Should a dealer honor an old CC listing?
epc
Posts: 415 ✭✭✭✭✭
Oops. Edited to fix the name of the platform...
While watching the recent gold and silver price increases, I noticed that people seem to be bidding on certified bullion coins, trying to get them at roughly spot. Living in Maryland, I now have to deal with sales tax as part of the equation, making it harder to compete with those in non-tax jurisdictions.
So, I looked on the Collectors Corner as another possibility. I started looking at SAEs, and found several well below current spot. I ordered a dozen, from three dealers. One dealer responded as normal and payment (for 9 of the 12) has been made. The other two have yet to respond regarding those other three coins.
With that 9 (hopefully 12) coin success, I looked at gold offerings as well. I found three 1oz gold Eagles, all NGC MS70, listed by a dealer for $2550 to $2950 each. The listings claimed to be from last week. The dealer has responded that they have to cancel the order because it is old. I can believe that, given the asking prices, and assume that CC listings can be renewed, maybe automatically, such that the dealer can lose track of them to some extent.
What do you think of this situation? Should the dealer be expected to honor the sale?
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Comments
Since the dealer said he'd have to cancel the order, I'd forget about it. I don't think there's any way you can force him to sell the coins if he doesn't want to.
I’ll bet there are all kinds of unclosed old listings on the BST we could find that would look like bargains today.
I don’t think you have any leverage or should have any expectation that old listings would be honored in a fast moving market like we’ve had lately. If you got one guy to do it, good for you.
“Should a dealer honor an old CC listing?”
What are the terms of sale and/or disclaimers on the CC and dealer’s sites?
Edited to add: Even if there are outs for such listings, I wouldn’t try to hold the seller to them.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm looking into that.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Would think the listings are an offer to sell and not an agreed upon contract until buyer and seller agree upon price and other particulars.
The answer is no
No
Come on man
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The dealers that advertise there also go to shows, advertise and sell other places. I no longer pay for anything there until I 'ask a question' - is this item still available?
I tried buying two coins on CC. Both times I was told the item was no longer for sale. I stopped visiting the site after that.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
I hear you. My issue was that with some sales platforms I'm on the hook once I click the purchase button. Backing out of the deal can mean some consequence. Maybe not the end of the world, but not nothing. Is there no consequence for a seller who backs out?
CC is different in that the checkout procedure isn't "finalizing" the transaction. It's sending the purchase request to the dealer. No payment has been made at that point. The dealer responds with payment terms/details (or in this case cancellation).
On the CC site, I couldn't find any statement of the platform's terms and conditions regarding sales they facilitate. I sent them a message asking about it, and am still waiting for a reply.
The site does provide links to statements of the dealers' terms and conditions. But the few I've looked at are pretty basic and non-legalese.
Bottom line - given the nature of the site, I agree that the answer to my original question is "no". And I understand generally that no seller is obligated to deliver the goods until payment is made. But if this happened on the dealer's own website and checkout included payment, would the answer be the same? Or would he/she still be able to cancel and refund the payment?
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
"My issue was that with some sales platforms I'm on the hook once I click the purchase button. Backing out of the deal can mean some consequence."
What sort of consequence?
"Is there no consequence for a seller who backs out?"
What sort of consequence would you like to see enforced?
I had someone on this forum ask about some silver bars that I forgot I had listed as the silver price came up to my asking price.
I honored my sell price and the buyer got 40 ounces of vintage silver under spot...oops.
The price has almost doubled since then.
I have a text from a customer who locked in 3 ounces of silver at $58 three weeks ago. He has my written (texted) word. What to do ? …same difference, kind of. He hasn’t shown up to consummate the deal. Need I honor this agreement ? And at what cost ? Timing is key in this particular circumstance. Now imagine it wasn’t 3 but 300 ounces. ( with bullion related coinage , prices change daily and more recently; hourly.
The answer to me is no, even as I try to see it from both sides. A fair price is a fair price.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
This is a bit more extreme, but recently someone brought up a BST thread I posted in 2010 where I had listed numerous modern, PCGS-graded gold coins for sale and I had listed prices for them. The coins were, of course, long gone and the original thread sank without any replies, if I recall correctly. So, in that thread I simply forgot to delete the items and prices. Well, when someone brought the thread to the top a month or two ago (as a joke) they asked if my prices were still valid and I responded quite tongue in cheek that of course they were!
Wouldn't you know it, a lurker on the boards read the thread and reached out to me with his phone number so we could FaceTime and I could prove I still had the coins because he was interested in buying them at the listed prices. However, he didn't want to be scammed by me, which is why he wanted me to FaceTime him to show him the coins from the listing. I let him down gently.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Only a fool would expect someone to sell them a 1 oz. gold coin for $2550 to $2950 unless it was a scam, fake, or hot.
It is the dealers choice (as owner) whether to honor a listing where the MV has changed upward. I don’t do big ticket material online like that (but at shows).
However I have had that happen on some average ticket material ($100-$200) online sale recently which I just went ahead and honored. After that / I then tightened the process (raising prices in step with the market) so not to be asleep at the wheel.
At shows I am able to make an audible at the line of scrimmage in event price as changed bc I put cost and MV in code on back of holder. My philosophy on that - block other dealers trying under cut me, if public not asking prices means people coming into bourse room likely broke. Bottom line - I want to move my stuff. So if in the green I lean towards moving the item getting cash flow.
Some people came by in a big box store parking lot asking if I wanted a expensive stereo cheap. If its to good to be true.....
If it's a really good customer you might consummate the deal.
If not you say you've had to buy bullion over old sales quotes and will have to adjust to market.
I'll admit to being naive to think that maybe it would work for me (on a presumably reputable platform, and involving dealers known to me to be reputable). I'm not angry. I'm not threatening legal action (that wouldn't go anywhere anyway). I'm not trashing the dealer here. I just asked the question. I got the answer.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Not the best analogy. As in my response to skier07, I've done business on CC before, and have no reason to suspect a problem with the platform. I am familiar with the 9-coin silver dealer and the gold coin dealer in this story. Yes, too good to work out in my favor, but not the same as buying out of a stranger's trunk.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Best to put a deadline on such offers.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Any customer that is trying to take advantage in this situation is not a good customer...
all asset classes are a matter of timing, there will always be people who look to exploit the gap in updating pricing. Is it any different than 2 decades ago when mid-grade Barbers were exploding but many tables still had them in in years old 2x2 flips when they were all but unmovable? I saw several dealers walk the floors every show making their rent that way until they dried up, walkers before that and so on. While gold pricing is more obvious and fluid, that mechanism is the foundation of many dealers whole business model spotting gaps in pricing Vs value the only difference here is if a seller is somehow obligated if not oblivious. As if oblivious is an ethical measure
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Nope.
I would also say no. At the price you've mention it is obviously quite an old listing that hadn't been updated. Gold coin, bullion or pre-33, trade slightly above the spot or higher. Graded for certain. Imagine the situation reversed. Would you take such a high loss?
Based on market volatility, trusting that an offer on bullion with no deadline will be good indefinitely is a recipe for disappointment on the part of the buyer, I'd think. If it was an ounce or two of silver, a seller might decide to absorb a small loss in order to avoid a hassle but nobody is going to sell you an ounce of gold for $2500 when spot is over $4000.
A reasonable buyer should not expect the dealer to fulfill the order in this situation.
In recognition of the issue, a reasonable dealer may offer a slight discount or other offer out of good will.
Common sense should apply to any significant business transaction, it's a business not a charity.
Some people claim you can transact property transfers at the face value of US coins; think of it, it says $50 on 1 oz gold eagles. They could argue you could do a $100K property transaction for face value of $50 gold piece for tax purposes. When the judges see that the defendant gets laughed out of court and fined for wasting the court's time.
As I indicated above, I'm not trying to press the issue.
What do you think about cherry picking in general? Do you expect a customer to point out a low price and then pay a higher one?
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
Where's the loss? The old asking price presumably represented a profit at the time. It's just that the profit would be more now with an up-to-date ask.
Collector of Liberty Seated Half Dimes, including die pairs and die states
OK- not in an absolute sense, rather a relative one.
My opinion is that it is essentially impossible for a small-time retailer to keep up with market prices. I have no problem with a dealer cancelling an order when they find that they had an unrealistic price, as long as that dealer informs me honestly the reason for the cancellation (e.g., a dealer once cancelled an order for a Morgan dollar priced unrealistically low, pretending that the coin was not in their inventory, when, in fact, it was still on their website at a higher price than before; I never did business with that shop again).