For T$ or Counterfeit Nerds - Answer provided

keoj

Might as well add another counterfeit TD into the mix....

This one was highlighted to me recently (thanks BK!). It was listed in an upcoming Heritage Auction this week, It has since been pulled out of the auction. I'll let folks mull on this for a couple of hours before I post a brief analysis (lermish, you are excluded from this exercise ). This one is a little tricky. 1875-CC Type I/II's TDs are rare and just because this is an unknown reverse die does not prove counterfeit (but is cause for suspicion). IMO, the quality is pretty good.

Comments welcome,

keoj

lermish

Well that's no fun

BlueSofa

I’ll be honest. The only things that stood out to me here were minor, and I would have concluded it was good. My eyes did jump to two raised bumps that gave me pause: the first on the obv on the dress, level with the L in LIBERTY and vertical from the 1 in the year, and the other on the rev behind the eagle’s head. However, I think the obv bump exists on certain dies. So, stumped and assuming this is an open book test, I went to learn about the IIL and IIM reverses and see we might have an issue with contiguous tail feathers here in place of a protruding feather?

TennesseeDave

I'm surprised it got past the graders at Anacs. Other than the 2 raised bumps already mentioned, I don't see anything else that jumps out to me as a counterfeit.

rte592

Makes sense now
Came here to see what T money was
Makes Total sense now.

tradedollarnut

This seems unusual

dcarr

The denticles (especially on the top half of the obverse) are no good (rough).

Bikergeek

@rte592 said:
Makes sense now
Came here to see what T money was
Makes Total sense now.

T Money was my rap name but I'm retired now.

2windy2fish

Liberty’s face is kinda wonky and the E pluribus unum banner is not at all crisp/sharp

ZenithBullionPA

Quite good. It likely would have gotten me, especially given the holder, which looks legit to me (but I'm certainly not an expert in slabs).

I've read about some scary-good counterfeit trade dollars. This would probably be one of them.

MsMorrisine

don't like the beak

Cougar1978

It would have fooled me but I am not a specialist on them.

keoj

Like I said, this one was tricky!!!

There are three items are big clues on this one...the first being the biggest.

1) The Reverse Die is a IIL die. IIL Reverse dies were not introduce until 1877, All Type II reverse dies used in 75 and 76 were IIM dies.

2) With that in mind, the host die that was used to create this CC Reverse die was, in fact, an 1877-CC die. In my book, this is Reverse Die H (but without the clash marks). I'm pretty confident on this one....you can the the bump on feathers underneath the E in "UNITED".

But what about the obverse...could a leftover 75-CC Obverse die been married to a 77-CC Reverse die?

3) Nope...it turns out the Obverse host die was from a die used to produce 1875-S coins. The die lumps are found on 1875-S Obverse Die 13 (also in the book). I am VERY confident on this one.

But I was way impressed by the quality of the dies.....minute die diagnostics from the dies where well conveyed onto this coin. I assume EDM?

Last year, I saw a similar type of counterfeit...a 1877-S Type II/I (unknown combo.....all coins minted after 1876 were Type II/II (with many IIM and IIL Obverse and Reverse combinations). I reviewed this coin and although I couldn't get an accurate weight, it was in a ANACS holder, it was close. In the end, I was pretty confident that the Obverse Die was an 1877 (not 77-S). It was scary good, except for the impossible combination.

PM me if you have any comments or questions.

Best, keoj

CaptHenway

That piece is scary!

kaz

The die lump to the left of the eagle, and the malformed dentils near the top on the obv and rev... but otherwise pretty convincing!

BlueSofa

Thank you for posting this and sharing your insights! Fascinating and wild to see.

slider23

What is the difference between the IIL and IIM dies?

kaz

@slider23 said:
What is the difference between the IIL and IIM dies?

on IIL the feathers on the eagle's right leg (above the olive leaves) are smooth and contiguous; on the IIM they stick out. Nice photos in Joe's book.

slider23

@kaz said:

@slider23 said:
What is the difference between the IIL and IIM dies?

on IIL the feathers on the eagle's right leg (above the olive leaves) are smooth and contiguous; on the IIM they stick out. Nice photos in Joe's book.

Interesting as I was looking at that area on a genuine 75CC and it looked different but I thought it was the photos on the ANACS counterfeit coin causing the difference. I have Joe's book, but I did not pick up that there were two different type 2 dies.

DDR

Very useful, thank you Keoj.

TallahasseeCoinClub

That is an outstanding counterfeit and would have fooled me.

MsMorrisine

what about addressing the individual issues noted by other forumites? seems like the pimples are a dead giveaway

lermish

@MsMorrisine said:
what about addressing the individual issues noted by other forumites? seems like the pimples are a dead giveaway

It's hard to tell what the spot on the reverse is but is likely a defect.

However the obverse pimples are real die chips from a 75-S obverse which was presumably copied to make this one.

JDark

Possible reverse match?

lermish

@JDark said:
Possible reverse match?

Very well could be, nice work! Doesn't show the prominent die clashes of the LDS original but otherwise looks pretty similar.

JDark

I keep digging!