Denver Coins

Liquidated

Casually looking through eBay and this Flowing Hair half caught my eye. Opened the listing and realized the “Choice F+ from original collection” was in fact cracked from my submission that ended 13 days ago with Great Collections. Coin was received, cracked and offered in less than 7 days.

Denvers Coins photos look much better than what this did in hand. At least scratch not hidden.

Coin was not from an original collection obviously.

Liquidated

P0CKETCHANGE

I’m not a fan of their business model, but don’t see anything wrong with it except that the seller knowingly misrepresents the coin as “from original collection” (whatever that means).

MFeld

Another eBay seller with 100% feedback, despite their practices.

johnny9434

Its sad to see stuff like that 😔

MFeld

@P0CKETCHANGE said:
I’m not a fan of their business model, but don’t see anything wrong with it except that the seller knowingly misrepresents the coin as “from original collection” (whatever that means).

To me, such misrepresentations, combined with cracking out detail-grade coins and reselling them as “choice” problem- free examples makes for a lot “wrong”.

P0CKETCHANGE

@MFeld said:
To me, such misrepresentations, combined with cracking out detail-grade coins and reselling them as “choice” problem- free examples makes for a lot “wrong”.

I agree that any intentional misrepresentation is wrong, but not the model itself of cracking and reselling as raw.

lermish

They are a terrible company in MANY ways...but for the term "From An Original Collection" by itself (outside of all of the other BS), I view it as puffery and a buyer beware situation. Similar to "Fresh To Market".

What is an "original collection"? Is my collection original? There's no real definition so it can't be wrong...it just feels really cruddy in context of all the other shady things they do.

Liquidated

“Bluechip Example”

Wow. Looking at other items. Looks like an AT trial piece. How are collectors accepting this stuff still after 30 years now?

JBK

Why would anyone buy a coin like this raw, from a dealer, no less, in this day and age. Unless it was coming out of a legitimate estate or somewhere else where coin grading has not reached, being raw is a huge red flag, to put it mildly.

The "original collection" label is really just annoying puffery which can't really be defined so it's hard to adequately quantify the level of the deception.

LeeBone

Also looks like an auction, what’s the chance that there will be any shill bids?

( 💯% guaranteed IMO )

skier07

I don’t know if what they’re doing is illegal but I do know that they’re behavior is unethical and they have serious character flaw issues.

MFeld

@JBK said:
Why would anyone buy a coin like this raw, from a dealer, no less, in this day and age. Unless it was coming out of a legitimate estate or somewhere else where coin grading has not reached, being raw is a huge red flag, to put it mildly.

The "original collection" label is really just annoying puffery which can't really be defined so it's hard to adequately quantify the level of the deception.

And what of the description of the coin?

cheezhed

On top of all that the "details" has been omitted from the listing. Even though the scratch is pictured the coin is being sold as problem free.

Liquidated

Looked at sellers past items for a few easily recognizable items and then checked great collections.

These people are making a killing.

Liquidated

Maybe Great Collections could rename the check box for Ungraded/Details as Denver Coins

giantsfan20

The seller is taking a loss of $1074for cracking the coin out of holder. What kind of business model is that. What was the second highest bid,perhaps a good buy to purchase and submit to be graded again?

Liquidated

@giantsfan20 said:
The seller is taking a loss of $1074for cracking the coin out of holder. What kind of business model is that. What was the second highest bid,perhaps a good buy to purchase and submit to be graded again?

You are mistaken. No loss taken. If comparing the FH prices auction has not ended yet.

yosclimber

The business model of "crack Details" and sell raw on ebay, with support from your own shill bids is as old as the hills - has been happening for decades.
If it sells to your own shill bid, then it gets "returned" and it gets relisted, so you really don't know if they are "making a killing", as those sold prices could be shills.

Liquidated

@yosclimber said:
The business model of "crack Details" and sell raw on ebay, with support from your own shill bids is as old as the hills - has been happening for decades.
If it sells to your own shill bid, then it gets "returned" and it gets relisted, so you really don't know if they are "making a killing", as those sold prices could be shills.

311 current auctions and enormous number of past listings for your viewing pleasure all at impressive prices.

You made the assumption of shill bids and possibility that coins did not actually sell?

Take a look at the number of sold listings and realize even if shill bid was high on a few that there so many more that change hands.

I stand by my “making a killing” statement. Does not legitimize the company, but it is what it is.

breakdown

A solid refund policy leads to high ratings despite the misleading nature of the listings. Such tactics are a real blight on the hobby because so many collectors enter through EBay. Some realized they have been burned,assume the field is full of fraud, leave and never return.

A dirty little secret is how much these sellers prop up the value of details coins that have no chance of getting into straight holders. Ever wonder who is buying a Details AU coin for XF price?

Liquidated

Anyone figure out the relationship of 1ebykat to DenverCoins?

skier07

Karma is a beech.

MsMorrisine

this has been the mo for years. not new news

Liquidated

@MsMorrisine said:
this has been the mo for years. not new news

True on DenverCoins but when search for 1ebykat this thread only result now posted, so yeah….1ebykat Is kinda new news.

1ebykat Is CA and other obviously CO.

Same back ground, same 3rd “hoard” image, description fluff

jacrispies

@Liquidated 1ebykat purchased from Denver Coins and relisted them identically. That is why they are the same. Here is an example.

Denver Coins Sale:

And new ebay listing by 1ebykat:

Alpha2814

Remember when Coca-Cola Classic returned with "original formula" on the cans, after the failure of New Coke? It was an original formula, not the original formula. Same concept applies here, and pretty much everywhere else.

johnny9434

@Alpha2814 said:
Remember when Coca-Cola Classic returned with "original formula" on the cans, after the failure of New Coke? It was an original formula, not the original formula. Same concept applies here, and pretty much everywhere else.

That's a debacle that should never have happened

Morgan13

I almost fell for their marketing practices but thanks to this forum I was able to avoid another burn job.
Again education is the key if your going to pour recreational money into this hobby.
I sift through hundreds of coins before I buy and even then I hesitate.
Ive used return policies multiple times.
Sometimes with the help of ebay when the seller has a "no return policy" that doesn't fly with me. In my mind there is no such thing as a no return policy.

Liquidated

@jacrispies said:
@Liquidated 1ebykat purchased from Denver Coins and relisted them identically. That is why they are the same. Here is an example.

Denver Coins Sale:

And new ebay listing by 1ebykat:

1ebykat has 400 listings mirrored that at DenverCoins. They are not buying from DenverCoins

jacrispies

@Liquidated said:

@jacrispies said:
@Liquidated 1ebykat purchased from Denver Coins and relisted them identically. That is why they are the same. Here is an example.

Denver Coins Sale:

And new ebay listing by 1ebykat:

1ebykat has 400 listings mirrored that at DenverCoins. They are not buying from DenverCoins

I contacted 1ebykat and they do by their own admission purchase from Denver Coins, as well as other major ebay dealers. They copy/paste the same listing details from their purchase to their new listing. That is, after raising their price multiples as noted above. All Denver style listings that are currently active on 1ebykat's store have been previously sold by Denver Coins, confirmed by worthpoint to see the expired sold listings.

Tramp

I guess I wasn't aware you could return a coin where it was all auction; BN yes, but not an auction. Does the seller eat the auction fees or is there a restocking fee?> @jacrispies said:

@Liquidated said:

@jacrispies said:
@Liquidated 1ebykat purchased from Denver Coins and relisted them identically. That is why they are the same. Here is an example.

Denver Coins Sale:

And new ebay listing by 1ebykat:

1ebykat has 400 listings mirrored that at DenverCoins. They are not buying from DenverCoins

I contacted 1ebykat and they do by their own admission purchase from Denver Coins, as well as other major ebay dealers. They copy/paste the same listing details from their purchase to their new listing. That is, after raising their price multiples as noted above. All Denver style listings that are currently active on 1ebykat's store have been previously sold by Denver Coins, confirmed by worthpoint to see the expired sold listings.

This would appear to eliminate the need for inventory with little risk. If coin sells then they purchase the coin from Denver Coin or the origin. I'm sure they require twice the time for delivery too than from the origin.

Some of the examples provided whether purchased from GC, HA or other sellers, it appears Denver Coin and others are making a handsome return using this process. Capitalism appears to be thriving. It's unfortunate the buyers are so clueless leaving them with less funds for other purchases.

jacrispies

@Tramp said:
I guess I wasn't aware you could return a coin where it was all auction; BN yes, but not an auction. Does the seller eat the auction fees or is there a restocking fee?> @jacrispies said:

@Liquidated said:

@jacrispies said:
@Liquidated 1ebykat purchased from Denver Coins and relisted them identically. That is why they are the same. Here is an example.

Denver Coins Sale:

And new ebay listing by 1ebykat:

1ebykat has 400 listings mirrored that at DenverCoins. They are not buying from DenverCoins

I contacted 1ebykat and they do by their own admission purchase from Denver Coins, as well as other major ebay dealers. They copy/paste the same listing details from their purchase to their new listing. That is, after raising their price multiples as noted above. All Denver style listings that are currently active on 1ebykat's store have been previously sold by Denver Coins, confirmed by worthpoint to see the expired sold listings.

This would appear to eliminate the need for inventory with little risk. If coin sells then they purchase the coin from Denver Coin or the origin. I'm sure they require twice the time for delivery too than from the origin.

Some of the examples provided whether purchased from GC, HA or other sellers, it appears Denver Coin and others are making a handsome return using this process. Capitalism appears to be thriving. It's unfortunate the buyers are so clueless leaving them with less funds for other purchases.

If an item is returned on Ebay, the ebay fees are redacted and everyone is paid out. The only cost is shipping from whoever pays, the buyer or seller.

1ebykat outright purchases the coins from Denver Coins, and while the coin is in their possession. They do not broker the sale as you seemed to interpret. Here is proof they handle the coin. They have listed the Denver Coins original photos, with additional in-hand photos. The in-hand photos were added after a customer was displeased and asked for a return by 1ebykay.

jmlanzaf

@Morgan13 said:
I almost fell for their marketing practices but thanks to this forum I was able to avoid another burn job.
Again education is the key if your going to pour recreational money into this hobby.
I sift through hundreds of coins before I buy and even then I hesitate.
Ive used return policies multiple times.
Sometimes with the help of ebay when the seller has a "no return policy" that doesn't fly with me. In my mind there is no such thing as a no return policy.

Yeah, we know.

dcarr

Is 1ebykat a shill bidder of DenverCoins ?

scotty1419

Original coin sold GC $2124 and resold on ebay $1527?

Acarroll

@P0CKETCHANGE said:

@MFeld said:
To me, such misrepresentations, combined with cracking out detail-grade coins and reselling them as “choice” problem- free examples makes for a lot “wrong”.

I agree that any intentional misrepresentation is wrong, but not the model itself of cracking and reselling as raw.

It's grimy when it's problem coins