Unopened Pack Grading?

Mantlefan

Mark Murphy had a big ad in the SCD touting his new service to grade and encapsulate unopened packs and boxes. I respect Mark, but I have my doubts about this. What do you guys think?

acowa

If he can spot a tampered with pack...I think it's valuable. People spend a ton of dough on "unopened" vintage material...this would give those people peace of mind.

Avoiding getting ripped off is what most people are buying with PSA...I think it works with unopened packs as well.


Regards,


Alan

Mantlefan

Good point Alan. It works both ways. I collect and sell vintage packs. As a collector, it would be reassuring to know my packs are untampered. As a seller, I would expect to get a higher price for a pack if it's certified. I have some 1962 Topps BB wax packs which have been bringing about $400 each at auction. I'll have Mark grade one and then I'll sell it on EBAY and see what happens.

acowa

Can you give me one for providing such sound advice?

Regards,

Alan

riccaboni

Do you have to "crack" the cases to actually get the pack or is their some nifty mechanism that opens the case to get at the pack, so you won't damage the pack?

Thanks,
Ian

thegemmintman

I'm not crazy about his policy that any pack that comes out of an unopened case automatically receives a 10, and any pack that doesn't come from an unopened case can never receive a 10. This policy is too absolute in nature. That would be like PSA saying we'll automatically give you a 9 on any card that comes out of an unopened pack (not that they do this), but we won't give 9's if you send them in raw. It's a flawed policy. You have to wonder about the policy on unopened cases. Every pack gets a 10? Couldn't that be just an enticement for people to send in their unopened cases because they know all the packs are locks for 10's?

acowa

Then you probably love SCDA's untouched policy. I actually think the value is in making sure someone didn't break open the pack and reseal it (rather than assign a condition).

Regards,


Alan

Mantlefan

Alan

As you say....the value is insuring true "unopened" status. By some miracle, I opened a pack of 86 BK Fleer last night and found a mint centered Jordan! I thanked the seller - yoda-collector - for his honesty. All too often though, you hear stories of resealed packs containing off-centered commons. Nice to get a good one.

crazysc

<< <i>I'm not crazy about his policy that any pack that comes out of an unopened case automatically receives a 10, and any pack that doesn't come from an unopened case can never receive a 10. This policy is too absolute in nature. That would be like PSA saying we'll automatically give you a 9 on any card that comes out of an unopened pack (not that they do this), but we won't give 9's if you send them in raw. It's a flawed policy. You have to wonder about the policy on unopened cases. Every pack gets a 10? Couldn't that be just an enticement for people to send in their unopened cases because they know all the packs are locks for 10's? >>



I'm not 100% certain, but I think only the second part holds true. Only packs from cases can get 10s, but not necessarily every pack from a sealed case would receive a 10...

qualitycards

SOL is right, it would only get a "10" if the grade warrants it. But a non case submission could only receive a "9" as its highest grade. I responded to this topic on the other forum. And my take was, they were throwing a bone so submitters would send in case lots to have graded, thus 720 submissions, then if you sent in a box of 36. I also remarked that the ad states that they will grade unopened boxes and cases, I'm not sure of the slab method, perhaps a sticker on the box or case, or maybe they use saran wrap then apply a sticker. A thought that I had, was what kind of shape would a case be in, if it gets shipped to Murphy, and then he ships it back. USPS or UPS, tend to turn in NM/MT cases into VG when dealing w/ 60-70 pound items...jay

thegemmintman

I understand now - thanks. I pulled out my SCD and read it for myself. It is still an enticement to send in a case because that's the only way possible to receive a 10 on a pack. That's still a flawed policy. There could be single packs out there that are 10's but will never receive a 10 because an unopened case wasn't sent in.

crazysc

Perhaps it would make more sense if they graded packs as they saw them, but added a designation of "from sealed box/case". Like SCD does for their untouched...

acowa

I wonder if the holder will allow the packs to slide around? I would like to see the washing machine experiment done on one of these. C'mon Bruce...step up.

Regards,

Alan

MickeyC

I agree that it's a good idea to authenticate these packs, and if anyone is going to do it, Mark Murphy probably should be the one.

But, as I read the SCD ad, he says "No one can sell 1986/87 Fleer Basketball wax boxes on Ebay for what they are really worth, about $10,000. Most people would be lucky to get a bid of half that. So this service will make all unopened material sell for what it's worth.."

Interesting words from him. I watch several of his auctions, and have seen at least 2 of his auctions for 86/87 boxes that DIDN'T SELL, with a Buy It Now of around $9,500. Hey, great, if he can step in and authenticate packs and boxes, I'm all for it. But then...get out of the unopened retail market. Do you think he is sitting on several of these boxes, waiting to get them authenticated?

After seeing this ad, this is what I thought of immediately. The old adage...buyer beware.

Mark

Mantlefan

Good point Mark. Murphy cannot sell his own packs after grading them...that would certainly be a conflict of interest and would not be ethical.

MickeyC

Thanks Frank. My thinking is, one or the other, can't do both.

On a related note, did anyone see the article in Tuff Stuff, probably a month or so ago, from TJ Schwartz, heralding the arrival of SCD grading? I had to write to him with my reservations. Here's a piece of the email I sent to TJ:

"Don't you think it just a little worrisome that SCD is grading cards for an advertiser like Larry Fritch, who in turn advertises the graded cards in SCD? I'm sure there are other advertisers who submit to SCD. How can a collector purchase these graded cards and feel he/she is getting the real deal? ...I'm amazed that collectors don't figure these things out. The integrity of the grading is compromised when second and sometimes third parties are invloved, parties who have a stake in each card's grade."

Schwartz' response:

"SCD doesn't sell cards, auction cards, or grade for TV sales. That's why I chose them. Frisch didn't get a boatload of 9's and 10's, just the grades he deserved. After submitting hundreds of cards, I can assure you that they are very tough."

He just doesn't get it. Again...buyer beware!

Mark

Mantlefan

The integrity of the grading is
compromised when second and sometimes third parties are invloved, parties who have a stake in each card's grade.

Brings to mind Alan Hager. He formed one of the first grading companies in the 90's and patented the PSA holder. He sold thousands of his own graded cards for inflated prices. Turns out most of the cards were altered and all were terribly over-graded. He was eventually driven from the hobby and he's now resurfaced in the coin collectible market.

TWINRON

MY OPINION ONLY--MARK MURPHY CONFLICT OF INTEREST--HE COULD BE ON THE ENRON BOARD-- PSA 5

Mantlefan

Ron

I agree. I plan on calling Mark tommorow [mainly about the pricing...$50 for 10 day service seems a lot] and I will ask him if he plans on selling his self-graded stuff.

gtx

correction; alan hager didn't start grading cards in the 90's he was already doing it in the 80's. many new to the hobby don't realize there were at least 5 grading services before PSA.

waitilltheytrytosell

Here's another angle on packs coming from an unopened case, or a sealed box. You of course don't want your pack searched. You don't have to necessarily open open a pack to search a pack. If somebody opens a box of 1989 Upper Deck and gets a Griffey card out of the first pack, there is no incentive to open any more packs. You could have all the packs authenticated, and while technically they are original unsearched packs, they aren't likely to contain anything good. If you were to have them grade your whole sealed box or case of packs, every one of those packs has a chance to contain the money card. These are better "unsearched" packs, hence the 10 possibility when grading. I think this would work for only the kind of packs that you can't see through.

Which brings to mind 1986 Fleer, and I don't quite understand something. For 1986 Fleer Basketball, there are people who know exactly what cards are contained inside each pack. You can see through the wax wrapper, and based on the card you see, you know what cards are contained inside. While these packs are technically unopened and unsearched, the contents are indeed known. That is why good sellers don't let people go through or look at the packs when buying them. The only way a pack is "unsearched" is if nobody looks at the pack to see what's inside. So now, even if a pack is graded, you will still be able to see inside. So the dealer will still need to "hide" the packs from you. If somebody were to look at the Mint 10 packs from a sealed case, all they would have to do is just buy the ones with Jordan in them. You would really have to seal them inside something in which you can't even see the pack.

gaspipe26

gtx,
Thats correct. The first one Popped up around 1985 or 6. I still have the prom card they graded.


There are alot of "conflicts of interest" in this business. Look at just about every publication and auction house. Even Collectors Universe is a conflict of interest, when you get right down to it. They grade and sell with the companies they own.

Mantlefan

Thanks, I didn't realize Hager had been [mis]grading for so long.

I called Mark Murphy today. I have some 1962 Topps 5c. wax packs which have been going for about $400 on EBAY. It remains to be seen if authenticating will improve my prices, but I agreed to send him a pack for grading. With shipping it will cost me $50 for 20 day service, so I'll need to clear more than $450 on the pack to make it worthwhile. We'll see.

I also asked Mark if he will be selling his own Graded packs. He said yes [cough, cough]he will, but he'll have someone else grade his stuff [who would that be?].

MickeyC

<< <i>
I also asked Mark if he will be selling his own Graded packs. He said yes [cough, cough]he will, but he'll have someone else grade his stuff [who would that be?]. >>



This turns my stomach. He just lost a customer.

Mark

TWINRON

IS MARK RELATED TO HAGER???---DANGER CURVE AHEAD!!!

waitilltheytrytosell

I really don't see a problem with Murphy grading and selling his own packs. It's simply what people have asked him to do before. Now the only difference is, it's permanent and accountable. It's nothing different than people preferring to buy unopened packs from him now. It's the same thing with autographs. People ask Murphy for advice on packs all the time. People ask Spence for advice on autographs all the time. They have a good reputation in the hobby for knowing about what they're selling. They could make mistakes, but you are dealing with good people with good intentions. Good people trying to maintain their good reputation and status in the hobby. If I was looking to buy an autograph or pack, I would prefer to buy it from them or somebody like them. Whatever they are selling, authenticated or not, it has to be also accepted as genuine when viewed by the hobby. The hobby knows what its looking at, and will accept or reject, welcome with open arms or destroy. They aren't going to knowingly sell bad stuff, with or without official authentication. Now, if Hager started authenticating packs and autographs, I wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole. It's who you're dealing with that's most important.