TPG Variety Attribution

USSID18

Commonplace, well known and documented die varieties can readily be attributed by using their current approved listings or various numismatic publications. But if the coin is unusual and not in a standard reference, the TPGs "apparently" have to do some work before they can make a "pronouncement." This might include the usual common references, or the research done to identify an often valuable new discovery piece.

Each TPG charges an extra fee for attribution. If the variety is not listed anywhere, how much research is actually being done to attribute it?

jmlanzaf

Zero. They only attribute known varieties in certain standard references.

A variety not listed anywhere doesn't exist until it is listed in a reputable source.

USSID18

Thanks @jmlanzaf ! 👍

coinbuf

@jmlanzaf said:
Zero. They only attribute known varieties in certain standard references.

A variety not listed anywhere doesn't exist until it is listed in a reputable source.

Exactly, the TPG's wait for the folks like Wexlers to do the research and list a new discovery before they consider adding it to their approved list.

jesbroken

Realize that ANACS attributes far more varieties than most. Especially pre 1877 ½ dimes and dimes. If they would return to SWH's(soapbox) I feel they would realize a large increase in sub's. JMO
Jim

messydesk

@USSID18 said:
Commonplace, well known and documented die varieties can readily be attributed by using their current approved listings or various numismatic publications. But if the coin is unusual and not in a standard reference, the TPGs "apparently" have to do some work before they can make a "pronouncement." This might include the usual common references, or the research done to identify an often valuable new discovery piece.

Each TPG charges an extra fee for attribution. If the variety is not listed anywhere, how much research is actually being done to attribute it?

A lot. If the submitter asks for the variety to be researched and it's not listed anywhere, more research is being done than if it is, because every listed variety (or at least every variety acknowledged by the TPG) has to be ruled out. On top of that, ANACS and I will inform the submitter what they have and give instructions for having it added to a reference. For Morgan dollars, I'll also add it to the VAM catalog, but that's beside the point.

Unlisted doubled dies may be listed as "minor variety - doubled die" without precise attribution by our hosts, but that seems discretionary on their part.

USSID18

@messydesk said:

@USSID18 said:
Commonplace, well known and documented die varieties can readily be attributed by using their current approved listings or various numismatic publications. But if the coin is unusual and not in a standard reference, the TPGs "apparently" have to do some work before they can make a "pronouncement." This might include the usual common references, or the research done to identify an often valuable new discovery piece.

Each TPG charges an extra fee for attribution. If the variety is not listed anywhere, how much research is actually being done to attribute it?

A lot. If the submitter asks for the variety to be researched and it's not listed anywhere, more research is being done than if it is, because every listed variety (or at least every variety acknowledged by the TPG) has to be ruled out. On top of that, ANACS and I will inform the submitter what they have and give instructions for having it added to a reference. For Morgan dollars, I'll also add it to the VAM catalog, but that's beside the point.

Unlisted doubled dies may be listed as "minor variety - doubled die" without precise attribution by our hosts, but that seems discretionary on their part.

What would those instructions be to have it added to a reference?

messydesk

It depends on the type, but most have a specific gatekeeper for such things. The instructions would be to contact said gatekeeper and arrange to send them the coin for inspection, including my letter, which would what I see and why I think it's not a listed variety.

USSID18

@messydesk said:
It depends on the type, but most have a specific gatekeeper for such things. The instructions would be to contact said gatekeeper and arrange to send them the coin for inspection, including my letter, which would what I see and why I think it's not a listed variety.

Got it. Someone like Variety Vista, CONECA/Error Scope, Wexler, etc..

Thanks John.

Barberian

Regarding PCGS, if you don't identify the coin variety or die marriage yourself and tell them exactly what the coin is, they will likely either get it wrong or blow it off entirely. They will not make an effort to follow explicit instructions given by the customer and will likely ruin the attribution and waste your money. That has been my experience with our hosts. However, they bat around .900 when you tell them exactly what it is.
.
You MUST tell them what the die marriage is!!! If the attribution requires a reed count, forget it! They have no serious numismatists there who can or will do a reed count. If they were real numismatists and not "Sears" numismatists (F Zappa), they would place the coin within a parabolic mirror, photograph it, print out the photo, and count the reeds in 5-minutes total. Other TPGs like ANACS are likely better at attributions than PCGS. I'm probably going to send coins that PCGS charged me $20 for nothing to Varslab to have rare die states validated.

lermish

@Barberian said:
They have no serious numismatists there who can or will do a reed count. If they were real numismatists and not "Sears" numismatists (F Zappa), they would place the coin within a parabolic mirror, photograph it, print out the photo, and count the reeds in 5-minutes total. Other TPGs like ANACS are likely better at attributions than PCGS. I'm probably going to send coins that PCGS charged me $20 for nothing to Varslab to have rare die states validated.

For some types, yes. John Dannreuther does the trade dollar variety attribution.

😂

Barberian

@lermish said:

@Barberian said:
They have no serious numismatists there who can or will do a reed count. If they were real numismatists and not "Sears" numismatists (F Zappa), they would place the coin within a parabolic mirror, photograph it, print out the photo, and count the reeds in 5-minutes total. Other TPGs like ANACS are likely better at attributions than PCGS. I'm probably going to send coins that PCGS charged me $20 for nothing to Varslab to have rare die states validated.

For some types, yes. John Dannreuther does the trade dollar variety attribution.

😂

OK, maybe they are good with Trade dollars, but they cannot even recognize Redbook varieties in the seated halves. I have about a half dozen PCGS coins that were mislabeled as 1855 normal dates, so they have a long history of failing their customers at recognizing Redbook varieties. I submitted a pronounced EDS WB-1 overdate and their staff were confident that they got their normal date determination correct. The messages from Customer Service were so poor they reminded me of the classic Cheech and Chong skit, "Dave's not here".

lermish

@Barberian said:

@lermish said:

@Barberian said:
They have no serious numismatists there who can or will do a reed count. If they were real numismatists and not "Sears" numismatists (F Zappa), they would place the coin within a parabolic mirror, photograph it, print out the photo, and count the reeds in 5-minutes total. Other TPGs like ANACS are likely better at attributions than PCGS. I'm probably going to send coins that PCGS charged me $20 for nothing to Varslab to have rare die states validated.

For some types, yes. John Dannreuther does the trade dollar variety attribution.

😂

OK, maybe they are good with Trade dollars, but they cannot even recognize Redbook varieties in the seated halves. I have about a half dozen PCGS coins that were mislabeled as 1855 normal dates, so they have a long history of failing their customers at recognizing Redbook varieties. I submitted a pronounced EDS WB-1 overdate and their staff were confident that they got their normal date determination correct. The messages from Customer Service were so poor they reminded me of the classic Cheech and Chong skit, "Dave's not here".

I have run into many of the same issues as you. I consider myself very fortunate to have avoided most of the attribution issues that other series have run into. In terms of the varieties themselves, PCGS has been about 95% accurate with me...if counting other issues like billing, mechanical errors, etc, they move down to about 75% accuracy.