like' 105 ERA+
Or @bgr is a "LOT" better wrong too? LOL. I guess I will just settle for Tanana being a better pitcher than Morris and MORE worthy of the HOF mistake that Morris was.
Heck, Tanana was even the ACE of the staff from 1974-1979 that had Nolan Ryan on it.
@olb31 said:
Cone was very good. Maybe deserves to be in HOF. I just picked the 4 over 250 wins.
No doubt, it is a premise worthy of discussion...especially when considering someone like Moyer(which is an interesting case).
But then what happens if the 250 guys all get in, would starting a 240 wins be the logical next thread? Tanana and Denny Martinez were both better than Moyer. Better than Morris too.
Frank Tanan was a LOT better than Jack Morris....300+ more IP with a 119 ERA+ compared to Morris's 'Moyer like' 105 ERA+
Or @bgr is a "LOT" better wrong too? LOL. I guess I will just settle for Tanana being a better pitcher than Morris and MORE worthy of the HOF mistake that Morris was.
Heck, Tanana was even the ACE of the staff from 1974-1979 that had Nolan Ryan on it.
I said vastly inferior was hyperbole in my opinion.
The comments about Bill James and understanding baseball were just jokes regarding another thread. I’m not trying to make a case that Morris was too whatever.
@olb31 said:
Cone was very good. Maybe deserves to be in HOF. I just picked the 4 over 250 wins.
No doubt, it is a premise worthy of discussion...especially when considering someone like Moyer(which is an interesting case).
But then what happens if the 250 guys all get in, would starting a 240 wins be the logical next thread? Tanana and Denny Martinez were both better than Moyer. Better than Morris too.
Frank Tanan was a LOT better than Jack Morris....300+ more IP with a 119 ERA+ compared to Morris's 'Moyer like' 105 ERA+
Or @bgr is a "LOT" better wrong too? LOL. I guess I will just settle for Tanana being a better pitcher than Morris and MORE worthy of the HOF mistake that Morris was.
Heck, Tanana was even the ACE of the staff from 1974-1979 that had Nolan Ryan on it.
I said vastly inferior was hyperbole in my opinion.
The comments about Bill James and understanding baseball were just jokes regarding another thread. I’m not trying to make a case that Morris was too whatever.
I agree you were right about saying my comment was hyperbole. It was.
No harm no foul. I enjoy engaging your responses. I wasn't quite sure if that James comment was meant to me or the way that he was portrayed as a diety in that thread.
@olb31 said:
Cone was very good. Maybe deserves to be in HOF. I just picked the 4 over 250 wins.
No doubt, it is a premise worthy of discussion...especially when considering someone like Moyer(which is an interesting case).
But then what happens if the 250 guys all get in, would starting a 240 wins be the logical next thread? Tanana and Denny Martinez were both better than Moyer. Better than Morris too.
Frank Tanan was a LOT better than Jack Morris....300+ more IP with a 119 ERA+ compared to Morris's 'Moyer like' 105 ERA+
Or @bgr is a "LOT" better wrong too? LOL. I guess I will just settle for Tanana being a better pitcher than Morris and MORE worthy of the HOF mistake that Morris was.
Heck, Tanana was even the ACE of the staff from 1974-1979 that had Nolan Ryan on it.
I said vastly inferior was hyperbole in my opinion.
The comments about Bill James and understanding baseball were just jokes regarding another thread. I’m not trying to make a case that Morris was too whatever.
I agree you were right about saying my comment was hyperbole. It was.
No harm no foul. I enjoy engaging your responses. I wasn't quite sure if that James comment was meant to me or the way that he was portrayed as a diety in that thread.
Comments
I think Whitey Ford gets a knock because he was a prolific cheater.
POSSIBLY. I JUST PICKED THE PEOPLE OVER 250 WINS. JUST WIN BABY!!
Dude just ignores the haters and goes all caps. Love it. Game respects game.
This post made me laugh.
Didn't Houston do what you are saying...taking Pettitte to win playoff games and World Series?
They had him for three years and Pettitte had a grand total of one playoff win. Zero WS championships.
Pettitte was a plus pitcher, but in regard to titles and wins in the playoffs, that is more of a product of being on the Yankees....just ask Roger Clemens(a failure in Boston per your definition), then he road some coattails on the Yanks to finally win a title or two.
Or ask Houston.
Houston cheated plain and simple. They should have their titles removed. My original post discusses the 3 people (Roger Clemens excluded) who have 250 wins or more who are not in the HOF. Pettitte, Moyer and TJ. We will never see another 250 game winner after Scherzer and Verlander retire. Since these 3 will have significantly more wins then any other pitcher moving forward (maybe 100 more) , will that be enough to get these 3 in the HOF.
I think it could and maybe should. I picked 250 just as a round number, we could go down to 225. Just picked 250 because so few are not in the hall from 250 up
Yeah, that ERA in the World Series being TWO FULL RUNS LOWER is just "ok" compared to "the stud".
And nobody is taking Kershaw in the playoffs over practically anyone.
If going by that criteria Jack Morris should be in your top 5
Yes I agree. He showed up when it mattered.
I guess the 1992 playoffs didn't matter (0-3, 7.43 ERA, 1.696 WHIP).
Point remains, using Pettitte's playoff wins as a key barometer is very faulty.
However, per your overall point, Pettitte was indeed an excellent pitcher and has HOF consideration.
Moyer does sneak up on people. 4,000 IP in the heart of the live ball era and managed to have a 103 ERA+. That isn't going to be enough tho, and add that his peak was really small and didn't have any elite years.
Tommy John with 4,700 IP and a 111 ERA+ is going to be enough at some point...especially with the Kaat inclusion.
John will get in. Moyer will not. Pettitte won't for now because he is still included in the PED 'banned' list. If that perception ever changes with inclusions of Clemens and Bonds, then Pettitte might have a shot.
David Cone is better than all those guys.
Jack Morris is vastly inferior to David Cone and it isn't even close. If 'when it mattered' is your criteria, then Cone was 5-0 in the World Series with a 2.12 ERA with FIVE World Series rings.
Cone would be in the HOF is 300 wins was never a thing.
You can read all about it in Rick James book too and only then will you understand baseball.
Regarding Morris. I think he belongs in the HOF and I believe that saying he's vastly inferior to Cone is quite a stretch.
Rick James the "Super Freak" artist and convicted rapist, or did you mean Bob James the Baseball Historian/Statistician & Baseball Abstract author ?
and yes Cone was superior to Tommy John and Jaime Moyer. Cone also has the edge I feel over Morris and Kaat.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
I meant Rick James to emphasize the ridiculousness of someone else. But that you corrected me with "Bob" is next-level. I guess Bill's close friends call him Bob!
Stripping "vastly" from the description removes the hyperbole I was responding to. The rest is subjective and relays an opinion which is without objection from me.
"Vastly inferior" is just incorrect.
At about the same number of innings pitched, 2793 for Morris to Cone's lifetime 2898, Morris' ERA was 3.46 to Cone's 3.66. Cone was better, not vastly better.
Then you get an additional 926 innings out of Morris to nothing for Cone. They both pitched about the same number of years from about the age of 23-39. Jack got a year's head start and lasted a year longer. Jack also pitched more than twice as many complete games.
Cones peak was much higher, his best 5 ERA+ years are better than any of Jack's seasons, but then Jack has 8 very good years to David's 4. Morris also had 11 seasons with over 230 innings pitched to Cones 4.
One unusual stat I noticed was David seems to have enjoyed hitting batters. Looking at walks and wild pitches, both pitchers were about equal, but Dave hit over twice as many guys per inning pitched.
Cone was very good. Maybe deserves to be in HOF. I just picked the 4 over 250 wins.
Bob James the Jazz Musician known for Angela (Theme to Taxi) as well as music of his being oft sampled for hip hop.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Not even a minute do I buy the whole buh buh buh I'm a man-child japery - Me (2025)
I think there's sometimes too much investment in better and best. I would say of Morris that he was a durable, big-game pitcher who was top of the rotation on 3 WS champs. Oh.. and he pitched one of the best game 7s ever. I don't hate on Mazeroski either, because the HOF doesn't mean "only the best at some set of things". I think those moment type of accomplishments might be more important to the criteria for HOF enshrinement than pure statistical assessment - especially when considering borderline cases.
That's a James I'm not familiar with and I would not comment on Jazz without reading Bob's book first.
Why 250? Why not 240? Frank Tanana has less w> @bgr said:
I stand corrected. Vastly was the wrong descriptor.
As for Morris belonging in the HOF that is equally the wrong descriptor.
I don't care about James....he's just a guy. Don't need him to understand ball at all.
No doubt, it is a premise worthy of discussion...especially when considering someone like Moyer(which is an interesting case).
But then what happens if the 250 guys all get in, would starting a 240 wins be the logical next thread? Tanana and Denny Martinez were both better than Moyer. Better than Morris too.
Frank Tanan was a LOT better than Jack Morris....300+ more IP with a 119 ERA+ compared to Morris's 'Moyer like' 105 ERA+
Or @bgr is a "LOT" better wrong too? LOL. I guess I will just settle for Tanana being a better pitcher than Morris and MORE worthy of the HOF mistake that Morris was.
Heck, Tanana was even the ACE of the staff from 1974-1979 that had Nolan Ryan on it.
I said vastly inferior was hyperbole in my opinion.
The comments about Bill James and understanding baseball were just jokes regarding another thread. I’m not trying to make a case that Morris was too whatever.
I agree you were right about saying my comment was hyperbole. It was.
No harm no foul. I enjoy engaging your responses. I wasn't quite sure if that James comment was meant to me or the way that he was portrayed as a diety in that thread.
I was making fun of that very idea.