Numismatic knowledge, real or not

tonedcoinlover

Having been around this "hobby" for over 50 years I have come to the following conclusions:

1.) Many collectors have not learned to grade coins. I learned via Brown & Dunn, Photo grade and handling many raw coins.

2.) Then came the "event" called "certified". Now one only has to read the label to know the grade right? Must be so as someone has said it to be so.

3.) Well then along came CAC. Now we look only for the sticker to verify the "grade". Ops, what if it is gold?

4,) What is next? Computer grading (tried that one). Create another grading service? Another sticker? Another "opinion"? Why not start your own with your standards. Simple right?

WHAT ABOUT KNOWLEDGE! READ THE BOOK BEFORE YOU BUY THE COIN!

My question in this is simply this.... have we forgone knowledge and in it's place only read or look for stickers? It seems to me that the coin is lost in all of this. I understand that this "hobby" is an "industry" that invites opportunity to make money off of the uneducated.

I do not think most collectors do not make the investment of time and education that those of us "old" guys have and rely only on "third party" OPINIONS!

I may be "singing to the choir".

This old time collector and lover of numismatics is quite sadden with the progression or regression of this wonderful hobby.

jmlanzaf

I largely disagree. Yes, people should learn as much as they can. However, TPGS's have made it possible for casual collectors to safely pursue the hobby. That is a good thing.

tonedcoinlover

@jmlanzaf said:
I largely disagree. Yes, people should learn as much as they can. However, TPGS's have made it possible for casual collectors to safely pursue the hobby. That is a good thing.

To that point I agree.

I just feel that the collecting public is being "told" what the grade is. Perhaps our agreement or disagreement rests in if we buy the coin in belief of the grade or knowledge of the grade.

We have seen that standards do change.

Walkerfan

If you’re serious about collecting, you will eventually learn to grade for yourself. When you specialize in a series and spend years looking at thousands of examples, you learn the nuances, whether you intend to or not. I think that people who rely solely on stickers and slabs are beginners/novices. If that makes them feel safe, well then, I guess it’s a good thing. But, us veterans can’t help but learn as we go along.

gtstang

Knowledge should be very important within this hobby.
Every single grading service and grading sticker service gets it wrong from time to time.

The grading services have updated and changed grading guarantees over the years and no longer mean as much as they once did.
Gradeflation is real and expensive copper can be a risky investment.

renomedphys

Like is more important than grade (drops mic)

RedRocket

Coin collectors are like California drivers: Each think they drive (collect/grade) better than the average.

jmlanzaf

@tonedcoinlover said:

@jmlanzaf said:
I largely disagree. Yes, people should learn as much as they can. However, TPGS's have made it possible for casual collectors to safely pursue the hobby. That is a good thing.

To that point I agree.

I just feel that the collecting public is being "told" what the grade is. Perhaps our agreement or disagreement rests in if we buy the coin in belief of the grade or knowledge of the grade.

We have seen that standards do change.

Sure. But if you cling to a 1980s grading scheme in the 2020s, that's likely as harmful as embracing the label/ sticker.

Labels and stickers are not the enemy. They also don't, of themselves, create ignorance or limited knowledge. I've watched plenty of people buy raw coins, even expensive ones, that are cleaned, damaged, or fake.

yspsales

I think access and consistency are vital.

Without a steady supply the grading skills are a tough hurdle to clear.

The_Dinosaur_Man

I'm of the point of view that encapsulation is a hindrance for some getting involved in the hobby and also takes away from raw experience. I was fortunate to have worked under a dealer with over 40 years of experience and enough inventory to make the shop sink into the ground, but I also understand not everyone gets that same opportunity. Slabbing, to me, is entombing the coin, and particularly pointless for XF or less if it isn't a key date or highly counterfeited item.

seatedlib3991

I couldn't be more opposite if I tried. The third party grading services saved this hobby from itself. If things had NOT changed I would never have spent 5% of what I have spent. Nor would I have collected things such as Seated coins. I had to wait until the third party grading services began before I would even consider it.
First, the most important thing TPG companys do is prove it is the real deal. They make sure it is authentic and that looms above all else they provide.
Second, they offer an opinion on grade. This gives the individual the opportunity to accept or reject that grade. What is more, many collectors LEARN to grade from TPG coins. You get to see what a coin in a specific grade should look like.
Third. How many times have you seen someone on this very board talk about how much they learned from sending in coins for a sticker? I know it happens almost every week. Why? It happens because the individual is getting the opportunity to see what highly regarded graders think of their coins. AGAIN a learning opportunity.
Today we have the ability to SEE the coins before we buy them. We get to SEE what professionials in the business would grade them. We can build skills for ourselves that let us collect at a far more advanced stage then was ever possible before. james

291fifth

Just think of how much money is being made on "opinions" of grade these days.

jmlanzaf

@The_Dinosaur_Man said:
I'm of the point of view that encapsulation is a hindrance for some getting involved in the hobby and also takes away from raw experience. I was fortunate to have worked under a dealer with over 40 years of experience and enough inventory to make the shop sink into the ground, but I also understand not everyone gets that same opportunity. Slabbing, to me, is entombing the coin, and particularly pointless for XF or less if it isn't a key date or highly counterfeited item.

The majority of coins are raw. Let's not become prisoners to an artificial dichotomy.

The majority of collections have NO slabs or very few. It is very easy to free the coin from the tomb. There is a spectrum of collectors with a spectrum of collecting options.

seatedlib3991

@291fifth . life is nothing but an endless set of choices and chances. I have no problem with anyone making a profit from their work and experience. Did the same thing myself; just in a different field of business. Profites are EARNED not given usually. James

jmlanzaf

@seatedlib3991 said:
@291fifth . life is nothing but an endless set of choices and chances. I have no problem with anyone making a profit from their work and experience. Did the same thing myself; just in a different field of business. Profites are EARNED not given usually. James

And think of how many profits were made in the "good old days" by people who bought raw coins as VF and then sold them as XF.

Slabs have actually made it HARDER on dealers to make money on grade disparities, not easier.

I knew a dealer, now passed, who hated the internet because it made it easy for people to close the knowledge gap. Slabs are similar. It takes time and effort for an amateur to tell the difference between a slider AU and an actual UNC coin, and 65/66? Forget about it. It takes little effort or time too learn to read the slab.

dipset512

@Walkerfan said:
If you’re serious about collecting, you will eventually learn to grade for yourself. When you specialize in a series and spend years looking at thousands of examples, you learn the nuances, whether you intend to or not. I think that people who rely solely on stickers and slabs are beginners/novices. If that makes them feel safe, well then, I guess it’s a good thing. But, us veterans can’t help but learn as we go along.

I disagree with rely solely on stickers and slabs are beginners. You can have a nicer looking coin in say an MS-67 that pops much better than an MS-68 w/CAC and which one will go for more and have more eyes on it? I can only speculate this is due to the collectors who compete in registry sets.

291fifth

All grading is "opinions" and always has been. A large percentage of collectors simply can't grade. There is nothing new about this. Money has always been made by buying at one grade and trying to sell at another. The crackout game is just a modern version of the same.

Peasantry

@seatedlib3991 said:
I couldn't be more opposite if I tried. The third party grading services saved this hobby from itself. If things had NOT changed I would never have spent 5% of what I have spent. Nor would I have collected things such as Seated coins. I had to wait until the third party grading services began before I would even consider it.
First, the most important thing TPG companys do is prove it is the real deal. They make sure it is authentic and that looms above all else they provide.
Second, they offer an opinion on grade. This gives the individual the opportunity to accept or reject that grade. What is more, many collectors LEARN to grade from TPG coins. You get to see what a coin in a specific grade should look like.
Third. How many times have you seen someone on this very board talk about how much they learned from sending in coins for a sticker? I know it happens almost every week. Why? It happens because the individual is getting the opportunity to see what highly regarded graders think of their coins. AGAIN a learning opportunity.
Today we have the ability to SEE the coins before we buy them. We get to SEE what professionials in the business would grade them. We can build skills for ourselves that let us collect at a far more advanced stage then was ever possible before. james

@tonedcoinlover I'm curious what your thoughts are on Seatedlib3991's comment. Seems tough to unseat his logic.

Your lament might need some refinement.

numis1652

Grading, grading, grading ! This numismatic hobby of ours involves ALOT more than knowing how to grade ! It involves history, knowledge of real rarity, knowing which series has a “ future “ and which series is overhyped and unlikely to be appreciated in the future.

I knew John J Ford, Jr. well. He was a mentor. Despite his overbearing personality ( sort of like someone currently in the news ) , JJF was very knowledgable and readily admitted his hobby success - he was not a wealthy man in terms of available $ funds - was due to his knowledge and instinct above 99% of other collectors. John’s mentors were Wayte Raymond and Fred CC Boyd, the two foremost & knowledgable dealers / collectors of the first half of the 20th century. John ended up acquiring their political & exonumia collns intact - but that’s another story.

So grading is not the most important aspect of the hobby. I’ve only to point out the enormous difference between EAC grading of early copper ( developed and basically unchanged decades ago ) and the several grade higher slab grades of the same coins. Or the flattening out of the high relief of many medals when slabbed. Knowledge is King.

Aaron Feldman, another mentor, created the expression “ Buy the book before the coin” and that was as true today as it was almost 75 yrs ago. Today, you don’t need the book. Just study the superb narratives found in StacksBowers catalogues by the likes of John Kraljevich and John Pack, both of whom are collectors / dealers. I’ve always believed that you cannot be a successful dealer unless you are also a collector in the same field.

qrt

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shortnock

Beware of the dogma. (Use this three times, and it's yours.)