High quality counterfeit T$ on eBay?

lermish

https://www.ebay.com/itm/147237432513

Extra metal remnants above the arrows. Extra metal remnants around RICA and the bottom of the eagle's wing. Missing details in the feathers. "Pimples" in the folds of the dress. Odd looking EPU. The closer I look, the worse it gets (although it is a pretty high quality fake IMO).

The seller claims it was cracked out of a holder.

Edited to reflect that a die pair has been found. Still uncertain about whether it is genuine.

IkesT

@lermish said:
Despite the seller having, in his words, "30+ years experience", this is a fake. Not only does it not match any known reverse dies, it has many issues with the surface quality remaining from its casting.

Looks like a match for Coxe-50.2, which has a lot of weird die defects, especially on the reverse.

http://registry.ssdcvams.com/Trade/1877-S_Trade.html

lermish

@IkesT - Good catch on the die match.

The obverse was copied from this one with the prominent die chip on the IGWT banner:

I'm still not convinced it's real. With the other issues on RICA, lack of feather detail, etc @alefzero Thoughts?

IkesT

@lermish said:
@IkesT

The obverse was copied from this one with the prominent die chip on the IGWT banner:

Same die pair, but earlier die state, missing some of the reverse die chipping (e.g., around the arrows and olive leaves).

lermish

@IkesT said:

@lermish said:
@IkesT

The obverse was copied from this one with the prominent die chip on the IGWT banner:

Same die pair, but earlier die state, missing some of the reverse die chipping (e.g., around the arrows and olive leaves).

You are correct. Do you think the eBay coin is genuine? I am still of the opinion that it is not.

IkesT

@lermish said:

@IkesT said:

@lermish said:
@IkesT

The obverse was copied from this one with the prominent die chip on the IGWT banner:

Same die pair, but earlier die state, missing some of the reverse die chipping (e.g., around the arrows and olive leaves).

You are correct. Do you think the eBay coin is genuine? I am still of the opinion that it is not.

Based on what I see so far, I'm leaning towards genuine. I've got to run soon, but it would be worth looking around for other examples that have chipping around "RICA", as it could be an even later die state.

Coxe's plate coin for the C-50.2 looks like it has the start of chipping on the "R":

CaptHenway

I see nothing in the pictures that tells me it is not genuine. Would not say it is genuine without seeing it in hand.

Smudge

Not a coin I would buy raw.

braddick

I too agree it is counterfeit.
This area of the top obverse rim is troublesome to me (along with other 'tell' described above):

Clackamas1

It is a $2000+ coin in base MS so one must ask why not have it graded instead of selling it for a discount of $1650?

tradedollarnut

@braddick said:
I too agree it is counterfeit.
This area of the top obverse rim is troublesome to me (along with other 'tell' described above):

I think you’re seeing some remnants of rim impressions on the plastic. With that said, it’s the weirdest reverse that I’ve seen. My first impression was genuine, then possibly fake and then shrug

FlyingAl

My gut is leaning genuine here.

jmlanzaf

@tradedollarnut said:

@braddick said:
I too agree it is counterfeit.
This area of the top obverse rim is troublesome to me (along with other 'tell' described above):

I think you’re seeing some remnants of rim impressions on the plastic. With that said, it’s the weirdest reverse that I’ve seen. My first impression was genuine, then possibly fake and then shrug

mr1931S

although it is a pretty high quality fake IMO

My first thought: If this is a fake I would be astounded. My 2nd thought (a few hours later): CaptHenway and tradedollarnut had the same first thought I had.

IkesT

@lermish

Here are some more examples from HA and GC that have the chipping around "RICA"; looks like a legit later die state of the C-50.2:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1877-s-t-1-cleaned-ngc-details-au-mintage-9-519-000-pcgs-7046-/a/132410-21498.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515#

https://coins.ha.com/itm/trade-dollars/1877-s-t-1-cleaned-anacs-xf40-details-mintage-9-519-000-pcgs-7046-/a/132336-21446.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1438799/1877-S-Trade-Silver-Dollar-NGC-AU-Details

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/865011/1877-S-Trade-Silver-Dollar-NGC-AU-Details

braddick

I suppose I should change my answer of Feld's "Hardest Coin to Grade" thread.
It is the Trade dollar.
Without authentication, grade is of little importance.

fathom

If that is a counterfeit that would scare the crap out of me.

Why do sellers crack out material that looks eye appealing and shove it into cardboard and cellophane. That is what you have to ask. Genuine ungradeable wiped?

mr1931S

@fathom said:
If that is a counterfeit that would scare the crap out of me.

Why do sellers crack out material that looks eye appealing and shove it into cardboard and cellophane. That is what you have to ask. Genuine ungradeable wiped?

Yes. The same thought process goes on with me when I'm at the local shop. I think to myself, "Why is this coin not in a collector's collection? How much is this puppy dog in the window? Price seems right but close inspection with 10x loupe oftentimes reveals something I don't want to live with.

Did excessive hairlines (from improper wiping) not visible in the pictures earn this piece a details grade? Really, one has to have in hand for close inspection. $2000+ is a lot of money so I would pass on purchase especially given the bad attitude of seller manifesting itself already in an early buyer asking question(s) phase.

TennesseeDave

Looks genuine to my eyes. I've never seen a fake with that kind of luster.

Cougar1978

I would not buy anything raw at that value level. Furthermore a big ticket coin like that raw in mkt would be a red flag for me.

If the coin had been cracked out of a holder why had it not been resubmitted? Was it in a details holder then cracked out?

As far as the seller claiming it was in a holder well then he needs to get it back in one lol.

TennesseeDave

@jmlanzaf said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@braddick said:
I too agree it is counterfeit.
This area of the top obverse rim is troublesome to me (along with other 'tell' described above):

I think you’re seeing some remnants of rim impressions on the plastic. With that said, it’s the weirdest reverse that I’ve seen. My first impression was genuine, then possibly fake and then shrug

Definitely a fake...

YQQ

I find this subject amazingly interesting, and it can apply to many coins posted here on the forum.
So??? nobody has any "convincing " proof either way... just guesses.
Who is right? it is easy to say it is a fake...it slips much too often over someone's lips.
IF it is graded... why not have it re-graded under insurance?
If it is not graded, why not have it graded?
But, my guess, it is too well known by now, by all the TPG's.
Maybe there is a good reason by the OP to post it?

lermish

@YQQ said:
Maybe there is a good reason by the OP to post it?

Education?

I consider myself an advanced (but not expert) trade dollar collector. I spoke with some friends who are more knowledgeable than I prior to posting it; two thought fake, one abstained. I also felt strongly it was counterfeit. I still have concerns as to authenticity but am less certain than I was.

No other hidden agendas or subterfuge.

Rc5280

"The seller claims it was cracked out of a holder."

What was written on the label?

The seller obviously didn't find what was written on the label to be beneficial to making the sale?

lermish

@Rc5280 said:
"The seller claims it was cracked out of a holder."

What was written on the label?

I don't think you need much imagination to make what is (likely) an accurate guess.

tradedollarnut

A couple of points:

There’s apparently zero luster on the obverse - consistent with a fake or a cleaning. It’s not a $2k coin in or out of a holder

The most suspicious thing in my mind is the missing details in the right wing. But without a corresponding picture of the die variety, it’s unknown to me if that’s what it’s supposed to look like.

Rc5280

@lermish said:

@Rc5280 said:
"The seller claims it was cracked out of a holder."

What was written on the label?

I don't think you need much imagination to make what is (likely) an accurate guess.

Agree. So what was potentially written on the label?

My guess(es) would be:
1) Genuine Details in a legit TPG holder.
2) A counterfeit coin in a non-legit TPG holder.
3) ??

lermish

@tradedollarnut said:
A couple of points:

There’s apparently zero luster on the obverse - consistent with a fake or a cleaning. It’s not a $2k coin in or out of a holder

The most suspicious thing in my mind is the missing details in the right wing. But without a corresponding picture of the die variety, it’s unknown to me if that’s what it’s supposed to look like.

@IkesT has matched the die marriage to this one (although this is an earlier die state) which explains a lot of the very odd reverse die features. But not all of them.

The wing details are a big issue for me. I also don't like the texture/pimples all through LIberty's dress.

lermish

IkesT

Looks like there may have been die polishing between the C-50.2 state and the later die state (chips on "RICA"), that would explain the missing wing detail. There is a prominent die chip on the eagle's wing on the C-50.2 that is actually reduced on the later die state, which would also be consistent with die polishing.

keoj

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure it's real. Although the die marriage is new to me, the obverse is dead nuts real. There are distinct features in on the right scroll edge of the IGWT scroll and the left side of the olive branch below Miss Liberty's right hand. This obverse is married to two reverse dies. This reverse die is new to me but nothing screams "not genuine". From the many postings from ikesT, he has strong rationale and that's great (nice job ikesT!!!!!!).

keoj

tradedollarnut

First one of these that I’ve seen
https://www.ebay.com/itm/336520749770?itmmeta=01KNG9WKW0TDY34S3Q8Z570JX9&hash=item4e5a3322ca:g:WGYAAeSwB~Zp0wzI&itmprp=enc:AQALAAAA4DKQclQvzFwZQpmMrsO4LupAoq0nADmlikXd4dyR1/5pMCfvOYEHTdKYosuIhUl9A84aoPS64Ss62+T0Xvi+rCLUyptlQbiHE9xXGMUX64reK4hcgMkfFsWnjUL2ggl3VgiN2nZM4hdZATvtFH6AiptXyWATqhLksZ7S3TSW4onH/Z0FK/8bPV1Ga9W95pugop0oxWAHGiHv+uuOOeLgmVn2imlvlmpjT03pGNGlBQ1S900WjbWYNv5RH2XjIt8j9pij/9LihR1z3H1lWpiZSnHMiw0lCYMdRjbpCM8tvZdL|tkp:Bk9SR4q-8omsZw

MsMorrisine

https://www.ebay.com/itm/336520749770

expand on "first i've seen..."

pcgsregistrycollector

Don't buy em raw

TallahasseeCoinClub

OP coin looks genuine to me. Edited to add: I own numerous counterfeit Trade dollars as part of my reference collection.

keoj

I have a couple as well. I'll post one in the day or so.

Keoj

Cougar1978

Show me yours In CACG holders. Only raw coins I have are junk box material 50c to $10 lol.

johnny9434

@jmlanzaf said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@braddick said:
I too agree it is counterfeit.
This area of the top obverse rim is troublesome to me (along with other 'tell' described above):

I think you’re seeing some remnants of rim impressions on the plastic. With that said, it’s the weirdest reverse that I’ve seen. My first impression was genuine, then possibly fake and then shrug

@jmlanzaf said:

@tradedollarnut said:

@braddick said:
I too agree it is counterfeit.
This area of the top obverse rim is troublesome to me (along with other 'tell' described above):

I think you’re seeing some remnants of rim impressions on the plastic. With that said, it’s the weirdest reverse that I’ve seen. My first impression was genuine, then possibly fake and then shrug

Love the gold bean (?)

keoj

This was a counterfeit that I highlighted in my book. This fake was a Type I/I 1875 (extremely rare). The details are in the book but the short story is that it was missing a die diagnostic on the obverse...first tell. Next tell was that this coin had a die diagnostic on the Reverse that matched an 1875-S die. There are many 1875-S reverse dies so it took a bit to match it. In this end, the mintmark was VERY skillfully removed.

keoj

The prior one was somewhat obvious. This one was in my "Top 10" of great counterfeits. This one was in a TPG holder, the weight was good, but it's hard when it's in a holder. Everything looked really good but the mintmark looked a little off. I looked at this for three days before I found theses features. Very subtle. I was verifying this for the owner (I can't lay my hands on a full picture, but it perfect). I told him the coin was fake and he asked me to send a write up back to the TPG with observations. The TPG concurred and made him whole (eg the bought the coin) and I'm sure it is in a fake reference set.

Keoj

keoj

Last one for the day....this was about 2% heavy (but Trade Dollar weights are really accurate). Most the features are pretty accurate. The mintmark size, no period and the fact that the leaves are recut are the tells. This was not in my top ten counterfeits.

Have fun!

keoj