Is this Trade Dollar real?
MikeInFL
Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
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MikeInFL
Posts: 10,192 ✭✭✭✭
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My first impression is no, but I know very little about the series.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Thanks Coinbuf. I'm no expert either, but the raised area in the obv. left field is what concerned me.
Not at all an expert on these, but it looks genuine to me. Fingers, leaves, banners, periods, stalks all look normal to me, which is usually a defining factor, so I've read. JMO Don't care for the color at all, but then that's me.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I'm leaning strongly towards counterfeit. A very well done counterfeit though.
@keoj @Crypto @MilkmanDan
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Agree. That raised metal indicates it's fake.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
looks real to me as that would be the best patina I've ever seen on a fake, other markers I look for check out too. The area mentioned on the obv looks like displaced metal meaning that while raised it was dug up from the surface. I grade it EF45
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Can we get a closeup of the raised area? It looks like a genuine coin with damage that displaced and raised the metal in that small area. The dirt and crust may have filled the extent of the damage.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
I think the raised area is a piece of gunk stuck to the coin and not metal.
Looks bogus to me as well 😕
It’s either real or the best fake that I’ve ever seen
What he says.
I make no call of good or bad, but do make the observation that a small bit of "raised something" in a field like that on any coin might be a small planchet lamination that has lifted up from the surface a bit. The coin needs to be examined in hand by somebody who knows what they are doing,
Looks real to me. Might match what I catalogued as C-5. Here is an example.
I'd get it in a holder.
I'm on the sidelines here... if it's a counterfeit, it's a really good one.
Edited to add... I'd like to see better images of that raised area in the obverse field... I can't tell if the metal has been displaced, like a gouge, or if there was another chunk of metal struck through and this is the result?? Odd...
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Im assuming you've already weighed it.
Good question.
How does it react to a magnet slide? (while we are getting the fundamentals out of the way.)
Llamas and alpacas are camels. They aren't like camels, or related. They are camels. When was anyone going to tell me this?! How long had Bill Nye been holding out on us?
It's not my coin, but the owner says it was his grandfather's coin and weighs 27.173g.
See the parallel streak below the raised area? Looks like another very minor lamination.
The weight is right.
If it goes down a magnet slide correctly you know that it is the right material and the right weight.
Llamas and alpacas are camels. They aren't like camels, or related. They are camels. When was anyone going to tell me this?! How long had Bill Nye been holding out on us?
Diameter =38.1mm. The weight is within tolerances...
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1876-s-t-1/7043
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Its real
I read an Appendix in the first edition of Mega Red that discussed counterfeits, specifically of Trade Dollars IIRC.
This appendix talked about how there are different levels of counterfeits coming out of China. The very best of them are good enough to fool most experts, made with the correct composition/weight/diameter, etc.
Of course, the aforementioned appendix was removed by the time the 2nd edition (which I own) came out. Guess they didn't want to scare people off
Long story short, I don't know and definitely wouldn't try to call it based on an online photo. But be very wary. Provenance matters a lot here: if the owner's grandfather bought it 50 years ago and kept it in a safe deposit box the entire time, it's probably legit. If the owner's grandfather bought it on eBay for a great price 8 years ago...well, do I really need to say the rest?
I have liked trade dollars since I found out about them in 8th grade, and I'd be very skeptical about a raw coin. If I'm going to buy one, it's got to be slabbed and certified (or else damaged and cheap enough not to make a difference)
Serving the greater Mechanicsburg and Camp Hill, PA area
https://zenithbullionconsulting.wordpress.com/
No, the best are not good enough to fool the experts. They’re good enough to make the experts look long and hard.
Define expert.
This is obviously a silly example but a cautionary tale for me. I have seen enough fake coins in holders to make me lose confidence judging some coins via pictures.
(I would consider myself advanced, not expert.)
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
An expert is not a person who has looked at 20 trade dollars over the Internet images during their life. It’s somebody that has graded multiple thousands of trade dollars in hand during their lifetime.
That is a reasonable and common sense definition. Also, it probably excludes some graders at TPGs. For example, the "73-CC" I posted above.
chopmarkedtradedollars.com
Yes, certainly these days
Does anyone actually have one of the near expert fooler examples?All the counterfeits I have viewed online here and on ebay have shown faults that when presented made the counterfeit obvious. Not saying I knew what to look for on each and very fake, but I truly take education seriously and the more information I receive the better I enjoy the hobby. Thank you.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Some observations.
Not all counterfeits come from China.
The European counterfeiters were 40+ years ahead of them.
I saw my first “perfect counterfeit” in, IIRC, 1981.
I have had some expert split counterfeits, your point is almost self selecting though. If there is a counterfeit tell no matter how small it becomes obvious when pointed out, If there isn't one well it gets slid to the good pile and not entered into memory.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I saw this coin on Reddit the other day. I think it's real.
Is there a point where a counterfeit is so genuine looking, enough to fool many experts, that it no longer matters if it was a United States mint coin VS another source?
yes the point of transaction
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
The micro O Morgan dollars come to mind.
OP coin looks genuine to me.
Official PCGS account of:
www.TallahasseeCoinClub.com
I wouldn't buy it from the pics, but if TDN thinks it's real, it's a high 90s probability and well worth sending in even if it comes back XF/AU Dets.
Thanks guys.
Happy New Year to all.
This looks real to me. There are a couple of "tells" that I look for. One of them being the small notch at the bottom tip of the Eagle's right wing, etc. One of the of most discriminating distinctions is simply the weight of the coin (hard to assess once on the holder). I have come across many, many counterfeit trade dollars (many more that real ones that have been mucked with,,,,,,like seeing the mintmark removed). There have been three that I recall being difficult to determine. Two were in PCGS holders (and those were returned) and one being raw. All were very, very hard to discern. Weight, general strike quality, rims, etc. were all good. The only tells were some very minute engraving remnants (needed a good scope to see them).
Happy New Year, Keoj
Exactly.
I was using the term "expert" loosely. I think @tradedollarnut stated it better. The best counterfeits are good enough to make actual experts look long and hard.
But, given that fakes can even be found holdered...well, clearly some are able to slip through the cracks. And, to be fair, not every grader can be an expert in every type and every series. Hence my initial comment. Clearly, I was using the word "expert" more loosely than @tradedollarnut
One thing I will say is that the guarantees from the premium grading services are worthwhile - if it's discovered that the slabbed coin you paid for is actually a fake, the TPG will buy it back. That's a useful guarantee IMO!
Also, @CaptHenway: agreed, you'll find counterfeiters wherever someone with shaky ethical compass sees an opportunity for profit. Since the trade dollars were meant for China, and a lot of them were shipped there in the 1870s, Chinese counterfeiters have probably the best opportunity to examine and duplicate genuine pieces. Plus Chinese manufacturing is very advanced; it's easily within the capability and expertise of Chinese plants to turn out fake coins. Combine these facts with the...somewhat lax enforcement of foreign intellectual property laws, and you have a perfect storm.
I still like trade dollars, but it makes me a bit leery of buying them. And, as regards the OP's question, makes me categorically unwilling to render an opinion on whether a given example is genuine. Especially from an online photo. Maybe if I were an expert as defined earlier by tradedollarnut, my confidence would be higher. But I've really only ever seen a handful in my entire life, so that definitely disqualifies me
Serving the greater Mechanicsburg and Camp Hill, PA area
https://zenithbullionconsulting.wordpress.com/