Are autographed slabs a plus or a minus? 2000-P Cheerios Dollars
CaptHenway
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Is there some reason why an auction house should remove an autograph from the slab of a coin consigned to it?
Over many years, Collector Dennis Smith assembled the finest known collection of Cheerios Dollars and Cheerios-related Sacagawea Dollars and Cents. Because of my well-known interest in the Cheerios Dollars, having first written about the design variation in 2000, we naturally corresponded about them over the years.
One day he happened to mention that he had two circulated Cheerio Dollars in for slabbing at ANACS. I had always wanted to see a circulated piece, and since I already had an appointment to consult with the two senior Authenticators there about my 1922 Cent book, I asked him to arrange to have the coins held until I got there. He agreed, and asked me if I would mind autographing the two slabs while I was doing it. I was glad to, and after studying the coins signed their slabs. I also autographed two Mint State coins. After signing them I took a few pictures on my phone for posterity.
Earlier this year Dennis consigned much of his collection to Stacks-Bowers Galleries for sale. On his consignment sheet he specifically noted that the slabs for those four coins were autographed. He fully expected that the autographs would add some value to the lots. Naturally I was curious to see if they did.
When the coins appeared at auction, all of the autographs had been removed from the slabs. A few pictures, beginning with mine.
Auction pictures.
More of my pictures.
More auction pictures.
What am I missing here? Did my autographs lower the value of the coins somehow? If so, I would like somebody to explain it to me.
Tom DeLorey
Comments
That sucks!!! Let the buyer decide if they want the autographs. The new owner could always remove it if they don't want it there. Maybe Stacks is not educated on the history and discovery of the Cheerios Dollar.
That should be the sellers concern or at least bring it up to them, jmo
I wonder if SB has someone who either cleans all the slabs or inspects them and cleans the one that need it. If so, I would guess this was a mistake. I don't see how your signature could do anything but raise the sell price.
I wonder if anybody on here owns one of these four lots.
Maybe Stacks is not educated on the history and discovery of the Cheerios Dollar.
This is exactly what I was thinking...
Seller here. I specifically informed SB of the importance of the signatures. I think the problem was a serious lack of communication between the consigning agent and those that prepare the coins for auction. I specifically requested the coins be sold as rarities and was told that SB would auction the coins how they thought they would bring the best prices. The consignment agreement allows SB to do whatever they want. I personally feel the ignorance of those preparing the coins for photographs is the reason the signatures were removed. I also feel the fact, Cheerios Dollars are sleepers and now command very little attention at SB. Of course, I am prejudice. Bottom line, I regret selling a great collection. As we Baby Boomers age, we must pass on a lot of valuable stuff or sell it to spare our kids the pain of disposal. Not a single child or grandchild expressed interest in the coins so I sold out. My son said it best, “Cash is King.”
Some of my below may have already been addressed by dennis5151
Tom-
You obviously have the professional numismatic credentials to have something like this respected and accepted.
Those autographed slabs in my opinion, would absolutely add more value!
"The autographs had been removed from the slabs?!&?%!?^#!?" Say what??? They altered the slabs, after Dennis submitted them?? I'm a pretty nice guy but if that had happened to me???.....I would be jumping in someones desk at Stacks!!!... And maybe followed by some civil action!
To play devil's advocate... Did Stacks attempt to contact or notify Dennis about the removal of the autographs in advance of the listing?? As soon as Dennis notice the autographs were missing from the slabs at auction, I would have contacted Stacks and pulled the listings!
It may also be a liability thing for Stacks. (which might very well be stated somewhere in the small print of the Stacks consignment submission form) Anyone could falsify a signature. How would Stacks know it was actually your signature?.... Without a signed, notarized affidavit being submitted with the slabs and the cert numbers listed in the affidavit, Stacks may not have been obligated to list the slabs with the autographs.
Either way, I don't believe Stacks should have altered or modified those slabs without notifying Dennis. I recently went thru the same thing with the guy that found the first Elongated Ray that you attribution, ANACS First Reported Example.
It's probably to late now but it would have been fantastic to have your autograph on the labels of those Cheerios Dollars!!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Maybe whoever the buyers will be, they could send these back to Tom to be re-autographed? That would be an awesome gesture!
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Not a good look for Stacks, given that the seller had explicitly asked for them to remain.
Having the contractual language of "we will do what we want", is one that would push me away from them when seeing something like that happen.
How would someone feel if it was in an old holder and was cracked/resubmitted because SB thought it MIGHT upgrade, or to get rid of scratches on the holder, and lost out on bidders that wanted the holder?
To answer the OP's question...very few autographs on a slab would mean anything to me, if I am buying. However, if it were MY slab and I got the autograph from someone myself, it would have more meaning.
If I were bidding....nothing would be added to my bid (unless it was a George Washington type of autograph)
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Reminds me of the thread about GC removing non-CAC stickers from slabs. They got a lot of heat for that too.
I think it would be a minus for me. I am not a collector of autographs.
Tell you what I'm going to do! For these four coins only, I will autograph the original ANACS slabs (offer void if reholdered) for a check for return postage via the manner that the owner specifies, plus a separate check for $50 made payable to the MARCH OF DIMES. Way too many years ago, when they were still concerned with the prevention of and treatment of POLIO, they paid for the operation that allowed me to walk without a brace. I will forward the check to them. If you wish to avoid getting on their mailing list, send me a $50 bill with the coin and I will send them $50 via Paypal.
If for whatever reason you do not wish to donate to the MARCH OF DIMES, make the check payable to WORLD CENTRAL KITCHEN. Same cash option.
TD
Not that it matters now, just curious. Did you sign the slabs with a permanent marker pen? Stacks seems to have removed your signature without damaging the slabs. If it was a permanent marker pen, I'm wondering how they removed it without damaging the slabs?
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Captain! Captain! You are a supercool Captain!
@OAKSTAR , removing permanent marker off a slab is easy if you use a dry erase marker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djUsfZdRQJs
That works for me, thanks!
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Seller here.
For the curious, I informed Stacks of the signatures and provided them with Tom's phone number (with his permission). I read the consignment agreement. Of course, it is written by experienced attorneys who have seen it all. I did not see a withdrawal clause. Being an optimist, I say a lesson earned saves a lot of future dollars. I have invested in opportunities all my life, I guess I am too busy looking for the next one to be tied up fighting attorneys.
Way to go CaptHenway! I am looking forward to purchasing an autographed copy of your 1922 Cent Book.
With the Captain's permission, that signature would be easy to duplicate without the hassle of sending two-way for it. Of course the Captain would need to grant his approval first.
What in the world would be the purpose of forging his signature even if he gave his permission? 🤔
Autographed slab labels are neutral, as far as I'm concerned. Neither a plus nor a minus, for me.
Sharpie ink directly on the slab, though? No thanks!
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
I agree. With all due respect to Tom, whom I respect completely, the signature on the plastic is off putting to me. In fact, it’s not even a signature.
I’d rather have a paper certificate, though I’m not sure what value it would add.
Someone who handled these slabs at the auction company probably didn't realize that it was signed by a world famous numismatist. They probably just thought some prior owner put his name on it and cleaned it up by removing the graffiti so the new owner didn't have to.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It would save the potential of the coin(s) getting lost or stolen during transport to and from the signing source.
A coin dealer buddy had a few of these signed by the artist:
In the course of gently cleaning the slab (Windex and a cloth towel) he removed all or most the of the signatures. It wasn't difficult to take a magic marker and 'replace' the missing or complete signature. He thought the signatures did in this case add value.
You obviously have no interest or knowledge about collecting autographs. A facsimile signed by someone else is of no value or significance.
Those autographs did in fact add value, and it was reckless to clean them in that way. To enhance or recreate them is outright fraud unless fully disclosed to potential buyers. It's no different (or maybe worse) than doctoring a coin.
Once again, the only thing that makes an autograph potentially significant is originality/authenticity.
Alright. Good to know.
Here is a link to all the signed Goodacre coins:
http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/add004.html
The exact ANACS MS68 imaged above with wiped off autograph is available on fleabay for $8,800
Happy Shopping !
https://www.ebay.com/itm/157501693669
And another CHEERIO MS68 in PCGS for a cool $25,000 OBO.
Tom DeLorey autograph not included:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/145368638426
Good
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Wonder if any slabs have been autographed with a vibration marker? Peace Roy
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I would probably steer away from signed slabbed. Takes away from the coin. Signed labels are ok with me.
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I repeat my offer to re-sign it. See above for details.
>
If you ever see a George Washington autograph on a slab, make sure the coin is dated 1799 or earlier.
I'm willing to get a later dated coin with Abe Lincoln's John Hancock on it
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Alcohol will remove permanent marker. I wouldn't use acetone.
I have no comment on SB. I think is already been said.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
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