WHAT IS A SCAM BLISS COIN PRESS?
Pete2226
Posts: 74 ✭✭✭
I have been actively maintaining a spreadsheet of the information contained on Certificates of Authenticity provided by the US Mint for retired dies they have sold. The spreadsheet currently has almost 300 listings and is available in .pdf for anyone interested.
My question is about a press type: What is a "Scam" Bliss Press? I have only found 2 certificates with this identification!
With mint press numbers on these certificates, some have only a number. Others include letters like this one. For Example, for some others, I have surmised the following:
WP = “W” = “Waagerecht” = “Horizontal” in German; P = Press
WS = Ditto FOR W; S = Schuler
Sp = S = Senkrecht = “vertical” or “perpendicular”; p = Press
Comments
Might I suggest that you add "coin press" to the thread title to attract
@dcarr
attention. Otherwise it might attract jocularity.
DONE! Thanks for the suggestion!
Interesting – I have bought and sold probably
600-700++ defaced US mint canceled dies with those CERTs,
and always looked at the CERT – I’ve never seen that term before……
What about hijinks?
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
>
Have you thought of submitting a FOIA request to get this data instead? That would be a treasure trove, if you could get it.
Or shenanigans.
Don't forget those....
I have thought about it, but the process has seemed daunting!
I did it once at the mint. It's actually pretty easy.
There are FOIA letter templates online for the generic wording. Just plug in the specific details and mail it off.
I filed a formal FOIA request with the Denver Mint requesting to see certain documents related to the 1922-D Cent coinage, and never received a response.
SCAM stands for Special Coins and Metals.
Could it be "Special Coins and Medals"? 🤔
Special Coins and Metals was the department name Denver used back then. Changed to what is now called Numi.
That would certainly fit the context but I would expect an acronym to be all caps?
Also tomfoolery comes to mind . . ..
All of this badinage reminds me of a VIP tour of the Philadelphia Mint that I got back in 2009. The Mint was getting ready to launch the 2009 Ultra High Relief St. Gaudens coin as the first of its "We can do anything we want so long as it is made out of 24kt Gold!" programs, and it wanted publicity in the numismatic press. COINage Magazine was invited to send a representative, and I got the assignment with the understanding that I would also get a VIP tour to write about.
The then-current layout was maximized for huge production numbers. Dozens of the new sideways-striking German presses were laid out in rows, each with ten or more presses feeding their output into a common conveyor belt made up of small bins that carried the output to a machine that dumped them into one of those giant ballistic bags that could hold maybe 4,000 pounds of coins. One main room had multiple rows that struck nothing but Lincoln cents. In the other main room the first row of presses was set up for only dimes. The next row of presses was set up to strike William Harrison dollars. I did not get a chance to look at the other rows.
Looking around to see what I could see, I noticed one lonely old vertical coin press, probably a Bliss but I could not swear to that, standing against one of the outside walls of the coining room. I asked my guide what that was for, and he said that they used it for small jobs like the half dollars for the Mint sets. I just assumed that that also included the coins sold in rolls and bags, but I did not ask.
Since the output of the main production lines was co-mingled in the conveyor belt system, you could not attribute any given coin to the pair of dies that struck it. Therefore, it would make sense if these "coin and die" sets were struck on an old Bliss press over in the corner using just one pair of dies at a time. It would make sense to refer to it as a "Special Bliss" press, and it there was only one it would be Press Number "SB01."
TD
Pain to do all caps acronym everytime it's used when using a manual typewriter. I would suspect.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maint. Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
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I agree. The online form is easy. I still have the Joey Bananas FBI files from the Omega thread.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
keep in mind the foia is a documentation request. they don't describe or explain. those are press office jobs. if you know what general department would have the documentation then work it into the request.. if you're unsure state so. we are dealing with a bureaucracy
I sent a FOIA in regard to the Eller bros counterfeits and it took nearly a year to get an answer and then was so vague as not to help.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I certainly agree with the inefficiency of using a manual typewriter! I used one for ALL my college papers! Of course, back then, we did not have calculators! We used Slide Rules instead.
I hope to be able to quote your story - especially about the likely definition of SB! Hope that is okay with you!
The question has been raised: Why was a “Special” press being used to produce circulation coins? It seems that SB01 was not the only special press in use at this time for circulation coins. The image below comes from the Bliss Press section of my spreadsheet, and see the image of a certificate that uses “S. Press Bliss”. The “S” appears to indicate “Special”.
The mint was transitioning to the state quarter program cannot be the only explanation, since we know that circulating cent production also used presses with the designation.
Schuler Presses were first introduced in 1987 and it may be that these older Bliss Presses were being phased out and were utilized wherever they were needed.
Quote away, Pete!
From Roger Burdette:
WHAT IS A SCAM BLISS COIN PRESS?
Special Coins and Metals department; Bliss Munitions Equipment Co. cartridge press reconfigured for striking coins. A surplus vertical one (a cupping press) was used to make the 1964-D Peace dollars.
Roger
Nope, Special Coins and Metals Department (SCMD) is the correct name.
That’s great information from Roger – in the defaced die deal that I bought from the Denver mint back in 1996, there were Cent sized dies that were grease penned “MM” which I assumed meant those small bronze mint metals used in mint sets,, etc.
Most of the other dies, cent through commemorative dollar dies, had grease pen notations that would say “CO“ for Cent Obverse, or “DR” for dime reverse, and so on.
I had 10 55- gallon steel drums filled with the dies, mixed denominations, shipped out here to LA and I’m happy to report that I’m down to one and a half barrels after 30 years!
I am finding reliable information elusive, so I appreciate first-hand research and experience (10 barrels!!
)! from Roger and Fred and Tom!
I have not found any reference to "Special Coins and Metals" or to that being designated as a distinct department or section of the facilities in either Denver or Philadelphia.
There is, however, a "Special Coins and Medals Program" mentioned in Annual Reports from the 1980s (Beginning 1979). The last mention I have found of the program is 2014. I am suspecting that may be the reference ("Scam") for SB1, although I have no evidence other than an acronym that would fit the name! I was extrapolating the S = Special for my other spreadsheet entries in the clip posted.
(METALS/MEDALS = perhaps quibbling for me to pick on one word difference?)
I cannot tell you which one is correct. I never heard the term before this thread.
I might speculate that one of the words (medals/ metals) is a typo of the other that crept into the reports along the way and simply kept getting repeated over and over for years. Neither is a word that looks out of place in Mint documents.
"Medals" is intuitively more likely to be correct, but as I say I do not know.
As to the subject of "Special Presses," I remember my first visit to the Denver Mint's gift shop during the ANA's 1976 Summer Seminar. They had a small press set up where visitors could "strike their own souvenir medal" with a picture of the Mint on the front and the Treasury seal on the back. You went to the cashier and bought a copper-colored blank (1-1/2 inches? 1-3/8th inches? somewhere around there) for 50 cents and went back to the press where the man sitting behind the press let you reach in and place your blank on the lower die. He then told you to press the two buttons on the small tabletop between you and the coin press. They were about two feet apart so it took both hands to operate the press, thereby keeping your hands from getting smashed by the dies. You then reached in and picked up the medal that YOU had just struck!
In some subsequent year I went over there and watched some of the students go through this ritual. I watched the guy sitting behind the press, and sure enough, as I expected, he operated the press with a foot switch when the visitors hands were safely on the two dummy buttons.
I am sure now that this little press was on the Mint's inventory sheets somewhere as a "Special Press." Possibly even a SPAM.
TD
I got my information directly from the US Mint, ultimately from the head of manufacturing, who looked it up. I am confident in its accuracy.
Chris
Thank you! Good to know! The difficulty I am having is that I have been unable to find any reference whatsoever to that name or Department! Did you happen to keep a copy of the letter/email? I would find that helpful to have a copy for my documentation.
Do you have the reference where Roger found this information?
UPDATE:
I continue to take seriously the contributions everyone has made offering an answer to my question. THANK YOU!
I have been searching for some documentation of the meaning of “Scam” relating to the suggestions made.
The phrase “Special Coins and Medals” appears numerous times in Mint documents. No references have as yet been found to “Special Coins and Metals”. From these various references, it is contextually clear that the use of “Special” refers to Medals and Numismatic Quality coins such as Proof Coins.
I have found one reference which implies that there was a department or organizational unit dedicated to the production of Special Coins and Medals in San Francisco. This is contained in a phrase: “special coins and medals and computer employees” contained in a 1973 Press release. Nothing similar is listed in a 1974 Denver Staffing Plan.