PCGS reconsideration - Does CAC stickers have any influence?

oih82w8

I am about to send in some CAC stickered coins for crossover and possible reconsideration on my 1892 25C DDO PCGS MS63 while adding the variety attribution. In your experience/opinion, does a CAC stickered coin have any influence on Full Numerical Grade or + (plus)? It's definitely not PL.

Thank you for your interest and comments.

jmlanzaf

I certainly hope not.

coinbuf

I do not see how it could not have at least some influence but is not the real question does the sticker have a positive or negative influence. Put another way, does the PCGS grader have a bias about CAC that might influence his objectivity.

johnny9434

I would say no as well. 2 different companies and if it upgrades ya lost the bean. Up to you 😉

oldabeintx

If the photo is reasonably accurate I doubt that a higher grade or a plus are in the cards, sticker or not.

Kliao

While we would hope that a sticker would not influence the grader, it probably does.

It makes me think back to an interview that John Albanese had given. He was asked if it was easier to get a sticker on a coin in an older holder. JA's answer was that he only grades the coin and not the holder. However, he couldn't tell you if subconsciously, there is some bias for a coin in an older holder.

Old_Collector

A gold sticker maybe but I don't see why a green sticker would influence an upward grade bias, and the retail price of a 63+ is only $50 for the FS-101, which is not a great financial move for the cost and then paying to hopefully re-sticker the +. It seems like the cheapest way to get it into a holder with the variety (not really necessary as collectors recognize them easily) would be to cross over to CAC adding the designation.

PeakRarities

@coinbuf said:
I do not see how it could not have at least some influence but is not the real question does the sticker have a positive or negative influence. Put another way, does the PCGS grader have a bias about CAC that might influence his objectivity.

@Kliao said:
While we would hope that a sticker would not influence the grader, it probably does.

It makes me think back to an interview that John Albanese had given. He was asked if it was easier to get a sticker on a coin in an older holder. JA's answer was that he only grades the coin and not the holder. However, he couldn't tell you if subconsciously, there is some bias for a coin in an older holder.

Chicken dinner for you both… 🍗

ProofCollection

I have sent a few CAC Morgans in for recon and I don't remember any of them being successful. PCGS is being really tight, even with +'s.

winesteven

I’ve sent quite few whole grade coins in for Reconsideration, asking for a plus, all with green stickers. I believe in theory the stickers being present on the label make absolutely no difference. However, one never knows if there is a subconscious bias.

My results have been very satisfactory over the years. My coins are typically four-figure value coins, so when I do get a plus, it often adds significant value. A few positive pluses have resulted in double or triple value increases, but those are the exceptions. Occasionally I’ll buy a newly graded coin in a whole grade, and if I think it merits a plus I’ll send it in for Reconsideration. Despite having been graded maybe only a month or two earlier without the sticker, some of my submissions (now with a sticker), came back with a plus! In my opinion, it wasn’t due to the sticker, but due to the coin itself! In my opinion, when graders have a raw coin, they often tend to think in terms of a whole grade. But when a coin comes in via Reconsideration asking for a plus, THAT is the one and only thing the grader focuses on - does this coin merit a plus, or not?

About half the coins in my collection eligible for a plus, have a plus (grades of 60, 61, 69 and 70 are ineligible for a plus). Roughly half of my plus coins I bought with the plus. The others got their plus via Reconsideration.

Since the cert number remains the same, getting the sticker “automatically” reapplied by CAC has never been a problem, and the fee is their much lower “re-sticker” fee. Coins submitted for Reconsideration that fail to upgrade come back in the same holder (so no need for re-stickering).

Steve

ProofCollection

@winesteven said:
I’ve sent quite few whole grade coins in for Reconsideration, asking for a plus, all with green stickers. I believe in theory the stickers being present on the label make absolutely no difference. However, one never knows if there is a subconscious bias.

My results have been very satisfactory over the years. My coins are typically four-figure value coins, so when I do get a plus, it often adds significant value. A few positive pluses have resulted in double or triple value increases, but those are the exceptions. Occasionally I’ll buy a newly graded coin in a whole grade, and if I think it merits a plus I’ll send it in for Reconsideration. Despite having been graded maybe only a month or two earlier without the sticker, some of my submissions (now with a sticker), came back with a plus! In my opinion, it wasn’t due to the sticker, but due to the coin itself! In my opinion, when graders have a raw coin, they often tend to think in terms of a whole grade. But when a coin comes in via Reconsideration asking for a plus, THAT is the one and only thing the grader focuses on - does this coin merit a plus, or not?

I have the same impression, whether it's accurate or not I don't know. The disappointing thing is that a lot of times I want a regrade so I get a new slab, and per our theory, I'd have to submit it a second time to get the consideration for a plus.

jt88

Instead of reconsideration I sent mine to regrade because PCGS will not grade lower than your current grade, especially if you don't have TV, regrade will allow you to have your TV done.

ProofCollection

@jt88 said:
Instead of reconsideration I sent mine to regrade because PCGS will not grade lower than your current grade, especially if you don't have TV, regrade will allow you to have your TV done.

Right, be @winesteven and I are saying that we have the impression that if you want a plus, you might not get it with a regrade (or you'll be less likely to).

winesteven

@ProofCollection said:

@jt88 said:
Instead of reconsideration I sent mine to regrade because PCGS will not grade lower than your current grade, especially if you don't have TV, regrade will allow you to have your TV done.

Right, be @winesteven and I are saying that we have the impression that if you want a plus, you might not get it with a regrade (or you'll be less likely to).

The other reason I don’t do regrade is that with Regrade, EVERY coin I submit will then have to go back to CAC to get a sticker put back on, even if the grade remains unchanged. Then when resubmitted to CAC stickering, one has to pay the much higher evaluation fee, instead if the cheap re-sticker fee. We’re now talking about a ton of extra CAC fees! As noted in my original reply, with Reconsideration, I have to send back to CAC only the coins that got upgraded, and only pay the cheap resticker fee. Coins that do not upgrade via Reconsideration get returned in their original holder with the sticker intact!

Steve

split37

I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

MFeld

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

jacrispies

Yes

And once you get your + upgrade, CAC will sticker it again.

split37

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

winesteven

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

Your success rate with stickered coins is lot better than mine!

Steve

MFeld

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

Seeing as how your upgrade success rate is slightly higher for your unstickered coin submissions, why do you think there’s a subconscious bias for CAC coins (“at least in the Peace Dollar world”) ?

split37

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

Seeing as how your upgrade success rate is slightly higher for your unstickered coin submissions, why do you think there’s a subconscious bias for CAC coins (“at least in the Peace Dollar world”) ?

My guess for the subconscious bias is that more attention is paid to CAC coins to reason why they aren't worthy, and PCGS's opinion is the finality of the matter. I'm not convinced a 3% difference is worth taking a sticker off though. Maybe.

MFeld

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

Seeing as how your upgrade success rate is slightly higher for your unstickered coin submissions, why do you think there’s a subconscious bias for CAC coins (“at least in the Peace Dollar world”) ?

My guess for the subconscious bias is that more attention is paid to CAC coins to reason why they aren't worthy, and PCGS's opinion is the finality of the matter. I'm not convinced a 3% difference is worth taking a sticker off though. Maybe.

Thank you. I certainly wouldn’t remove a sticker for such submissions, regardless of upgrade percentages.

split37

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

Seeing as how your upgrade success rate is slightly higher for your unstickered coin submissions, why do you think there’s a subconscious bias for CAC coins (“at least in the Peace Dollar world”) ?

My guess for the subconscious bias is that more attention is paid to CAC coins to reason why they aren't worthy, and PCGS's opinion is the finality of the matter. I'm not convinced a 3% difference is worth taking a sticker off though. Maybe.

Thank you. I certainly wouldn’t remove a sticker for such submissions, regardless of upgrade percentages.

I suppose it depends on the value context. I would, if it ensured I make a registry coin I've burned shoes looking for, or if a spread between grades for resale warrants it. Re-stickering is an easy and cheap proposition. I don't think my numbers are conclusive enough to make it actionable, but I'd definitely like to see a larger sample size.

skier07

If you submit a stickered coin to PCGS as a Regrade the coin is cracked out of the holder and gets a new certification number. If the coin goes up a grade or remains the same grade there’s no guarantee it will sticker at CAC.

split37

@skier07 said:
If you submit a stickered coin to PCGS as a Regrade the coin is cracked out of the holder and gets a new certification number. If the coin goes up a grade or remains the same grade there’s no guarantee it will sticker at CAC.

No, I'm referring to reconsideration "+" grade only, not regrade.

Walkerlover

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:

@MFeld said:

@split37 said:
I submit a lot of coins for + grade reconsideration and my objective numbers are 59% no upgrade and 41% upgrade when a CAC sticker is involved. I think there is a subconscious bias; at least in the Peace Dollar world.

But what was the breakdown when CAC stickers weren’t involved?

Excellent question! My breakdown, is 56% no upgrade and 44% upgrade with unstickered coins. That is out of a sample size of nearly 100.

Seeing as how your upgrade success rate is slightly higher for your unstickered coin submissions, why do you think there’s a subconscious bias for CAC coins (“at least in the Peace Dollar world”) ?

I think the success rate for PCGS reconsideration depends mainly on the coin not the sticker. Selecting the correct coins make for a better success rate than the any sticker. Most CAC coins are mostly comprised of B coins so you need to think of A coins to submit