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More On The Restrike 1804 Dollars

RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭
edited November 9, 2025 12:02PM in U.S. Coin Forum

John Dannreuther and I recently completed a study of the Class II and III Restrike 1804 dollars. Briefly, characteristics common to all of the restrikes show that they were all struck at the same time and historical documents support the striking as being sometime between late 1859 and early summer of 1860.

The characteristics allowed us to create the first emission sequence for Restrike 1804 dollars and that sequence shows that not only was the James A. Stack, Sr. Class III piece he first struck, but also that most of the Class III pieces were struck PRIOR to the lone surviving Class II coin. In fact, only the Linderman Class III piece is in a later die state than the lone Class II. This is, of course, completely the opposite of what many have previously proposed.

For those interested in our findings, Stacks Bowers will be printing our monograph in the auction catalog. For those who do not get a copy of the catalog, we will be re-publishing the article later next year in the numismatic press.

[edited for typo, thanks Mark)

Comments

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,630 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    Tom, You'll like the article. It debunks a lot of ancient myth - like the Class IIIs not appearing until the 1870s. Historical docs show they first appeared in late1863 or very early 1864.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,630 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are you completely discounting the possibility that they first appeared in the back rooms of Philadelphia coin shops in late 1859 or early 1860 before being clawed back? I like to think that it could have happened. As Captain Renault said to Richard Blaine in “Casablanca,” “It’s the Romantic in me!”

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • qrtqrt Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2026 11:45AM

    .

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 16,297 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2025 2:55PM

    @JCH22 said:

    @Rittenhouse said:
    John Dannreuther and I recently completed a study of the Class II and III Restrike 1804 dollars. Briefly, characteristics common to all of the restrikes show that they were all struck at the same time and historical documents support the striking as being sometime between late 1859 and early summer of 1860.

    The characteristics allowed us to create the first emission sequence for Restrike 1804 dollars and that sequence shows that not only was the James A. Stack, Sr. Class III piece he first struck, but also that most of the Class III pieces were struck PRIOR to the lone surviving Class II coin. In fact, only the Linderman Class III piece is in a later die state than the lone Class II. This is, of course, completely the opposite of what many have previously proposed.

    For those interested in our findings, Stacks Bowers will be printing our monograph in the auction catalog. For those who do not get a copy of the catalog, we will be re-publishing the article later next year in the numismatic press.

    [edited for typo, thanks Mark)

    Second time you stated a dispositive opinion without providing any facts. If you are going to go with "sometime" 1859-60 as first and only re re striking, then what I intend to publish in a few months may call that conclusion into serious question. Mention as a courtesy only.

    Perhaps there are facts regarding that particular detail included in the article. Regardless, it sounds like you might have come to a different conclusion about the timing of the re-striking, but you haven’t yet presented any facts, either. In each case, I can appreciate that each of you would want to save such information until your articles are made available to the public.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • qrtqrt Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2026 11:46AM

    .

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:
    Perhaps there are facts regarding that particular detail included in the article.

    Bingo! Why would I "claim jump" our own article? If you want to see the evidence get a copy of the catalog or wait until we publish in another venue later next year.

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:

    Do hope this auction write up includes Secret Service Records, citations to 19th and 20th century litigation filings, and diaries and papers both domestic and foreign. Perhaps it might mention Stack's time as a Bankruptcy Trustee, and his connections, or not. Much, much more, to the story than die states of such a small sample size, and records contained only in NARA Record Group 104.

    What do Secret Service records, etc. have to do with die states, emission sequences, when these pieces were struck, who struck them, and when they first appeared ?

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    Oh yes, to answer JCH22's question as to whether the article was commissioned or paid for by StacksBowers, no it was not. We sent the article to them gratis because we thought it would be nice to have it in the catalog. Sometimes it ain't all about the Benjamins.

  • qrtqrt Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2026 11:46AM

    .

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:

    By asking that question, it is apparent your research was limited.

    Actually, your reply shows a poor understanding of die states and emission sequences. Further, your suggestion of Secret Service records and 19th and 20th century litigation is quite silly as the objective evidence shows there is nothing of interest to find there.

    The SS was not founded until well after the striking of these pieces and since these pieces regularly sold at auction from the 1870s on, there is obviously no litigation of any importance.

    Two period records provide some amusing anecdotes illustrating the foregoing. First, Linderman was under Congressional investigation for wrong-doing. Interestingly, while the charges include a stock scam, kickbacks, and illegally employing relatives, there was no mention of illegal striking. Henry died before the charges could be officially brought. Nonetheless, there were enough people pissed at him that the committee's report got read into the Congressional record.

    Then, in 1887, Mint Director James P. Kimball, who was seriously pissed-off at all of the illegal striking done by Lindeman and A. Loudon Snowden, had the Treasury Dept. seize Henry's collection which had been put up for auction. Several "patterns" were taken by the gov't, but, amusingly, the 1804 restrike dollar was not because his wife claimed he bought it from a coin dealer!

    Lastly, none of the records you suggested have significant relevance to the subjects at-hand, that being die states, emission sequence, who struck them, and when they were struck. The records we found were more than sufficient to establish the facts. Having said that, if you wish to investigate other records, feel free to do so.

    Then I can see no reason why you are unable/unwilling to post it here.

    Like I said, why would I claim jump our own article? I want interested parties to read the article. That is why I made the announcement that we had completed our study and that it would be published in the catalog. You seem to not grasp the purpose of an announcement.

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭✭

    @Rittenhouse said:

    I want interested parties to read the article.

    Where and when will this article be published?

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    @Exbrit said:

    @Rittenhouse said:

    I want interested parties to read the article.

    Where and when will this article be published?

    Like I said in my original post at top, it will be published in the StacksBowers catalog. Since the auction is in Dec., the printed catalog should be ready shortly. I do know that it went to layout a couple days ago.

    SB publishes their catalogs in downloadable PDF format available at: https://stacksbowers.com/auctions/catalog-library/. If you want hardcopy and are not on their mailing list, I suggest you call the NY location and ask how to purchase.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 33,630 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Secret Service has traditionally limited its interest in counterfeit detection to paper money. From their point of view, a counterfeit $20 bill was 20 times more important that a counterfeit dollar, or 2,000 times more important than a counterfeit 1909-SVDB cent.

    In the early 1980's when I was teaching an ANA Summer Seminar class on Counterfeit Detection I had a Secret Service Agent take the class. We chatted a bit and he said that at that time the S.S. had to rely entirely upon the Mint for expertise when the S.S. was involved in any case involving counterfeit coins, and it wanted to have one person on staff that knew something about counterfeit coins.

    Of course this does not mean that things were not different in the late 19th Century.

    Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author of "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.
  • qrtqrt Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2026 11:46AM

    .

  • RittenhouseRittenhouse Posts: 672 ✭✭✭✭

    However, none of the points you raise have the slightest implications on die states, the emission sequence, who struck the pieces, and when they were struck. 0 for 3.

  • ExbritExbrit Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭✭

    @JCH22 said:

    .

    @Rittenhouse said:

    @JCH22 said:

    By asking that question, it is apparent your research was limited.

    Actually, your reply shows a poor understanding of die states and emission sequences. Further, your suggestion of Secret Service records and 19th and 20th century litigation is quite silly as the objective evidence shows there is nothing of interest to find there.

    The SS was not founded until well after the striking of these pieces and since these pieces regularly sold at auction from the 1870s on, there is obviously no litigation of any importance.

    Two period records provide some amusing anecdotes illustrating the foregoing. First, Linderman was under Congressional investigation for wrong-doing. Interestingly, while the charges include a stock scam, kickbacks, and illegally employing relatives, there was no mention of illegal striking. Henry died before the charges could be officially brought. Nonetheless, there were enough people pissed at him that the committee's report got read into the Congressional record.

    Then, in 1887, Mint Director James P. Kimball, who was seriously pissed-off at all of the illegal striking done by Lindeman and A. Loudon Snowden, had the Treasury Dept. seize Henry's collection which had been put up for auction. Several "patterns" were taken by the gov't, but, amusingly, the 1804 restrike dollar was not because his wife claimed he bought it from a coin dealer!

    Lastly, none of the records you suggested have significant relevance to the subjects at-hand, that being die states, emission sequence, who struck them, and when they were struck. The records we found were more than sufficient to establish the facts. Having said that, if you wish to investigate other records, feel free to do so.

    Then I can see no reason why you are unable/unwilling to post it here.

    Like I said, why would I claim jump our own article? I want interested parties to read the article. That is why I made the announcement that we had completed our study and that it would be published in the catalog. You seem to not grasp the purpose of an announcement.

    Don’t engage ad hominin. But you can be assured my reading comprehension level is sufficient to process all you have written.

    If you did not sell the article to Stacks, (or others, or enter into some agreement concerning publication rights/distribution) what “claim” could there possibly be to jump? Its your own article, unencumbered by any limitations. Found it off putting - “I know the answer.” I will tell you later why it is the answer. But that is just my own personal view point as I find it cuts off any meaningful exchange of ideas. Others might like the trailers….. Appears premier is not long in the offing so will just wait and what it says. No need for further back and forth about that.

    Secret Service. which by the way was founded July 5, 1865, was certainly active during very relevant periods, including,-- but not limited to---- when it recovered Mr Stack’s ’33 double eagle.

    What you reference otherwise is a surface view of-- some-- previous well known facts from the 1870s and 80s. Some correctly stated, others not ( just one additional small example-- Linderman's 1804 was in fact seized, but released only after his Wife's letter to the probate court).

    Article is certainly well timed. Perhaps it will be so compelling Stacks will be resubmitting for some special designation (First Re Re strike). Not a question directed at you to answer. What holder it hammers in, original/relabeled will be sufficient to answer that.

    In the meanwhile- will just wait and see, as I do not think anything of substance can be discussed until then.

    When will your article be published and where will it appear?

  • qrtqrt Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2026 11:59AM

    the

  • qrtqrt Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2026 10:32AM

    .

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