@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
The hypocrisy of the voters is evident.
I simply prefer accurate statements. I have Beltran as HOFer.
@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
The hypocrisy of the voters is evident.
I simply prefer accurate statements. I have Beltran as HOFer.
All I could find was Beltran's name was "mentioned" in the report and that all players were given immunity.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
The hypocrisy of the voters is evident.
I simply prefer accurate statements. I have Beltran as HOFer.
Beltran himself admitted he was involved in the cheating scandal. So it is accurate to say he cheated since he himself said it. MLB investigation said it too.
@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
The hypocrisy of the voters is evident.
I simply prefer accurate statements. I have Beltran as HOFer.
Beltran himself admitted he was involved in the cheating scandal. So it is accurate to say he cheated since he himself said it. MLB investigation said it too.
He cheated. Is cheating good integrity or bad?
Do you have Sammy Sosa as a Hall of Famer?
George Brett as well.
You’re moving a lot of dirt to try to argue against a position that doesn’t think Beltran cheated. I only questioned whether he was designer of the scandal. Good framing job I suppose.
@Basebal21 said:
Yet Ortiz is in and so is Beltran who was fired from managing the Mets for his role in the Astros cheating.
If Sheffield isnt going to get votes than they shouldnt either. If they are than he should too.
Just be consistent
Beltran was a GG Centerfielder and I don't know his role in the cheating.
He was literally the designer of it.
Can you provide your sources?
"From The Athletic:
[I]t was Beltrán who, according to multiple sources, told the Astros that their sign-stealing methods were “behind the times.”
During the season, small groups of Astros discussed their misgivings. McCann at one point approached Beltrán and asked him to stop, two members of the 2017 team said.
“He disregarded it and steamrolled everybody,” one of the team members said. “Where do you go if you’re a young, impressionable player with the Astros and this guy says, ‘We’re doing this’? What do you do?”
Beltran and Alex Cora were singled out in MLB’s investigation as two of the main forces behind the Astros’ scheme, which used a camera in centerfield to relay live signs into the Astros dugout. Houston players would then use a nearby trash can to signal to hitters in real-time if a breaking ball was coming."
Beltran admitted to it like I said above...not directly admitting to being the ring leader...but that he was indeed singled out by name by the MLB investigation as a key figure.
He admitted they did it. However, he tried to justify it by saying other teams did it. He also blamed the manager for not stopping it lol.
He did it. There isn't a question.
Double Standard.
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
The hypocrisy of the voters is evident.
I simply prefer accurate statements. I have Beltran as HOFer.
Beltran himself admitted he was involved in the cheating scandal. So it is accurate to say he cheated since he himself said it. MLB investigation said it too.
He cheated. Is cheating good integrity or bad?
Do you have Sammy Sosa as a Hall of Famer?
George Brett as well.
You’re moving a lot of dirt to try to argue against a position that doesn’t think Beltran cheated. I only questioned whether he was designer of the scandal. Good framing job I suppose.
There is no framing there. Simple questions.
Good try with Brett...that wasn't cheating and certainly no advantage at all with an extra inch of pine tar lol. in fact, that pine tar ruling by the umps was over turned by the league and they said what I just said...'it didn't provide a competitive advantage.'
Do you think stealing a pitch sign provides a competitive advantage? Beltran himself said it did and that is why they kept doing it because it was working. So he admitted he cheated and that it provided a competitive advantage.
Pure framing as you attempt to assign a position I do not hold to me so that you can argue that he cheated with someone. You draw lines of cheaters vs not. So I threw you a bone with Brett. Now you want to engage on Sosa. Framing. Get outta here with that.
Change your name from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner.> @bgr said:
Pure framing as you attempt to assign a position I do not hold to me so that you can argue that he cheated with someone. You draw lines of cheaters vs not. So I threw you a bone with Brett. Now you want to engage on Sosa. Framing. Get outta here with that.
No framing. Simple questions.
Perhaps you should change your handle from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner...a corner that you cannot escape without exposing either bias or hypocrisy.
I expected more from a varsity letterman. I leave disappointed. Oh well.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Change your name from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner.> @bgr said:
Pure framing as you attempt to assign a position I do not hold to me so that you can argue that he cheated with someone. You draw lines of cheaters vs not. So I threw you a bone with Brett. Now you want to engage on Sosa. Framing. Get outta here with that.
No framing. Simple questions.
Perhaps you should change your handle from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner...a corner that you cannot escape without exposing either bias or hypocrisy.
I expected more from a varsity letterman. I leave disappointed. Oh well.
You're being absurd. It could not be more clear what I asked or that you're crafting a position for me. Yet it's all lost in the noise of your multitude of vociferous posts about nothing.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Change your name from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner.> @bgr said:
Pure framing as you attempt to assign a position I do not hold to me so that you can argue that he cheated with someone. You draw lines of cheaters vs not. So I threw you a bone with Brett. Now you want to engage on Sosa. Framing. Get outta here with that.
No framing. Simple questions.
Perhaps you should change your handle from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner...a corner that you cannot escape without exposing either bias or hypocrisy.
I expected more from a varsity letterman. I leave disappointed. Oh well.
You're being absurd. It could not be more clear what I asked or that you're crafting a position for me. Yet it's all lost in the noise of your multitude of vociferous posts about nothing.
Wasn't being absurd. Was simply asking your thoughts. The questions I was asking were what I was interested in hearing your thoughts on. No worries. I do read your posts more than most and that is a sincere statement. Sure, it does seem like you have a little double standard with Beltran and Sosa so I did want to navigate that. I really wanted to know if you thought Sosa was a HOFer in your mind.
In previous threads you kinda gave neutral answers on that subject, so I don't honestly know if you feel Sosa was or not. Of course if you said 'NO' Sosa isn't...I would follow up with why not him but why Beltran when Belttran admitted to cheating and that the cheating did indeed provide a competitive advantage...while Sosa did admit to some 'mistakes' etc etc etc....
Anyway, a long discussion I am not interested in. I guess that sums it all up anwya.
@1948_Swell_Robinson said:
Change your name from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner.> @bgr said:
Pure framing as you attempt to assign a position I do not hold to me so that you can argue that he cheated with someone. You draw lines of cheaters vs not. So I threw you a bone with Brett. Now you want to engage on Sosa. Framing. Get outta here with that.
No framing. Simple questions.
Perhaps you should change your handle from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner...a corner that you cannot escape without exposing either bias or hypocrisy.
I expected more from a varsity letterman. I leave disappointed. Oh well.
You're being absurd. It could not be more clear what I asked or that you're crafting a position for me. Yet it's all lost in the noise of your multitude of vociferous posts about nothing.
Wasn't being absurd. Was simply asking your thoughts. The questions I was asking were what I was interested in hearing your thoughts on. No worries. I do read your posts more than most and that is a sincere statement. Sure, it does seem like you have a little double standard with Beltran and Sosa so I did want to navigate that. I really wanted to know if you thought Sosa was a HOFer in your mind.
In previous threads you kinda gave neutral answers on that subject, so I don't honestly know if you feel Sosa was or not. Of course if you said 'NO' Sosa isn't...I would follow up with why not him but why Beltran when Belttran admitted to cheating and that the cheating did indeed provide a competitive advantage...while Sosa did admit to some 'mistakes' etc etc etc....
Anyway, a long discussion I am not interested in. I guess that sums it all up anwya.
I would expect that guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Rodriguez, Palmeiro, Sheff, Ramirez would be inducted. But I give them a pass simply because PED usage was prolific if not pervasive and MLB was counting the eyeballs it was drawing to the sport. But if I say this we are going to have to go through the same old argument for the next 2 weeks until the thread is closed or something again...
if there was an omniscient human being who was willing to write down on a piece of paper the percentage of players in the hall of fame who successfully circumvented the rules of major league baseball in any way, shape or form, i really don't think any of you guys would want to unfold that piece of paper
@galaxy27 said:
i have nothing to add other than this
if there was an omniscient human being who was willing to write down on a piece of paper the percentage of players in the hall of fame who successfully circumvented the rules of major league baseball in any way, shape or form, i really don't think any of you guys would want to unfold that piece of paper
I don't think you could find a piece of paper large enough though
@galaxy27 said:
i have nothing to add other than this
if there was an omniscient human being who was willing to write down on a piece of paper the percentage of players in the hall of fame who successfully circumvented the rules of major league baseball in any way, shape or form, i really don't think any of you guys would want to unfold that piece of paper
cheating has ALWAYS been a part of baseball/sports. check out this quote.
"I've cheated, or someone on my team has cheated, in almost every single game I've been in."
cheating has ALWAYS been a part of baseball/sports. check out this quote.
"I've cheated, or someone on my team has cheated, in almost every single game I've been in."
-baseball hall of famer Rogers Hornsby.
absolutely. and that's why these discussions about who is and who isn't a miscreant is a complete effort in futility. because any athlete at the highest level of competition eventually reaches a point where they search feverishly for an advantage in order to remain at the highest level of competition................advantages that ultimately -- in many, many more cases than not -- have an adverse effect on their integrity
let me give you guys an example. no one has ever implicated Vladimir Guerrero as it pertains to cheating. and the guy typing these words is as big a VD fan as you'll ever find. but i'm not stupid. when he came up with Montreal, he was 165 soaking wet. a raw, 5-tool stud. when he wasn't cheating and his talent shined through, he was ridiculous. a pure freaking hitter who didn't even use gloves. i've seen him golf low fastballs out of the park more times than i care to count.
now let's fast forward to the end of his career when he weighed TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY POUNDS. and we weren't talking about 75 extra pounds of whale blubber, which many middle-aged men can relate to. i'm talking BEEF, which helped him not only prolong his career because he could no longer run due to the concrete he played on at Olympic Stadium for many years, but beef that allowed him to KEEP UP. again, i love the guy, but i'm not an idiot. if you have a favorite player and you follow them for the entirety of their career, any abnormalities will stick out like a sore thumb if you're honest with yourself. and if someone put a gun to my gun to my head and asked if my favorite baseball player of all time cheated, my response would be "ab-so-freakingly-lutely."
and guess what? he's a famer.
seriously, enough with "but this guy cheated and this guy didn't." you have no effing idea.
If youre not cheating youre not trying in sports. Every NFL play can have a hold called if they want to. The HOF would probably be at least 90 percent cheaters.
Theres pitchers who threw spitballs, spidertack etc that are in. The Brett getting thrown out was just stupid. Theres no reason why you would want pine tar on the barrel providing resistance lowering the exit velo on a ball. I guess at the time maybe they thought it helped or he was just sloppy putting it on but it hurt him more than helped.
Without question knowing what pitch is coming is the biggest advantage you can have. Thats called batting practice. While all teams did it the Astros did it to an egregious level.
The point thats being made by several people isnt that cheating should necessarily disqualify you but the inconsistencies in the voting. Whatever stance a voter is going to take should be the same for everyone not picking and choosing who to apply it too which is what is happening
@Basebal21 said:
If youre not cheating youre not trying in sports. Every NFL play can have a hold called if they want to. The HOF would probably be at least 90 percent cheaters.
Theres pitchers who threw spitballs, spidertack etc that are in. The Brett getting thrown out was just stupid. Theres no reason why you would want pine tar on the barrel providing resistance lowering the exit velo on a ball. I guess at the time maybe they thought it helped or he was just sloppy putting it on but it hurt him more than helped.
Without question knowing what pitch is coming is the biggest advantage you can have. Thats called batting practice. While all teams did it the Astros did it to an egregious level.
The point thats being made by several people isnt that cheating should necessarily disqualify you but the inconsistencies in the voting. Whatever stance a voter is going to take should be the same for everyone not picking and choosing who to apply it too which is what is happening
Comments
This is all information that I have. I was questioning how Beltran became the architect of this when I've seen Cora primarily implicated.
Beltran implicated as well as Cora.
Sounds like you are giving Beltran a pass or looking for a way to do so.
The hypocrisy of the voters is evident.
I simply prefer accurate statements. I have Beltran as HOFer.
All I could find was Beltran's name was "mentioned" in the report and that all players were given immunity.
Beltran himself admitted he was involved in the cheating scandal. So it is accurate to say he cheated since he himself said it. MLB investigation said it too.
He cheated. Is cheating good integrity or bad?
Do you have Sammy Sosa as a Hall of Famer?
George Brett as well.
You’re moving a lot of dirt to try to argue against a position that doesn’t think Beltran cheated. I only questioned whether he was designer of the scandal. Good framing job I suppose.
There is no framing there. Simple questions.
Good try with Brett...that wasn't cheating and certainly no advantage at all with an extra inch of pine tar lol. in fact, that pine tar ruling by the umps was over turned by the league and they said what I just said...'it didn't provide a competitive advantage.'
Do you think stealing a pitch sign provides a competitive advantage? Beltran himself said it did and that is why they kept doing it because it was working. So he admitted he cheated and that it provided a competitive advantage.
So, do you have Sammy Sosa as a HOFer??
Pure framing as you attempt to assign a position I do not hold to me so that you can argue that he cheated with someone. You draw lines of cheaters vs not. So I threw you a bone with Brett. Now you want to engage on Sosa. Framing. Get outta here with that.
Change your name from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner.> @bgr said:
No framing. Simple questions.
Perhaps you should change your handle from BGR to Sherwin Williams because you painted yourself into a corner...a corner that you cannot escape without exposing either bias or hypocrisy.
I expected more from a varsity letterman. I leave disappointed. Oh well.
You're being absurd. It could not be more clear what I asked or that you're crafting a position for me. Yet it's all lost in the noise of your multitude of vociferous posts about nothing.
Wasn't being absurd. Was simply asking your thoughts. The questions I was asking were what I was interested in hearing your thoughts on. No worries. I do read your posts more than most and that is a sincere statement. Sure, it does seem like you have a little double standard with Beltran and Sosa so I did want to navigate that. I really wanted to know if you thought Sosa was a HOFer in your mind.
In previous threads you kinda gave neutral answers on that subject, so I don't honestly know if you feel Sosa was or not. Of course if you said 'NO' Sosa isn't...I would follow up with why not him but why Beltran when Belttran admitted to cheating and that the cheating did indeed provide a competitive advantage...while Sosa did admit to some 'mistakes' etc etc etc....
Anyway, a long discussion I am not interested in. I guess that sums it all up anwya.
I think that if Brett is going to be brought up, we should also mention The Babe himself.
remember, Babe used an illegal bat for 40 games during the 1923 season until he was told not to use it any longer.
there was also another illegal bat attributed to Ruth that was used sometime during the 1920-1922 seasons.
was Babe Ruth a cheater?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I think Beltran also took a pencil home that belonged to the MLB team he played for.
Stealing is stealing...............right?
I brought it up for the rule-breaking hard-liners only craig. Tongue fully engaged with cheek.
I would expect that guys like McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Rodriguez, Palmeiro, Sheff, Ramirez would be inducted. But I give them a pass simply because PED usage was prolific if not pervasive and MLB was counting the eyeballs it was drawing to the sport. But if I say this we are going to have to go through the same old argument for the next 2 weeks until the thread is closed or something again...
But you drew it out of my... Good job.
i have nothing to add other than this
if there was an omniscient human being who was willing to write down on a piece of paper the percentage of players in the hall of fame who successfully circumvented the rules of major league baseball in any way, shape or form, i really don't think any of you guys would want to unfold that piece of paper
I don't think you could find a piece of paper large enough though
cheating has ALWAYS been a part of baseball/sports. check out this quote.
"I've cheated, or someone on my team has cheated, in almost every single game I've been in."
-baseball hall of famer Rogers Hornsby.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
absolutely. and that's why these discussions about who is and who isn't a miscreant is a complete effort in futility. because any athlete at the highest level of competition eventually reaches a point where they search feverishly for an advantage in order to remain at the highest level of competition................advantages that ultimately -- in many, many more cases than not -- have an adverse effect on their integrity
let me give you guys an example. no one has ever implicated Vladimir Guerrero as it pertains to cheating. and the guy typing these words is as big a VD fan as you'll ever find. but i'm not stupid. when he came up with Montreal, he was 165 soaking wet. a raw, 5-tool stud. when he wasn't cheating and his talent shined through, he was ridiculous. a pure freaking hitter who didn't even use gloves. i've seen him golf low fastballs out of the park more times than i care to count.
now let's fast forward to the end of his career when he weighed TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY POUNDS. and we weren't talking about 75 extra pounds of whale blubber, which many middle-aged men can relate to. i'm talking BEEF, which helped him not only prolong his career because he could no longer run due to the concrete he played on at Olympic Stadium for many years, but beef that allowed him to KEEP UP. again, i love the guy, but i'm not an idiot. if you have a favorite player and you follow them for the entirety of their career, any abnormalities will stick out like a sore thumb if you're honest with yourself. and if someone put a gun to my gun to my head and asked if my favorite baseball player of all time cheated, my response would be "ab-so-freakingly-lutely."
and guess what? he's a famer.
seriously, enough with "but this guy cheated and this guy didn't." you have no effing idea.
If youre not cheating youre not trying in sports. Every NFL play can have a hold called if they want to. The HOF would probably be at least 90 percent cheaters.
Theres pitchers who threw spitballs, spidertack etc that are in. The Brett getting thrown out was just stupid. Theres no reason why you would want pine tar on the barrel providing resistance lowering the exit velo on a ball. I guess at the time maybe they thought it helped or he was just sloppy putting it on but it hurt him more than helped.
Without question knowing what pitch is coming is the biggest advantage you can have. Thats called batting practice. While all teams did it the Astros did it to an egregious level.
The point thats being made by several people isnt that cheating should necessarily disqualify you but the inconsistencies in the voting. Whatever stance a voter is going to take should be the same for everyone not picking and choosing who to apply it too which is what is happening
Fire AJ Preller
There ya go. Nailed it.