Tiny die rings are a thing

Kurisu

I only vaguely remember reading about them on error-ref and then never gave them a second thought.
https://www.error-ref.com/die-rings-tiny-rings-semicircles-crescents-and-spirals/
It was probably one of you here in this forum who demanded I read the entire error-ref website some time ago lol.

Couldn't find any threads in the forum here about them. Just thought it was a somewhat interesting little mystery.

It came up because there was a reddit post on them this morning...and within 2 hours of posting it the OP was suspended/banned from reddit lol...possibly in part due to a somewhat offensive username, but the post remains...
https://www.reddit.com/r/coinerrors/comments/1p75nju/a_stunning_die_ring_another_unresolved_anomaly/

This is the text and images in the post.
Figured it would be fine to "borrow" it all since the OP is no more...

**A few months back I got ahold of NGC by phone and asked about having the word Die Ring placed on the label and if they would do so. The woman was kind and helpful. She said that she would talk to the grading team, and to go ahead and send her an email with photos of the anomaly for her to share with said team. (As far as I know no grading service has yet to attribute die rings, and this may be because they are not yet resolved. Yet, as is evident from my photos, I have an exceptional specimen on a clean, high grade MS coin; and thus, would REALLY love to be the first to get the anomaly attributed.)

So I sent the email with the above images attached.
After a few days I received a reply that stated she cannot say whether or not the words DIE RING could be placed on the label but to go ahead and send it in.
I've already been a member for awhile and know the process of sending in coins.

My questions are:
do you think they will make the die ring attribute? Why or why not.

I am not concerned with resale at all as this is not for sale, attributed or not; but what kind of price would/could be placed on die rings as a whole, considering they are much more rare than doubled dies and plenty of other errors? (Which doesn't always mean much)

I read somewhere that Jason Cuviler and Mike Diamond were tring to create a website specifically dedicated to the indexing of Die Rings and Die Spirals. Does anybody know if that ever went anywhere?

Cheers, and Happy early Thanksgiving.**

OAKSTAR

Have always been interested in these types of anomalies.

D808LF

*earrings

Bikergeek

1830 Obverse #3 in the Capped Bust half dimes has what authors Logan and McCloskey call a "prominent center dot" (in an obverse they primarily describe as "dotted date" due to the little dot right before the serif of the 1 in 1830). That obverse was used in die marriages LM-6 (image below, from PCGS but not my coin) and LM-8.

Some of OP's images above are small portions of the coins... but my question would be, are all those "mysterious" die rings in the exact center? If that's the case, it seems reasonable to believe this is an artifact of a lathe or cutting process on the die. I'm speculating, and would be interested in hearing from folks conversant with hub- and die-making.

TomB

As @Bikergeek has mentioned, some classic coins have center dots. I believe there are several cents and half cents with this feature as well as at least one die pair of 1838 (if I recall correctly) RE half dollar with a prominent reverse die dot.

Mr_Spud

???

JBK

I don't want to hijack this thread but doesn't anyone else see a possible correlation between these anomolies and the extra leaf varieties on the Wisconsin state quarters?

DCarr has given theory for those that might also apply here.

johnny9434

Could it be some possible engineering thing? Or just a plain anomaly (design thing)

PerryHall

I've seen these tiny rings and raised pimples on many coins and they are particularly prevalent on early US coins. They are always in the exact geometric center of the coin which indicates to me they are from the point of a compass used to layout the stars and/or lettering in a circular pattern around the periphery of the coin. They may be from the plaster model and then transferred to the master die and then to the actual die itself. Since these rings and raised pimples are on the die, they will show up on every coin struck by that die.

Kurisu

@JBK said:
I don't want to hijack this thread but doesn't anyone else see a possible correlation between these anomolies and the extra leaf varieties on the Wisconsin state quarters?

DCarr has given theory for those that might also apply here.

Maybe Dan has some interesting thoughts about these? @dcarr

oih82w8

I read somewhere that the raised dots were punchmarks to determine die hardness. I had a 1921-D Morgan with a prominent raised dot for a variety.

1921-D $1 VAM 3A Wing Dot

jesbroken

@TomB said:
As @Bikergeek has mentioned, some classic coins have center dots. I believe there are several cents and half cents with this feature as well as at least one die pair of 1838 (if I recall correctly) RE half dollar with a prominent reverse die dot.

1837 R.E. Half Rev Dot.
Jim

Kurisu

Am I seeing that some of these are obtuse and some are incuse?
Or is it just the photo optical illusion thing?
Also seeing dots/punches as opposed to a ring.

The quarter I posted from the reddit post the ring looks raised.
The 1830 half dime ring from @Bikergeek looks incuse.
The 1821 10c dot from @Mr_Spud looks raised.
The 1837 50c dot from @jesbroken looks incuse.

Mr_Spud

Yes, mine is definately raised, which matches the compass point thing mentioned above. Not really tiny rings like the OPs, and always in the exact center of the coin

Coins3675

Its an earring

Bikergeek

@Kurisu said:
Am I seeing that some of these are obtuse and some are incuse?

I vote that we use the nomenclature "innies" and "outies."

MedalCollector

If you look at a modern, blank die, the surface is coned and the apex may or may not be fully obliterated during the hubbing process. I wonder if some of these circles, at least in the center, are caused this way.